For those who say the .410 is too small...

[DogMan 2,343]

All things being equal I think the 12 gauge definitely has the edge. But all things are never equal. Put a man with a .410 up against a man with a 12 gauge and the odds don't necessarily favor the man with the 12 gauge, they favor the man who can hit his target first. I'd say the best shotgun for any given person in a home defense situation is the largest caliber/gauge that the person is the most nimble and accurate with. For me thats the 12 gauge, but for many of small or frail stature it may be the .410.

[mgconnor13 206]

I agree with Azril that if all you got is .410 it beats a sharp stick hands down any day. You have to hit your target to kill/ incapacitate it. No point having a weapon if you can't use it to lay down effective fire. Shot placement is still more important then caliber. I've seen enough and read enough reports to know that there is no magic weapon or caliber out there. My prefferance is a 12 gauge bcause it's the most powerful weapon I can effectively use.

 

I'd say go with the most powerful weapon YOU can ACCURATELY and RAPIDLY fire in a high stress situation and then practice a lot with it. Have to hit your target first to kill it! Sounds overly simple but accurate fire is the first step to a kill.

 

One hit with a .410 is better then a dozen misses with any thing else hands down.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[VTX-1800 1]

IMO A 410. is just as deadly as a 12 if you hit where your aiming .

Texas Boy, 5, Shoots 800-Pound Alligator with 410. bird shot.

 

 

http://www.foxnews.c...,559103,00.html

[stiletto raggio 20]

Oops. Just posted this in a separate post.

[Azrial 1,091]

IMO A 410. is just as deadly as a 12 if you hit where your aiming .

Texas Boy, 5, Shoots 800-Pound Alligator with 410. bird shot.

http://www.foxnews.c...,559103,00.html

Wow! What kind of gun did the Gator have?

 

Oh, I see, it just lay there and bleed to death. Just so you know, that is not how it usually goes with people...

[hick 0]

IMO A 410. is just as deadly as a 12 if you hit where your aiming .

Texas Boy, 5, Shoots 800-Pound Alligator with 410. bird shot.

 

 

http://www.foxnews.c...,559103,00.html

 

That story amaizes me. Yeah I guess it's true. I've always thought gators are difficult toi kill.

 

As a kid I was out squirrel hunting with my H&R single shot 410. I came across a coon in a tree. I also trapped so I was up for some extra cash. After the first 5 rounds of #6 3" mags the coon was still well and alive. You really don't want to know how but let me just say I shortened the distance to the coon and gave him a few more shots. When all said and done I was out of bullets ended climbing up the tree and wacking him with a stick to finish him off.

[RoughRider666 47]

There have been stories of Moose, Elk, Feral hogs and even Elephant being taken with a .22 LR!

 

That does not mean that it is a good idea.

 

.410 is too small for for this purpose.

 

It worked didnt it?! STFU and quit knockin' everyone around here just because people decide to do something that YOU dont agree with! Nobody is disagreeing with you that the 12 is superior, but if thats all the man had to defend himself with, then thats the way it goes! Im pretty sure its safe to say that YOU wouldnt want to shot at with a .22LR much less of .410 shotgun of all things, so i suggest you stop reading / posting here on these boards if all your going to do is talk shit to people that post their thoughts and comments, because i feel im not alone here when i say that people are getting tired of your shit!

 

you have 30 minutes to reply to this post, or your "come back" is invalid...

Edited October 7, 2009 by RoughRider666

[volkov 318]

I think ultimately this can be summed up in that the .410 is inferior to the 12 for home defence, and thats not a big deal.. a 12 is inferior to a bullet proof robot armed with lazer beams comin out of its ass too.. Point is.. is a .410 sufficient? Probably.. It can kill, and it's probably better then what your attacker is going to be carryng.. It's not as effective or powerful as a 12.. but it's probably going to do the job and do it well..

