AK Counterfeiting Expose on Russian TV

[DLT 1,646]

How did we go from the Russians vs Arsenal to ugly Russian cars?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

And let's not forget the pinnacle of Cold War East Germany automotive technology:

 

the Trabant

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant

 

Yes - but unlike the old Soviet cars, the Trabant has become something of a cult status symbol in Germany. Old Trabants sell for many times their original purchase price.

 

http://autos.trovit.de/autos/trabant-601-verkaufen

 

Back to Izhmash claims to exclusivity... Perhaps the Russian should take the Colt 1911 design (no longer protected by patents) as an example and simply call it a day. Or even better yet - build a really good 1911 that retails for under $400, and simply capture a big chunk of the world market for 1911's.

 

With regard to AR15/M16. Before the cold war ended, nothing would have stopped the Chinese, Bulgarians, Russians, Romanians ... the list goes on - from making knockoffs - so that shoots down their false indignation regarding licensing. Where knock offs are concerned, the AK47 has been the universal weapon of choice. It is excellent in 7.62, and in my opinion even better in 12 gauge.

[Azrial 1,091]

Back to Izhmash claims to exclusivity... Perhaps the Russian should take the Colt 1911 design (no longer protected by patents) as an example and simply call it a day. Or even better yet - build a really good 1911 that retails for under $400, and simply capture a big chunk of the world market for 1911's ...

The Chinese have already beat them to it with the Norinco 1911. I would not say, "really good," but serviceable.

[BrutalGardener 205]

From what I remember there may have been a few million private cars in soviet days. There is no way in hell Lada is one of the best selling cars ever - it is simply delusional. All I remember is foul gas-smelling POS car and also puking in one as a 6-yr old when I rode it the first time.

 

You are not taking into account the fact that the car was widely exported all over the Comblock countries, as well as Western countries and even ones like Brazil. I remember reading that Lada Riva was one of the most popular budget cars in the UK and that the first year of selling them in Canada, about 31,000 units were sold.

 

Also, I remember liking riding in them, although it was an exciting event for me to be riding in any car.

Edited August 26, 2009 by SpetsnazGRU

[BrutalGardener 205]

A lot of people here and elsewhere tend to say "Russia did this and Russia did that", while talking about the USSR, implying that Russia can be blamed for all of its sins. They should realize that the Russian Federation, despite assuming many of the USSR's responsibilities, such as all of its international debt (the price they had to pay for keeping the UN Security Council seat and most of the weapon stock-piles), is not the USSR. Russia's population is less than half that of the USSR's and two of the longest-lasting Soviet leaders were not even Russian (Georgian and Ukrainian). Russia was also one of the first republics to declare its independence from the USSR back in 1990. The Russians were oppressed by the Bolsheviks and their bureaucratic descendants just like everyone else in that "Union".

[BrutalGardener 205]

Back on topic... So, do you guys think that Arsenal has an official deal with IzhMash/Legion for these SGL rifles that they have been mass-producing (my local gun store has like 10 of them now) lately? Or do they go through a third party to get the unconverted Legion Saigas?

Edited August 26, 2009 by SpetsnazGRU

[sudaevpps43 31]

Back on topic... So, do you guys think that Arsenal has an official deal with IzhMash/Legion for these SGL rifles that they have been mass-producing (my local gun store has like 10 of them now) lately? Or do they go through a third party to get the unconverted Legion Saigas?

 

RAAC is supposed to have an exclusive arrangement with Izhmash, so my guess is that Arsenal gets Legion Saigas from some middleman, not from Izhmash directly.

[crackback 135]

I'm curious, did the US ever pay Germany for the rocket technology we stole from them at the end of the WWII?

 

To the victor go the spoils. No payment required. They declared war on us, remember? They are just lucky Bavaria was not renamed New Texas.

Edited August 26, 2009 by 690gr

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

A lot of people here and elsewhere tend to say "Russia did this and Russia did that", while talking about the USSR, implying that Russia can be blamed for all of its sins. They should realize that the Russian Federation, despite assuming many of the USSR's responsibilities, such as all of its international debt (the price they had to pay for keeping the UN Security Council seat and most of the weapon stock-piles), is not the USSR. Russia's population is less than half that of the USSR's and two of the longest-lasting Soviet leaders were not even Russian (Georgian and Ukrainian). Russia was also one of the first republics to declare its independence from the USSR back in 1990. The Russians were oppressed by the Bolsheviks and their bureaucratic descendants just like everyone else in that "Union".

