termite 463 Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Got rousted out of bed this morning with the neighbors 3 mangy muts scrapping, shitting, and acting a fool in my front yard, went out the front door in my drawers to cap some ass, and only got one shot off, Pissed off, I go back in to get my 10/22 and they are gone by then. Came home from the shop and was shooting it off the back deck and it may run 1, may run 3, may run 8, but for some ungodly reason, most of the jams are getting stuck between the bolt and cover, a few where even stuck long ways, in line with the bolt, between bolt and cover. I cleaned the crap out of the gun, changed mags, ammo, and it still did it. It's like the bolt is short cycling, but when you look, there's a round already in the chamber, could the bolt be out running the shells ejecting. I was shooting winchester 3" #4 shot, then Fiochi 3" #6, then Federal 3" #6, had the gas setting on 1, but changed it to 2 and it ran a full 10 round factory Russian mag(got 4). When you run the gas plug down, it'll stop between 1 & 2, back it off to 1 and shoot and jam, back it off to 2 and it ran a mag. tried another full mag on 2 and it did it again after 8 rounds, so I backed it off again to 1, did it after 2 rounds. Best I can tell, there is only 1 hole drilled in the barrel for gas, and shake the gun and you can hear the gas puck flopping up and down. This gun has never had ANY problems and it's got to be something simple. Oh yeh, there is also about a 1/8" hole drilled in the bottom of the gas tube, and you can see that it's been venting gas, but why would it just start screwing up now. I was thinking about taking it apart and drilling the gas hole in the barrel slightly bigger........any thoughts???????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 I got stuck on the part about the dogs.. anyway with all your posts I'm probably just saying stuff you already know, but I'll try anyway.. First it outa be set to 2 for lighter rounds if your having FTE, second you outa look at the posts about looking for the gas holes.. On my gun when you look in it looks like only one hole, but if you feel close to the edge of the circle with a safety pin you can find two more.. If you only have one it might need work and you can send it in for repairs.. Also, if it's been working well all this time it could be related to another part of the gun- like the spring. I think that firing high brass on setting 2 can cause damage to the spring so that it doesn't work as it used to. That would be my main guess anyway, if it's been working fine and it's well cleaned, the holes havn't changed, so I would think the spring is probably damaged (might look fine but could still be overcompressed- I'm sure that's the wrong word but I can't think how else to describe it).. Anyway hope that helps.. And I'm still confused about the shooting dogs part, seems like that's a good way to wind up in trouble, even if they are irritating Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Only one gas port in the 410. Sounds like an extractor issue, check to make sure the extractor moves and is not stuck in place or the spring is broken or jammed. If the extractor is not properly engaging the shell rim, it will let the empty come loose before it engages the ejector. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Thanks Vankiller, I thought that I "checked" it, but will again this afternoon when I get home, and Volkov, we have a thing called a leash law down here, calling the animal control people does no good, the sheriff only laughs and ask "you called us for WHAT". So when the neighbor refuses to maintain his animals and they continue to shit in my yard, on my driveway, on my walkway going to the front steps, dump over the trash cans and make a mess in my yard, and bark at me and my wife when we go out into our own yard. I can and WILL take care of the problem. It's not really the dogs that need some buck shot, but the owner, but he's always running the roads dealing his meth, pot, and other stuff. You should have heard it on our street Monday morning, the wife said that about 8:30 that morning, 4 different people on the street where blasting away at them, not only are these dogs fast, but they seem to be pretty smart. But if you take a shell, open it up, dump out the shot and refill it with Okra seeds, it's pretty fun to pop that ass with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Ah, well I wasn't worried for the dogs, love dogs myself but if they arn't cared for and a menace, sometimes the solution sucks (it's crossed my mind more then a few times, but I couldn't get away with even yelling at them here.. some neighbors are lame). Was more worried that you'd wind up in a fix, but if thats not the issue have fun. And sorry about my ignorance of .40 gas holes.. still might be the spring though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Vankiller, I checked the extractor and it's fine, the spring