 

Think the biggest problem here is buyers remorse on both sides.. When you spend a lot of money you want to believe you made the one and only right choice, but there isn't one right choice for everyone. For someone on a budget or someone who isn't the strongest person out there who recoil might be a worry.. the .410 was the right choice.. You saved money, hopefully you won't have to use it anyway, and if you do, your probably more armed then your attacker.. Hit him and he's not going to be feeling great anyway.. hit him a few times on semi auto and he's not a problem anymore.. Good! For people who bought the 12.. yup we spent a bit extra, the gun is more efficient for home defense.. hopefully we won't have to use it... (by use it I mean for home defense). I'm not entirely happy that my home defense gun costed more then yalls, but it was worth it to me.. and I'm sure getting a cheaper .410 was worth it to yall, and we're all probably going to be just fine and never have to use them anyway.. As for the police and military, they are in a line of work defined by combat, they are obviously going to want the more effective defense choice rather then the more economical since they are far more likely to use it several times for combat (against people tougher then your typical break and enter) and they need the edge and advantage a 12 provides rather then be concerned with prudent spending..

 

The problem is people tryng to convince themselves that

1) My .410 is just as good as a 12 for home defense because I want it to be regardless of reality! It's just as effective as a weapon!

or

2) My saiga 12 can kill people a .410 can't.. I want to justify the additional money I spent on it, so anything less can't do the same job with any sort of effectiveness!

 

Both are BS (and extremes that are used to prove a point, not saying anything is actually 100% of either mindset).. but it really comes down to what you want in the first place. I think we all realize a 12 is more effective, but a .410 does have considerable strength, enough to take down the bad guy, and won't break the bank.

 

Funny thing is.. I realized if I had got the .410 as my main HD gun, I would defend my decision by making fun of a friend with a 12 for spending more money.. Whereas currently I give my buddy a bit of grief for having a 20..

 

Frankly it probably would have been smarter for me to go with the .410.. but I want the 12 because its "better" in my opinion even if better simply is the difference between dead invader, and really dead invader and me having no money left to buy all the other crap I want..

 

but ultimately...

I still want a bullet proof robot with lasers..

Edited October 8, 2009 by volkov

[RoughRider666 47]

I think ultimately this can be summed up in that the .410 is inferior to the 12 for home defence, and thats not a big deal.. a 12 is inferior to a bullet proof robot armed with lazer beams comin out of its ass too.. Point is.. is a .410 sufficient? Probably.. It can kill, and it's probably better then what your attacker is going to be carryng.. It's not as effective or powerful as a 12.. but it's probably going to do the job and do it well..

 

Think the biggest problem here is buyers remorse on both sides.. When you spend a lot of money you want to believe you made the one and only right choice, but there isn't one right choice for everyone. For someone on a budget or someone who isn't the strongest person out there who recoil might be a worry.. the .410 was the right choice.. You saved money, hopefully you won't have to use it anyway, and if you do, your probably more armed then your attacker.. Hit him and he's not going to be feeling great anyway.. hit him a few times on semi auto and he's not a problem anymore.. Good! For people who bought the 12.. yup we spent a bit extra, the gun is more efficient for home defense.. hopefully we won't have to use it... (by use it I mean for home defense). I'm not entirely happy that my home defense gun costed more then yalls, but it was worth it to me.. and I'm sure getting a cheaper .410 was worth it to yall, and we're all probably going to be just fine and never have to use them anyway.. As for the police and military, they are in a line of work defined by combat, they are obviously going to want the more effective defense choice rather then the more economical since they are far more likely to use it several times for combat (against people tougher then your typical break and enter) and they need the edge and advantage a 12 provides rather then be concerned with prudent spending..

 

The problem is people tryng to convince themselves that

1) My .410 is just as good as a 12 for home defense because I want it to be regardless of reality! It's just as effective as a weapon!

or

2) My saiga 12 can kill people a .410 can't.. I want to justify the additional money I spent on it, so anything less can't do the same job with any sort of effectiveness!

 

Both are BS (and extremes that are used to prove a point, not saying anything is actually 100% of either mindset).. but it really comes down to what you want in the first place. I think we all realize a 12 is more effective, but a .410 does have considerable strength, enough to take down the bad guy, and won't break the bank.

 

Funny thing is.. I realized if I had got the .410 as my main HD gun, I would defend my decision by making fun of a friend with a 12 for spending more money.. Whereas currently I give my buddy a bit of grief for having a 20..

 

Frankly it probably would have been smarter for me to go with the .410.. but I want the 12 because its "better" in my opinion even if better simply is the difference between dead invader, and really dead invader and me having no money left to buy all the other crap I want..

