Saiga 12 in Combat

[ronlv 0]

I have been lurking here for along time and reading everything.

 

I see there is lots of different people doing different mods, mostly for target practice or comps.

 

But if you had to use your S-12 in combat and your life depended on it, what mods would you have?

 

Later, Ron

[Nailbomb 10,221]

The only thing i regret is not having a shorter barrel...

 

Not that i would go crazy, 16" would be fine(with muzzle device)

[PVT Pablo 25]

I have been lurking here for along time and reading everything.

 

I see there is lots of different people doing different mods, mostly for target practice or comps.

 

But if you had to use your S-12 in combat and your life depended on it, what mods would you have?

 

Later, Ron

 

I think your best bet would be pistol grip/fgc conversion, vertical grip, and a drum. After that everything else is just details. I don't really believe in lights, lasers, or optics, its a shotgun after all.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I've heard there are a few floating around Iraq with special forces types. I wouldn't want to leave home without one if I had a choice...

 

WS

[shaneman153a 39]

I'd run a pistol grip conversion and russian 8rd mags. Everything else is just pretty.

[DogMan 2,343]

I'd run a pistol grip conversion and russian 8rd mags. Everything else is just pretty.

 

Yeah, if we're talking "life depends on it" then try to get your hands on at least one Russian 8 rounder however you can. If your mag doesn't work, nothing else matters.

[thehopping1 105]

I think it would be a great gun in close quarters in an urban type of environment, if it was considerably shorter. I would much rather use my X39 for distance and keep the S12 for up close and personal. Don't get me wrong, I love my S12, but it would be second to my X39 for a combat situation.

 

I say 8" barrel, converted with a few MD20's full of 00Buck. Also might as well have the Gunfixer plug and a KA tappet to help it run smooth.

[reb1861 14]

Id have a auto bolt hold open instaled so I can get a full mag in quicker.cut the barrel down to the hand guard and a folding stock.8 round mags and a light.

[jimdigriz 580]

Yeah, if we're talking "life depends on it" then try to get your hands on at least one Russian 8 rounder however you can. If your mag doesn't work, nothing else matters.

 

Are the American mags less reliable? For me, the whole reason to have an AK-type weapon is the reliability. That's why I won't use Promag or Tapco mags. Are the AGP and MD Arms mags for the S-12 not as good as the Russian mags?

[Juggernaut 11,054]

This one!

[DogMan 2,343]

Yeah, if we're talking "life depends on it" then try to get your hands on at least one Russian 8 rounder however you can. If your mag doesn't work, nothing else matters.

 

Are the American mags less reliable? For me, the whole reason to have an AK-type weapon is the reliability. That's why I won't use Promag or Tapco mags. Are the AGP and MD Arms mags for the S-12 not as good as the Russian mags?

I don't think there is any question the Russian mags are the best. The only thing up for debate is how big that margin is and whether it's worth the substantial extra cost. Also maybe someone could argue that the extra capacity in the 10-12 rounders somehow make up for slightly less reliability but I don't think like that. I would put the MD arms drum above the AGP and Surefire mags but I will admit that I haven't used my AGPs and Surefires much since getting the Russians and the drums. A lot of this is subjective but this much I know for sure....If the Russian mags were widely available and at the same cost as the others there is no question which mag 99% of S12 owners would be running in their "go to" guns.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Yeah, if we're talking "life depends on it" then try to get your hands on at least one Russian 8 rounder however you can. If your mag doesn't work, nothing else matters.

 

Are the American mags less reliable? For me, the whole reason to have an AK-type weapon is the reliability. That's why I won't use Promag or Tapco mags. Are the AGP and MD Arms mags for the S-12 not as good as the Russian mags?

I don't think there is any question the Russian mags are the best. The only thing up for debate is how big that margin is and whether it's worth the substantial extra cost. Also maybe someone could argue that the extra capacity in the 10-12 rounders somehow make up for slightly less reliability but I don't think like that. I would put the MD arms drum above the AGP and Surefire mags but I will admit that I haven't used my AGPs and Surefires much since getting the Russians and the drums. A lot of this is subjective but this much I know for sure....If the Russian mags were widely available and at the same cost as the others there is no question which mag 99% of S12 owners would be running in their "go to" guns.

and Izzy mags don't shatter in -14 deg weather.....