 

No offense intended. I understand that the Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union. You brought up the Russian "expose", and I was simply opining that it was probably much ado about nothing, and a very good excuse for the Russian film crew to go to Vegas for a few days.

 

I remember seeing Ladas for sale in Tucson in the 70's and 80's. So, obviously there was an international market for the car. I have to say, I never saw a Trabant for sale in US classifieds.

 

Regarding the difference between the former CCCP, and the Russian Federation - someone needs to explain the fine points to Putin.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

WS

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I'm curious, did the US ever pay Germany for the rocket technology we stole from them at the end of the WWII?

 

To the victor go the spoils. No payment required. They declared war on us, remember? They are just lucky Bavaria was not renamed New Texas.

 

That's REALLY funny!!! Actually if you check the history of Texas immigration, it's really amazing that Texas was not called New Bavaria (Neu Bayern)... gel? Es waren nicht die Deutschen die Krieg gegen die USA gefuehrt haben, sondern die Nationalsozialsten.

 

Translation.... "It wasn't the Germans that declared War on the US. It was the National Socialist Party". National Socialists have since been outlawed in Germany. IMO, they appear to be running amok here. How ironic that Nancy Pelosi, would characterize OTHERS as Nazis, when the German National Socialist agenda so closely paralles her own.

[Reverendfranz 160]

Trabants are fun little cars, i wouldnt mind having one, really. Theres a local chick here who built up an old Trabant for a lowrider show, did a great job. In adition to the normal hydraulics, at the touch of a button, the car extends in length to transform (true transformers style) into a small pickup truck. Dont think she kept the two stroke though

 

Back on topic, as far as i know, the chinese, which someone mentioned here, were produced under license with soviet support. I dont care for US patent or copyright law, so i could not care less, but in all rights, if i was to use that standard as the ideal the russians would be well within their rights to claim intelectual theft. Luckily, they didnt figure out that progress retarding money grubbing scheme until recently, and the design is up for grabs.

[uzitiger 193]

How much military technology did the Soviets steal from the US? Look at their fighter and bomber aircraft, the resemblance to the F-15 and B-1 bombers is uncanny. They stole a lot of American know how.

[t165 30]

IIRC America spent billions developing the "Gadget" only to have a Russian spy/collaborator steal much of the technology from the manhattan project. This saved Russia years and billions of dollar which they would have had to spend. So lets start adjusting that amount into todays dollars plus interest and they can reinburse Uncle Sam for a start.

[BrutalGardener 205]

IIRC America spent billions developing the "Gadget" only to have a Russian spy/collaborator steal much of the technology from the manhattan project. This saved Russia years and billions of dollar which they would have had to spend. So lets start adjusting that amount into todays dollars plus interest and they can reinburse Uncle Sam for a start.

 

I hate to be an ass here, but once again, please keep in mind that the Russian Federation is not the USSR.

[BrutalGardener 205]

How much military technology did the Soviets steal from the US? Look at their fighter and bomber aircraft, the resemblance to the F-15 and B-1 bombers is uncanny. They stole a lot of American know how.

 

The F-15 itself resembles a streamlined MiG-25 and the Tu-160 bomber borrowed a lot of its design elements from the "Soviet Concord" Tu-144, which contrary to popular belief, came out before the Concord. Also, although the "Blackjack" probably lacks in avionics when compared to the "Lancer", it completely blows it away in all other capabilities, which makes it an aircraft with a different role. In addition, the F-117's shape and stealth geometry were largely based on the work of a Soviet physicist Ufimtsev, which was published in the 60's .

 

Nevertheless, there is no disputing that the KGB did get a lot of technology from the US (can you blame them?), but the Soviets were never quite as blatant at copying our stuff as the Chinese were in copying both Soviet and US stuff.

[Azrial 1,091]

IIRC America spent billions developing the "Gadget" only to have a Russian spy/collaborator steal much of the technology from the manhattan project. This saved Russia years and billions of dollar which they would have had to spend. So lets start adjusting that amount into todays dollars plus interest and they can reinburse Uncle Sam for a start.

 

I hate to be an ass here, but once again, please keep in mind that the Russian Federation is not the USSR.

Very true! But then again, the Russian Federation did not invent the AK, the USSR did and they are a part of history...

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

IIRC America spent billions developing the "Gadget" only to have a Russian spy/collaborator steal much of the technology from the manhattan project. This saved Russia years and billions of dollar which they would have had to spend. So lets start adjusting that amount into todays dollars plus interest and they can reinburse Uncle Sam for a start.