 

but ultimately...

I still want a bullet proof robot with lasers..

 

Right you are my friend, So true! I think Azrial needs to read this post, and sit back and think about this next time before he just starts in on Bashing peoples ideas and comments here on the boards. Ultimately...people are going to buy what they want, and its nobodies business and quite frankly...opinions dont really matter as long as you are happy with your purchase!

[Azrial 1,091]

Right you are my friend, So true! I think Azrial needs to read this post, and sit back and think about this next time before he just starts in on Bashing peoples ideas and comments here on the boards. Ultimately...people are going to buy what they want, and its nobodies business and quite frankly...opinions dont really matter as long as you are happy with your purchase!

You really are as dumb as a sack of hammers aren't you? If it is "nobodies business" then why post it as a subject of debate on the Internet?

 

We are not talking about an opinion, we are talking about "fact" based on years of testing and observation. And here a Noob like you come along with your slap happy new age "we are all special little snowflakes" bullshit that tries to make all options equal, just because you really really really want them to be.

 

Look, I honestly have no problem with you using a .410, there are two many morons like yourself in the gene pool already.

[RoughRider666 47]

Right you are my friend, So true! I think Azrial needs to read this post, and sit back and think about this next time before he just starts in on Bashing peoples ideas and comments here on the boards. Ultimately...people are going to buy what they want, and its nobodies business and quite frankly...opinions dont really matter as long as you are happy with your purchase!

You really are as dumb as a sack of hammers aren't you? If it is "nobodies business" then why post it as a subject of debate on the Internet?

 

We are not talking about an opinion, we are talking about "fact" based on years of testing and observation. And here a Noob like you come along with your slap happy new age "we are all special little snowflakes" bullshit that tries to make all options equal, just because you really really really want them to be.

 

Look, I honestly have no problem with you using a .410, there are two many morons like yourself in the gene pool already.

 

Dumb as a sack of hammers huh? Thats original,lol...you're silly

 

...and by the way, i never once mentioned ANYTHING about equality in the 2 gauges...

Edited October 9, 2009 by RoughRider666

[volkov 318]

Azrial.. I've always respected nearly everything you've had to say.. but it is true that the .410 does meet the qualifications to satisfy some consumers, and frankly.. that's what matters.. I'm a 12 owner, and I'm of the same opinion on self defense as you (hence why I own the 12.. I do believe it's more effective).. which is why I own a 12.. But I really reckon a .410 is efficient enough to stop most thiefs and the cut in price is definately a bonus worth considering. Again.. it really comes down to the fact that having to use one is a rare occasion for the average civilian, and in most home defense (not police situations) the difference between a .410 and a 12 is dead attacker and REALLY dead attacker.. I really doubt anyones gonna fuck with someone who has a .410, especially after they've been hit by one.. I prefer my 12, but I really think the .410 will get the job done in home defense... Please don't hold it against me too much, before I made my account I watched this forum a good bit and I've really respected your opinions, especially given your experience with the police and your resolve to be an efficient officer who not only protects but respects our rights, but I really reckon in this case a .410 will do what is asked of it, maybe not as effectively as a 12, but effective enough.. Hell, it beats what most have for home defense, and it's damn affordable.. and a semi auto.. Considering the taurus judge (.410 capable pistol for those who don't know) is hailed as one of the BEST in car defense available, I feel a semi automatic with a bigger ammo capacity will do the job fine in most homes. Yes, odds say that with infinate repetition someone will die because they had a .410 instead of a 12 and they missed the shot in the critical situation and perhaps the 12 might of made a difference enough.. But odds are that's probably not the case for most individuals and the .410 is not only a sufficient but an afforadable and effective home defense weapon..

 

And if my spellings fucked up.. cheers.. I'm drunk, knock back a beer for me.. or whatever.. its fucking 11 on a friday.