is holding tight tension on it. Haven't shot any today, the fricking rain has come back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 ....Came home from the shop and was shooting it off the back deck and it may run 1, may run 3, may run 8, but for some ungodly reason, most of the jams are getting stuck between the bolt and cover, a few where even stuck long ways, in line with the bolt, between bolt and cover. I cleaned the crap out of the gun, changed mags, ammo, and it still did it. It's like the bolt is short cycling, but when you look, there's a round already in the chamber, could the bolt be out running the shells ejecting. I was shooting winchester 3" #4 shot, then Fiochi 3" #6, then Federal 3" #6, had the gas setting on 1, but changed it to 2 and it ran a full 10 round factory Russian mag(got 4). When you run the gas plug down, it'll stop between 1 & 2, back it off to 1 and shoot and jam, back it off to 2 and it ran a mag. tried another full mag on 2 and it did it again after 8 rounds, so I backed it off again to 1, did it after 2 rounds. Best I can tell, there is only 1 hole drilled in the barrel for gas, and shake the gun and you can hear the gas puck flopping up and down. This gun has never had ANY problems and it's got to be something simple. Oh yeh, there is also about a 1/8" hole drilled in the bottom of the gas tube, and you can see that it's been venting gas, but why would it just start screwing up now. I was thinking about taking it apart and drilling the gas hole in the barrel slightly bigger........any thoughts???????? Besides the dogs, I have been having the same problem. Failures to eject! Jambs in the bolt cover! I kind of bought the gun for my wife, but she hates it because it's not reliable. I love the gun though. I have tried cleaning, lubricating etc. and still have intermittent jambs. Seems to not have enough energy transmitted through the gas system to fully push the bolt back. I have looked at the Saiga-12 Vodka Special link and focused my attention on the failure to eject portion. There doesn't seem to be a lot of specific info on the .410 gas systems on this forum. I found out just now from this thread that the .410 only has one port. As in "termite's" example, there is about a 1/8" vent hole in the bottom of my gas tube. It's located behind the puc and vents between the gas tube and the barrel. If I use the Vodka Special link's advice, the hole maybe needs to be welded shut or restricted. One thing I did not see much discussion on in the Saiga forum is awareness of the small gas vent hole on the gas block hidden by the foreend on the left side (barrel facing left). If you remove the plastic factory foreend and replace it with another, you may notice that you lose reliability on ejects, like a complete loss of pressure when you eject. This is caused by a lack of back pressure provided by the close proximity of the factory foreend to the gas venting port. To ensure full energy entering my gas system, we TIG welded this hole on the side of the gas block shut. This ensures all the energy can be used to cycle the bolt especially with light 8-shot. I would like to be able to run any 3 inch round through my Saiga-410. Has anyone done any Saiga-410 specific modifications to the Gas System? Has anyone welded up or restricted the vent hole? Would an upgrade to a Twister Puc or addition of "Gunfixers" gas plug help? Thanks for any advice you can send my way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I'm by no means an expert on everything Saiga, but my understanding is that hole behind the puck helps vent the air behind it so that it can come back easier when the gas hits it in the front. Some gas DOES come out of it when the puck is all the way back, but I don't think its purpose is to vent the gas really. I could be wrong though, but that's what I've heard a few preople on the board say. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Corbin is correct on the gas system. One hole is all that is drilled in this gun. This may sound like a dumb question, but you do know there are specific 2 1/2 inch and 3 inch mags ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Corbin is correct on the gas system. One hole is all that is drilled in this gun. This may sound like a dumb question, but you do know there are specific 2 1/2 inch and 3 inch mags ? Yes "VanKiller", I am aware of different Mags for the .410 . My questions are related to my 3 inch mags. This Saiga .410 has one hole in the Barrel and another hole that Vents out between the Barrel and the Gas Tube. My Gas Puck rattles around. It fits loosely. I can hear it click back and forth when I tip the Gun. I believe it would do this with or without a Vent hole. Which means that there is no contact between the Gas Piston and the Puck until it's fired. The Puck also has grooves in it to allow gas to pass around it. From my understanding of engineering, the Saiga Shotgun Gas System is kind of built like a balloon, except the