 

I hate to be an ass here, but once again, please keep in mind that the Russian Federation is not the USSR.

Very true! But then again, the Russian Federation did not invent the AK, the USSR did and they are a part of history...

 

It all comes out in the wash... They steal our washing machines sell them to the proletariat, US entrepenuers copy the AK, put it in a plastic shell, call it an AA12, make "118 improvements" and spend a fortune attempting to sell it to the Marines who know it is basically a 12 gauge AK in a plastic shell - and tell the hucksters to go f**k themselves because if they want 12 gauge AK's clad in plastic they can go down and buy them at their local US gun shop .

 

God bless America.. and the Russian Federation too!

 

JHMO

 

WS

[MikeD 541]

IIRC America spent billions developing the "Gadget" only to have a Russian spy/collaborator steal much of the technology from the manhattan project. This saved Russia years and billions of dollar which they would have had to spend. So lets start adjusting that amount into todays dollars plus interest and they can reinburse Uncle Sam for a start.

 

I hate to be an ass here, but once again, please keep in mind that the Russian Federation is not the USSR.

Very true! But then again, the Russian Federation did not invent the AK, the USSR did and they are a part of history...

 

It all comes out in the wash... They steal our washing machines sell them to the proletariat, US entrepenuers copy the AK, put it in a plastic shell, call it an AA12, make "118 improvements" and spend a fortune attempting to sell it to the Marines who know it is basically a 12 gauge AK in a plastic shell - and tell the hucksters to go f**k themselves because if they want 12 gauge AK's clad in plastic they can go down and buy them at their local US gun shop .

 

God bless America.. and the Russian Federation too!

 

JHMO

 

WS

You may want to research the AA-12 a little better. The AA-12 is American through and though. It was designed a mile from my childhood home. Back in 1971. And when it was sold to Jerry Baber he made over 200 changes.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

IIRC America spent billions developing the "Gadget" only to have a Russian spy/collaborator steal much of the technology from the manhattan project. This saved Russia years and billions of dollar which they would have had to spend. So lets start adjusting that amount into todays dollars plus interest and they can reinburse Uncle Sam for a start.

 

I hate to be an ass here, but once again, please keep in mind that the Russian Federation is not the USSR.

Very true! But then again, the Russian Federation did not invent the AK, the USSR did and they are a part of history...

 

It all comes out in the wash... They steal our washing machines sell them to the proletariat, US entrepenuers copy the AK, put it in a plastic shell, call it an AA12, make "118 improvements" and spend a fortune attempting to sell it to the Marines who know it is basically a 12 gauge AK in a plastic shell - and tell the hucksters to go f**k themselves because if they want 12 gauge AK's clad in plastic they can go down and buy them at their local US gun shop .

 

God bless America.. and the Russian Federation too!

 

JHMO

 

WS

You may want to research the AA-12 a little better. The AA-12 is American through and though. It was designed a mile from my childhood home. Back in 1971. And when it was sold to Jerry Baber he made over 200 changes.

 

You are fortunate to be so close to the builder Mike. The "118 changes" was quoted from a piece I read on the gun. The current builder may well have made over 200 changes to the 1971 version. We'll have to agree to disagree on the inspiration for the design. Having seen one unclad, the AA-12 appears to me to be at its core an AK type gas operated shotgun.

 

While the AA-12 shotgun is very impressive - its basic operation does not appear to be radically different from that of the S12. I do give the creator great credit for scooping Izhmash by about twenty years, chambering the 1971 design in 12 gauge. And, I don't think anyone would argue that there is much Izhmash could do much to improve the build quality and consistency of the guns it exports to the US.

 

The Frag 12 ammo is just plain sick. I'd love to have a case or two.

 

In terms of being off the mark and comparing apples to oranges - I just don't think that is the case Mike. I should be clear that some of my comments regarding the AA-12 were tongue in cheek, and that my opinions regarding the apparent similarities between the AA-12 and AK platforms are based solely upon my own observations. The AA-12's builders claims to the effect that his gun is the most lethal in the world have to be taken with a degree of healthy skepticism if one is truly familiar with the S12 and knows the guns full capabilities.

 

My preference is for the original Kalashinkov design. If it were up to me, every US soldier who wanted to use an S12 in the field would have one in his or her hands today.

 

BTW, I use your 20 round drum in my own S12's, and love it.

 

WS