[Azrial 1,091]

Azrial.. I've always respected nearly everything you've had to say.. but it is true that the .410 does meet the qualifications to satisfy some consumers, and frankly.. that's what matters.. I'm a 12 owner, and I'm of the same opinion on self defense as you (hence why I own the 12.. I do believe it's more effective).. which is why I own a 12.. But I really reckon a .410 is efficient enough to stop most thiefs and the cut in price is definately a bonus worth considering. Again.. it really comes down to the fact that having to use one is a rare occasion for the average civilian, and in most home defense (not police situations) the difference between a .410 and a 12 is dead attacker and REALLY dead attacker.. ...

Look if you have a .410 use it all you like to kill squirrels, rabbits and bottles. If it is all you have try to use it to defend yourself.

 

But all the wishing in the world, of you or any other consumer will not make the .410 enough of a round for properly serviceing a determined attacker.

 

You guys reckon a lot about killing an attacker, and how the .410 will kill. Who cares? A .22 short will kill as well, and perhaps even a BB in the eye, if you leave the wound untreated long enough. I mean who knows what kind of infection could set up in there? But what has any of that to do with stopping an armed determined attacker? Nothing.

 

Have either of you ever seen a wound delivered by a .410. or a 12, or any other round? I mean not while playing Halo3, but here in the real world where you get one (1) life? I have seen a lot of them and I carry no less then a 12.

 

Please do not waste a lot of time on the fallacious argument that, "I am not a policeman or other armed professional, I do not need such a serious firearm!" Ridiculous! The first and perhaps the only time that you ever have to deal with someone trying to kill you and your family I assure you it will be as dire to you as anything I have ever seen! I promise, you are not going to be standing there in the dark giggling, "Man, I am glad that I saved some bucks on this little S-410, hee, hee, hee!" No one ever complains that they brought too much gun or ammo to a firefight!

 

You are honestly quite welcome to carry anything that you like; my only purpose in this debate is not to allow your perhaps well meaning, but completely baseless posts from convincing a new firearms owner that the delusion that you are posting here is sound. I have no ax to grind with you personally.

 

On the other hand Roughrider666 comes across as just an idiot that wants to fit in and does so by posting a completely meaningless and ignorant retort to what I have taken a lot of time saying. If you have some facts or experience to back up your babble, post it, otherwise you are just some stupid noob that wants to make a reputation by debating your betters.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Azrial

[mgconnor13 206]

Get the the most powerfull weapon you can use. Practice with it A LOT!!!! Buy ammo that is suitable for home defense. Keep your gun (and defense ammo) handy and call it a day.

 

Reason there's so many calibers out there is there's no one size fits all solution. Every weapon and caliber was made for a specific purpose and designed to be good at it. Figure out what you need and want (needing and wanting are totaly different things) I learned to shoot shotguns on a bolt action 20 gauge but now I preffer semi autos or pump action 12 gauge 2 3/4 for fun and no probllem shooting 3 or 3-1/2 shells. Over time my abilities (both skill and purchasing power) have changed and my weapon and cailiber choice has changed with it.

 

Shoot some weapons, talk to some people, do some research on prices, ballistics, etc... figure out what is going to work for you and go for it.

 

Look at real life shootings. They tend to close, fast, chaotic and scary. (I've been in some SHTF situtions before it's fast, messy and scary) The guy who get rounds on target first tends to be the guy that walks away. Go for the gun that will let you kill, disable (killing being most prefferable) some one as quickly and easily as possible.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Rusty truck

[mgconnor13 206]

Here's some ballistic tests I found of .410 and 12 gauge.

 

This link is 12 gauge 00 buck

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page541.htm

 

This is for a .410 slug

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1973.htm

 

Both leave some nasty wound patterns penatration is pretty good too. I'm pretty sure I could kill some one with a .410 but I'd go bigger if possible just to be safe.

[Azrial 1,091]

..... Both leave some nasty wound patterns penatration is pretty good too. I'm pretty sure I could kill some one with a .410 but I'd go bigger if possible just to be safe.

What has "killing" got to do with stopping someone? It is just a byproduct and not even the desired end result. Your logic is flawed from the start.

 

Slugs are a band-aid to allow a shotgun to perform some of the tasks of a rifle, and poorly at that. They are not the preferred load of anyone that knows what they are doing with a shotgun. I have seldom used them, but usually carried some on duty, just in case I had to try and use my shotgun as a kind of limited rifle. When I also have a rifle in the car, I don't even bother with them.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Azrial

[RoughRider666 47]

Azrial, i sent you a PM man.