rate at which the gas escapes is adjusted by the Gas Knob (for Magnum & Lighter Loads). If I add an extra hole (ie: the Vent Hole), then the pressure is reduced resulting in a lighter recoil and "failure to eject" from lighter loads. Before I go crazy and weld-up or restrict the Vent Hole, I am going to try a Reduced Power Recoil Spring and a Twister Puck (Standard and Magnum), maybe a Gunfixers Gas Knob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) That's probably a good idea. I wouldn't weld the hole until you've exhausted the other methods to resolve the issue. Actually, I wouldn't weld it up at all. Just the engineer in ME thinking here.....I may be mistaken, but if the hole WAS welded up, wouldn't that also create a collumn of air that would act as a buffer to the rearward movement of the puck? By the time the gas gets to the vent hole, I think it has already imparted the inertia to the bolt carrier extension, which is what it's supposed to do. I don't know if the gas serves any more purpose after that. Edited December 11, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Just the engineer in ME thinking here.....I may be mistaken, but if the hole WAS welded up, wouldn't that also create a collumn of air that would act as a buffer to the rearward movement of the puck? By the time the gas gets to the vent hole, I think it has already imparted the inertia to the bolt carrier extension, which is what it's supposed to do. I don't know if the gas serves any more purpose after that. So your saying the Puck acts like a Hammer against the Gas Piston? I thought that there was some gas pushing against the Gas Piston directly like the 7.62 rifles, they don't have a Puck do they? I thought they put the Puck in the shotguns to help diffuse the gas going to the Gas Piston and keep out the extra wadding and powder residue. Thanks for the replies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 What I bought for my .410 from CSS to solve my FTE: Standard - Gogun Twister Puck (part of a 2 pack) Magnum - Gogun Twister Puck (part of a 2 pack) Gunfixers Gas Plug JTE Competition Mainspring #2 Competition Reduced Power Recoil Spring Installed everything except the "Magnum Puck". Test firing Winchester Xpert Game/Target Steel Shot, 410, 3", 1400 FPS, 3/8 oz, 6 Shot. 15 rounds in a Surefire 15 round Mag. Gunfixers setting #3. Shot flawlessly! Test firing Golden Bear Buck-shot Brass Plated Steel Case, 410, 2 3/4", #4 Buck - 5 Pellets. 10 rounds in a Surefire 15 round Mag. Gunfixers setting #-1. Failure to feed! Gunfixers setting #+1 Failure to feed! Gunfixers setting #2 Failure to feed! Way to much recoil! Results: I believe the #2 Competition Reduced Power Recoil Spring does not have enough energy to push in the Brass Plated Cases on the Brown Bear ammo. I will try the Standard Recoil Spring and/or the "Magnum Puck". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 (edited) Check the receiver af the front and rear of the mag 'hole'. A slight bend at either place will cause FTE,or FTFeed. The steel hulls have a thicker rim and also slightly larger diameter. A mis aligned mag will screw up with them before it will with American sized rounds. Edited January 13, 2010 by G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Don't go welding up any holes trying to fix things. The gun was designed that way and others have no problems with the same design. The puck IS the "piston". It is also referred to as a tappet. That's because it acts like a cue ball and uses energy it gets from the gas ports to propel it into the bolt carrier extension....the part that's called the piston on a normal AK rifle. If you look at one closely that's been fired a lot you can see a circlular impression on the backside from hitting against the carrier extension to cycle the weapon. You don't want to close off that gas relief hole in the gas block. It won't help it cycle any better if you do. The gas doesn't do anything for the bolt carrier extension itself, the puck does all that is necessary. If you removed the puck and tried it, it would not cycle without it. It was probably mentioned already back there somewhere but, does it do any better with the factory 4 rd mag? Mine will cycle the steel hulls better with the four rdrs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 (edited) Check the receiver at the front and rear of the mag 'hole'. A slight bend at either place will cause FTE,or FTFeed. The steel hulls have a thicker rim and also slightly larger diameter. A mis aligned mag will screw up with them before it will with American sized rounds. It was probably mentioned already back there somewhere but, does it do any better with the factory 4 rd mag? Mine will cycle the steel hulls better with the four rdrs. Thanks for the fast replies. I am going to "Bump" this string to Failure to Feed-Mag Problems? Edited January 13, 2010 by TickNC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted January 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Mine still does it, even with the factory 4 rounders, factory 10 rounders or the 15 round mags, but it's not a consistant FTE, may get off 1 round or may get off 5 rounds before it does it, but it's going to have a FTE. This has got be a "simple as hell gremlin" hiding somewhere inside there that I'm missing, but where is it hiding???