[jimdigriz 580]

I don't think there is any question the Russian mags are the best. The only thing up for debate is how big that margin is and whether it's worth the substantial extra cost. Also maybe someone could argue that the extra capacity in the 10-12 rounders somehow make up for slightly less reliability but I don't think like that. I would put the MD arms drum above the AGP and Surefire mags but I will admit that I haven't used my AGPs and Surefires much since getting the Russians and the drums. A lot of this is subjective but this much I know for sure....If the Russian mags were widely available and at the same cost as the others there is no question which mag 99% of S12 owners would be running in their "go to" guns.

 

Thanks.

 

What would you estimate the failure rate for the MD Arms drum? And what kind of malfs are typical in the S-12?

 

I've been considering adding an S-12 for home defense purposes. Right now I'm using 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 rifles in that role. They have the advantage of being nearly 100% reliable. If I use an S-12 as the go-to gun, by how much am I cutting my reliability? If too much, then I will probably just stick with my rifles for that role.

 

Jim

Edited January 29, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[mgconnor13 206]

any problems I've had have been because I had the gas valve on the wrong position. That said a nice basic conversion with a shorter barrel and a bright light would be my combat shotgun.

[Coal_forge 15]

As long as I have good ammo like slugs and buck shot I leave it as is with a pistol grip. I rifled barrel would be nice since I primarily fire slugs.

[thehopping1 105]

I don't think there is any question the Russian mags are the best. The only thing up for debate is how big that margin is and whether it's worth the substantial extra cost. Also maybe someone could argue that the extra capacity in the 10-12 rounders somehow make up for slightly less reliability but I don't think like that. I would put the MD arms drum above the AGP and Surefire mags but I will admit that I haven't used my AGPs and Surefires much since getting the Russians and the drums. A lot of this is subjective but this much I know for sure....If the Russian mags were widely available and at the same cost as the others there is no question which mag 99% of S12 owners would be running in their "go to" guns.

 

Thanks.

 

What would you estimate the failure rate for the MD Arms drum? And what kind of malfs are typical in the S-12?

 

I've been considering adding an S-12 for home defense purposes. Right now I'm using 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 rifles in that role. They have the advantage of being nearly 100% reliable. If I use an S-12 as the go-to gun, by how much am I cutting my reliability? If too much, then I will probably just stick with my rifles for that role.

 

Jim

 

IMO, an S12 is very reliable after break in. The gas system seems like it will foul up quicker than a riffle but in a HD gun it should be fine. After about 400 rounds it might get clogged and may not be as reliable. I haven't had a single problem with my MD20 or my AGP mag. I have about 500 rounds through the AGP and about 200 through the MD20.

[sudaevpps43 31]

I don't think there is any question the Russian mags are the best. The only thing up for debate is how big that margin is and whether it's worth the substantial extra cost. Also maybe someone could argue that the extra capacity in the 10-12 rounders somehow make up for slightly less reliability but I don't think like that. I would put the MD arms drum above the AGP and Surefire mags but I will admit that I haven't used my AGPs and Surefires much since getting the Russians and the drums. A lot of this is subjective but this much I know for sure....If the Russian mags were widely available and at the same cost as the others there is no question which mag 99% of S12 owners would be running in their "go to" guns.

 

Thanks.

 

What would you estimate the failure rate for the MD Arms drum? And what kind of malfs are typical in the S-12?

 

I've been considering adding an S-12 for home defense purposes. Right now I'm using 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 rifles in that role. They have the advantage of being nearly 100% reliable. If I use an S-12 as the go-to gun, by how much am I cutting my reliability? If too much, then I will probably just stick with my rifles for that role.

 

Jim

 

The MD Arms drum is no more likely to fail than a Russian magazine. Keep in mind that Dogman wasn’t saying the MD Arms MD-20 drum isn’t as good as the Russian box magazines, he was saying the Russian box magazines are the best box magazines (the MD-20 is a drum magazine not a box magazine). IMHO The MD-20 drum is equal to the Russian box magazines in terms of durability and reliability, though as with any drum magazine there are tradeoffs when compared to a box magazine. Namely that a drum magazine holds more rounds than a box magazine, but it costs more and of course also increases the loaded weight of the shotgun. Of course later on this year when Chaos and MD Arms come out with their box magazines, we’ll then finally have U.S. made box magazines that are as reliable and durable as the Russian mags.