[mgconnor13 206]

I agree slugs are a band aid. Slugs are not suitible for defense in most cases. Shot guns are a CQB weapon by nature. If you're in your house protecting yourself guess what you're now fighting a closer quarter battle. In CQB things happen very very fast because distances are so close. Thats why professional practice like crazy for it. There is no room to be wrong.

 

Any one plan to shoot to wound next time you get attacked by a bear (or anything else for that matter) Probably not.

 

Not sure my logic is "flawed" so much as you're assumption that shooting some one is enough to stop them ever time. I would preffer not to kill but if you're using deadly force (a fire arm) to defend yourself then you are in a life or death senario and you can't afford to take any chances with you life. I' have formal training on how to fight and survive a gun fight and I don't mean some weekend course. I carry a weapon every day for a living.

 

Shooting some one will cause a lot of serious damage but until they bleed out (causing a lack of oxygen to the brain.) they are still very much a threat to you and those around you, especially if they are armed. Some one must loose about 20% of their blood before blood loss starts to really kick in. (go pour a quart or more of strawberry milk on your drive way to get an idea what that looks like, it's a lot of liquid)

 

This is why we have shooting drills like the Mozambique Drill for example. Some times shooting some one (repeatedly) in the chest just doesn't do it.

 

Reason I put those link up is to give people a chance to least get a little bit of a look at a ballistics test and get them thinking. I want people to think long and hard. We can play arms chair commandos all day but I rather look a actual tests, medical testimony and first hand experiances when making choices on things as important as self defense. I really want people to think long and hard about thier choice or weapon and ammo and be able to justify those chioces because if SHTF there is very little time to react. Being prepared is half the battle.

 

I'm sticking with my 12 gauge because it scares the crap out of Iraqis , during WWI that Germany filed protest against the use of trench guns by the Americans, marines used them in the pacific effectivelly during WWII, most major police deparments use 12 gauge to this day in some capacity, the military currently uses 12 gauge shotguns, shotguns are cheep and plentiful, ammo is easy to get. Well over century of steady use and millions of millions of sales( 12 gauge makes up roughly 50% of the shotguns sold in the US) is probably a good indicator something works. (I don't see any one talking crap about the AK-47 because only 75 million of them have been made. BTW some estimates figure there is about 500 million firearms in the world) I'm pretty sure most people can shoot a 12 gauge no problem since my little sister who weighs slightly over a 100 pounds can shoot my 870 with no problems. Her only complant is the gun gets heavy after awhile

 

is .410 cool? yes! does it have it's uses? absolutly! will I ever use one to protect myself? No

 

Don't want to start any pissing matchs so all of these is just my 2 cents and can be taken with a grain of salt. Hopefull who ever reads this stops, thinks and decides to so some more reasearch before settling on a HD gun. Remeber weapons are useless if you don't practice with it.

 

Old saying is true. "Practice makes perfect"

Don't forget "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" take you're time (but do it quickly) do it right you only get one chance when it's for real.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Rusty truck

[AndrewH 1]

Something I always think about when contemplating a defense weapon is killing my children or the neighbors through the wall. I'm pretty sure, unless the perp is severly doped up, that he is not going to rush towards the gun thats shooting him,reguardless of the caliber. How much power do you think it takes to kill someone exactly? I'd feel just fine with a 22 pistol, as long as it was semi auto, and held several rounds, (in case of a miss or returned fire). A miss is a miss, I find more comfort in a quick 2nd shot than hoping the powerful first shot makes its target.

 

Tell me, since this seems to be a prime group to argue the point... have you ever been shot? we're you robbing a house at that time? Were you still set on getting that jewelry after you took a hit? or we you more concerned with getting away alive?

 

of course what do I know, the first round in all my guns is a FMJ...

[Twinsen 86]

What the hell happened? This thread is back?

 

I thought we already came to the conclusion that Azrial thinks .410 sucks for home defense, and I think it is more powerful than pistol calibers that people rely on for home defense. And that there are people that agree with each of us.

 

Either way, if you can afford a Saiga-12...

[mgconnor13 206]

pistol < shotgun < bigger shotgun Can we all agree on that much?