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 "termite", I am just barely past "Newbie" status here and I am not sure which of the parts I put in solved my FTE. It could be I am getting a better Gas seal from the new Puck or it could be the lighter Recoil and Main Springs. From my results, it sounds like "volkov" may have had the best explanation to your FTE: ....That would be my main guess anyway, if it's been working fine and it's well cleaned, the holes havn't changed, so I would think the spring is probably damaged (might look fine but could still be overcompressed.... It also appears you had some slightly better results on the Gas setting #2: ...had the gas setting on 1, but changed it to 2 and it ran a full 10 round factory Russian mag(got 4). When you run the gas plug down, it'll stop between 1 & 2, back it off to 1 and shoot and jam, back it off to 2 and it ran a mag. tried another full mag on 2 and it did it again after 8 rounds, so I backed it off again to 1, did it after 2 rounds... You may want to try the Gunfixers Gas Plug, like I did. What ever you do, it's apparent you will need to replace a part or two. Happy Shooting! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted January 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Tick, The gun's not by any means a new one, although I did buy it new, it's got about 3-400 rounds thru it, if not more. It would dump a full mag before the cat could get into high gear. I may try the gas puck and see. It just pisses me off that I can't trust it to cycle. This was my go to gun for popping ferrel cats around the house and it has never failed me to dust their ass, until it started having problems. I spotted 4 more critters yesterday, in the woods behind our house, and am starting to have paw prints all over my truck, along with more scratches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted February 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Well, I went to the range on Sunday to sight in a couple .308's I got, my AR57, and play with the .410. Took the .410 down to the shotgun range, loaded up a 10 rounder, of winchester hi brass, on setting #1, first round jammed, moved it to #2, added 1 more shell to mag, and SHAZAM, it ran all 10 rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger, I loaded another mag and tried it again, this time it hung up on the 8th round. Since I took 100 rounds with me, I said screw it, I'll see what it does, the jams where ALL random. Got home, took it apart to clean, and noticed when I took the the screw plug (for lack of better words) off of the gas plug, I got black "carbon shit" from hell when I turned the gun upside down to drop out the plug, after shaking the shit out of the gun, it finally fell out. The gas hole was clean and the "carbon shit" wasn't really that hard, some pieces seemed rather gummy and sticky. The gun was clean as a whistle when I started, so is this Winchester ammo that damn nasty. If I had thought, I'd have brought my camera with me to take a pic of how the shells are getting stuck, I just wonder if the shells are sticking in the chamber when getting extracted and coming loose, BUT, on EACH failure, there was already a NEW shell already in the chamber when it jammed. Any thoughts?????????????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 I had similar problems with the Winchester Xpert Game/Target Steel Shot, 410, 3", 1400 FPS, 3/8 oz, 6 Shot. I bought the cheapest 3" shells from the place that lets me "Save Money. Live Better." about $13 a box of 25. I may be wrong here, but It seems I have had the same problems with some Federal's I ran through. I can't even remember what type they were. The fluted casings on them were a little too flexible. I was so dissatisfied with the Federal's I did not buy them again. My experience has been that the Gas Puck was so fouled, it would not come out. I had to remove the Bolt Assembly and stick a rod up the Gas Tube to get the Puck out. It took some force too (had to tap on it). After removal, I found (besides the burned piston look), the Puck was heavily caked with carbon. I have not checked to see if I have the same problem with the new Twister Puck installed. I try to at least clean out the Plug/Puck area each time I use it. I know they sell a "SAIGA Shotgun Gas Block Cleaning Kit", it sounds like a good idea to have. I just use the brushes out of my cleaning kit and a paper clip or pick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted February 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 OK, just cleaned the gun, changed the extractor spring (only one I could