 

I personal have never been shot, been shot at before. (glad that RPG missed) but I know people that have been shot and continued to fight on so don't expect any weapon to produce a one hit kill.

 

Some one probably won't come charging at you as you shoot at them (suicide bomber being a notible exception but they are kind of rare in the states right now) but that doesn't mean that your attacker can't still shoot you after they have been wounded (possibly several times).

 

Shotgun is currently the most desirable weapon for CQB/HD beacuse it provides the least chance of overpenatration but maximium hit probability. Any weapon that has enough penatration to kill has enough penatration to cause harm to some one in the next room(s).

 

Food for thought on penatration. Probably already seen it but it's a good visual.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm <-- Hangun and rifle rounds

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm <-- Shotgun

 

I like my Saiga 12 and I'm sticking with it till phaser rifles go on sale

Just make sure you make a wise and informed choice when picking a HD gun and ammo. Hopefully you never need them.

[44mag 0]

I agree slugs are a band aid. Slugs are not suitible for defense in most cases. Shot guns are a CQB weapon by nature. If you're in your house protecting yourself guess what you're now fighting a closer quarter battle. In CQB things happen very very fast because distances are so close. Thats why professional practice like crazy for it. There is no room to be wrong.

 

Any one plan to shoot to wound next time you get attacked by a bear (or anything else for that matter) Probably not.

 

Not sure my logic is "flawed" so much as you're assumption that shooting some one is enough to stop them ever time. I would preffer not to kill but if you're using deadly force (a fire arm) to defend yourself then you are in a life or death senario and you can't afford to take any chances with you life. I' have formal training on how to fight and survive a gun fight and I don't mean some weekend course. I carry a weapon every day for a living.

 

Shooting some one will cause a lot of serious damage but until they bleed out (causing a lack of oxygen to the brain.) they are still very much a threat to you and those around you, especially if they are armed. Some one must loose about 20% of their blood before blood loss starts to really kick in. (go pour a quart or more of strawberry milk on your drive way to get an idea what that looks like, it's a lot of liquid)

 

This is why we have shooting drills like the Mozambique Drill for example. Some times shooting some one (repeatedly) in the chest just doesn't do it.

 

Reason I put those link up is to give people a chance to least get a little bit of a look at a ballistics test and get them thinking. I want people to think long and hard. We can play arms chair commandos all day but I rather look a actual tests, medical testimony and first hand experiances when making choices on things as important as self defense. I really want people to think long and hard about thier choice or weapon and ammo and be able to justify those chioces because if SHTF there is very little time to react. Being prepared is half the battle.

 

I'm sticking with my 12 gauge because it scares the crap out of Iraqis , during WWI that Germany filed protest against the use of trench guns by the Americans, marines used them in the pacific effectivelly during WWII, most major police deparments use 12 gauge to this day in some capacity, the military currently uses 12 gauge shotguns, shotguns are cheep and plentiful, ammo is easy to get. Well over century of steady use and millions of millions of sales( 12 gauge makes up roughly 50% of the shotguns sold in the US) is probably a good indicator something works. (I don't see any one talking crap about the AK-47 because only 75 million of them have been made. BTW some estimates figure there is about 500 million firearms in the world) I'm pretty sure most people can shoot a 12 gauge no problem since my little sister who weighs slightly over a 100 pounds can shoot my 870 with no problems. Her only complant is the gun gets heavy after awhile

 

is .410 cool? yes! does it have it's uses? absolutly! will I ever use one to protect myself? No

 

Don't want to start any pissing matchs so all of these is just my 2 cents and can be taken with a grain of salt. Hopefull who ever reads this stops, thinks and decides to so some more reasearch before settling on a HD gun. Remeber weapons are useless if you don't practice with it.

 

Old saying is true. "Practice makes perfect"

Don't forget "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" take you're time (but do it quickly) do it right you only get one chance when it's for real.

 

 

Actually, practice makes permanent! Perfect practice makes perfect. you get the idea, just because you practice doesn't mean that you are doing it right.

[YARP 300]

WOW! I just came over here because I wanted more info on the .410 round for hunting small game, I saw this pissing match and just had to jump in. I recently bought a Leinad .410 double barrel (11" barrel) derringer from my neighbor for $50.00 plus some ammo. It'll be good for short range squirrel, rabbit, snake and maybe even bird if you walk up on them in the high grass (pretty common here in Michigan to almost walk on the pheasents/quail before they bust out of there hide) it's going in my long hike/bug out bag I'd rather have it than a .22. I really wanted to work up a round that could do some door breaching. I'll be honest I'm not sure if it's possible. I will say this to the guy who stopped a home invasion with a .410....Good shot bud, remember the sun shines on every dogs ass once in there life, don't think you'll be so lucky everytime. So .410 for a home defense gun, I suppose in a bind and that's all you had that'd do, but I sure as shit wouldn't bet my life on it. Nor even call it my go to gun.

I agree with Azrial that a 12 is a better way to go although this isn't about that.

comparing a .410 with 000 buckshot to a .44 Magnum is like comparing apples to oranges Twinsen. Yup your right they leave the barrel at about the same velocity, other than that THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The type of wound tract, how the actual bullet fragments, how it reacts when the round finally makes contact with the target....ALL DIFFERENT

If your using this as your HD gun because your afraid of over penatration, taking some basic classes to understand shooting "lanes" a little better.

[singleton300 0]

i would imagine a shot to the chest from a 410 is going to put a intruder back a few steps and the 2nd one would put them on the ground. its semi auto so 2 shots in less than a second. you would be crazy to think it wouldn't. just like a 40 s&w pistol. If the intruder hasn't starting running or givin up by then just keep firing. so, i would rely on one for home defense. i recently purchased a 410 as a shtf gun grab and go. ammo is lighter and god forbid i have to fire alot of rounds my shoulder won't feel it. JUST SOME INFO FOR PEOPLE ON THE FENCE ABOUT WHAT GAUGE.

[stiletto raggio 20]

Okay, guys. Apples to apples. 15 round mag of .410 OO buck = 75 pellets. 5 round mag of 3" mag 12 gauge OO buck = 75 pellets. If you go to a longer magazine in the S-12, say, a factory eight, you will get a magazine about the same length as the 15 round .410 mag but quite a bit heavier. Overall, for a given length, the 12 gauge offers about a 50% advantage in terms of total pellets carried. Still, for arguments sake, lets compare attributes at the same capacity.

 

The length of the 15 round .410 mag is obviously longer. The weight of the magazines should be similar but the 12 gauge mag will be a little lighter.

 

The .410 is much lighter than the 12 gauge.

 

Velocity with either loads is roughly equal, but varies slightly with barrel length and individual guns.

 

Recoil with 15 pellet magnum loads is very stout, even with a Gunfixr knob set on 1-. Recoil with the .410 "magnum" loads is about like a .223 rifle, but with much less muzzle blast.

 

The argument is fundamentally similar to the .223 vs .308 argument. Higher capacity and lighter recoil versus lower capacity and more power. The primary difference is that--pellet for pellet- the .410 and 12 gauge are ballistically identical. That is, one pellet from either has the same velocity and external ballistics.

 

The 12 gauge is the better-developed platform. A 20 round drum, despite its weight, gives the S-12 a dramatic advantage in firepower over the .410 (or, for that matter, any tube-fed 12). The question is, do you need or want that firepower at the expense of weight and recoil?

 

For me, the answer is yes. I have an S-12 by my bed, not one of my .410s.

 

BUT if I were going to recommend a home defense gun for my sister, I would absolutely go with the .410. It still beats the hell out of a pistol-caliber carbine for in-home use and the recoil is entirely negligible. When I am 80 years old, I may be keeping the .410 by my bed.

 

So, if the question is, "which is better for an able-bodied man or woman who shoots regularly?" the 12 gauge wins. But for small-framed, elderly, inexperienced or young shooters, the .410 gets my nod.

[regal 2]

I've always kept a 9mm Glock by the bed with a light and LEO +P+ JHP. I always figured this 19 round gun was plenty powerful enough, I am surprised that folks consider the .410 saiga inadequate. My issue with using a .410 AK for home defense would be the legal/politics of it. A converted shotgun that shoots 15 rounds and looks like an AK would be hard to xplain in court, while a 9mm Glock well thats what the police carry.