find for an AK was at Kvar), it ran 5 rounds then jammed, ran 1, then jammed. It IS chambering another round, but something is knocking the shell out of the bolt before it's hitting the ejector, I THINK. Enclosed is apicture of how it looks when jammed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 OK, after cleaning, checking, sanding and cleaning and cleaning and a LOT A OF CUSSING. I'm 99% sure that I found out what is making my gun not completely eject the shells. I came in from work and started playing, ran the first 10 round mag,(winchester) shot 2, jam, shot 2 jam, shot remaining 6, 2nd mag. (winchester), shot 2, jammed, shot remaining 8 rounds. Changed to the factory 4 round mag and added 1 in chamber for a total of 5 rounds of Golden Bear brass hull, shot 1 jammed, shot 1 jammed, shot 2, jammed, shot last 1. Since the wife was bitching about all the shells on the deck, I started to pick them up and noticed that ALL 5 of the golden bear had a deep dent about half way up the shell. I got to looking and saw a tiny bit of brass on the edge of the top cover. I took the top cover off, loaded up 3 10 round mags and it ran BEAUTIFUL, put the top cover back on and it jammed. Took it off again and ran 3 more full mags, shooting as fast as I could pull the trigger, the first shell was still in the air when the last round went off, on each mag. I then took the top cover of my S12 and put it on the .410 and it ran fine. So what I'm going to do is take the cover to the shop in the morning and mill it back about 1 1/4". With the top cover on, when it would eject a shell, they where ejecting in about the 1-2:00 position, without it, or with the S12 top cover, they are ejecting at about the 4-5:00 position. On the winchester shells, I have never noticed a dent 1/2 way up due to them being plastic, so Thank God for the Golden Bear and brass hulls. I'm heading back out side to run the remaining 60 rounds of Golden bear and try some more winchester. :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThirtyAughtSix 101 Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Wow, has this happened to anybody else before? It's kind of whacky that the ejection port wasn't big enough and I'm just wondering if this is a common problem with FTE's and this is just the first person to figure it out. Well, next time somebody has ejections issues we can tell them try shooting with the dustcover off to get to the bottom of this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted February 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2010 I don't believe that it wasn't big enough, because the jams where so random, but I did mill it out today while at work, came home and it ran 75 rounds without 1 single hickup. It even ran the 15 round surefire mags without any problems, and that was a FIRST. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lenf 5 Posted February 25, 2010 Report Share Posted February 25, 2010 I've been running steel hulls for years without jamming and have seen the dent you mentioned from the beginning. Recently with some 2 3/4" Barnaul and Silver Bear it has been jamming. Your photo of the jammed shell is exactly what I am seeing and they're difficult to clear too. Strangely I've also had a few Winchester 3" jam recently in the same way. I'll try running without the cover. Where exactly are you milling the cover? Can you post a photo? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted February 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2010 The gun is at home right now, I'll take a picture and post this afternoon. I basically milled it to look like the one on my S12. It slings the shells out big time now, and I'm just wondering if the ejector has some wear on it that could have possibly changed the ejection pattern and made the shells start slapping the cover, but who knows, all I do know is that it's working and I'm happy now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted February 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 Here's a picture of the cover installed on the gun, hope it helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lenf 5 Posted February 27, 2010 Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 Here's a picture of the cover installed on the gun, hope it helps. Got it. I'm going to try a few mags without the cover and then with it, gradually cutting as you have show. Thanks. I'll let you know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted February 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 I've got a before milled picture if it'll help to show where the shells where hitting, I just cut the thing out like the S12 to eliminate ANY chance of them hitting. Just got in 200 more rounds of the Golden Bear today and ran 2, 15 round surefires off the deck this afternoon just to make sure and it ran like a sewing machine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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