 

Assuming you are using good magazines, the only malfunctions you can ever really get with a Saiga 12 are ammo related or related to having the gas plug at the wrong setting. You can just read the service tips page on the Tromix website to get all the details.

 

So assuming your Saiga 12 is well broken in (i.e. had a few hundred rounds through it), and if you are using a Russian box magazine or an MD-20 drum, and are using ammo that has sufficient power to cycle a Saiga 12 (and of course also have the gas plug on the correct setting), then a Saiga 12 would be as reliable as your 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 Kalashnikov pattern rifles.

 

If you don’t have the money for an MD-20 drum or a Russian 8 rounder, then a Russian 5 rounder would of course be a good alternative, but if you then also want a mag with a more than 5 round capacity, then IMHO the 8 round Surefire or 8 round AGP mags would be the best choice. The Surefire and AGP mags are not mil-spec durable like the Russian box mags and the MD-20 drum are, but they aren’t fragile either, and they should hold up just fine for the typical shooting range and ‘around the house’ use a home defense shotgun would get. Personally I would never use a 10 or 12 round box mag for home defense, because I think they are just too long and unwieldy for use inside a house (JMHO of course).

Edited January 29, 2010 by Frogfoot

[DogMan 2,343]

I don't think there is any question the Russian mags are the best. The only thing up for debate is how big that margin is and whether it's worth the substantial extra cost. Also maybe someone could argue that the extra capacity in the 10-12 rounders somehow make up for slightly less reliability but I don't think like that. I would put the MD arms drum above the AGP and Surefire mags but I will admit that I haven't used my AGPs and Surefires much since getting the Russians and the drums. A lot of this is subjective but this much I know for sure....If the Russian mags were widely available and at the same cost as the others there is no question which mag 99% of S12 owners would be running in their "go to" guns.

 

Thanks.

 

What would you estimate the failure rate for the MD Arms drum? And what kind of malfs are typical in the S-12?

 

I've been considering adding an S-12 for home defense purposes. Right now I'm using 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 rifles in that role. They have the advantage of being nearly 100% reliable. If I use an S-12 as the go-to gun, by how much am I cutting my reliability? If too much, then I will probably just stick with my rifles for that role.

 

Jim

 

The MD Arms drum is no more likely to fail than a Russian magazine. Keep in mind that Dogman wasn't saying the MD Arms MD-20 drum isn't as good as the Russian box magazines, he was saying the Russian box magazines are the best box magazines (the MD-20 is a drum magazine not a box magazine). IMHO The MD-20 drum is equal to the Russian box magazines in terms of durability and reliability, though as with any drum magazine there are tradeoffs when compared to a box magazine. Namely that a drum magazine holds more rounds than a box magazine, but it costs more and of course also increases the loaded weight of the shotgun. Of course later on this year when Chaos and MD Arms come out with their box magazines, we'll then finally have U.S. made box magazines that are as reliable and durable as the Russian mags.

 

Assuming you are using good magazines, the only malfunctions you can ever really get with a Saiga 12 are ammo related or related to having the gas plug at the wrong setting. You can just read the service tips page on the Tromix website to get all the details.

 

So assuming your Saiga 12 is well broken in (i.e. had a few hundred rounds through it), and if you are using a Russian box magazine or an MD-20 drum, and are using ammo that has sufficient power to cycle a Saiga 12 (and of course also have the gas plug on the correct setting), then a Saiga 12 would be as reliable as your 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 Kalashnikov pattern rifles.

 

If you don't have the money for an MD-20 drum or a Russian 8 rounder, then a Russian 5 rounder would of course be a good alternative, but if you then also want a mag with a more than 5 round capacity, then IMHO the 8 round Surefire or 8 round AGP mags would be the best choice. The Surefire and AGP mags are not mil-spec durable like the Russian box mags and the MD-20 drum are, but they aren't fragile either, and they should hold up just fine for the typical shooting range and 'around the house' use a home defense shotgun would get. Personally I would never use a 10 or 12 round box mag for home defense, because I think they are just too long and unwieldy for use inside a house (JMHO of course).

Yeah, in my experience the Russian mags and MD drums have been equally reliable, both 100%. However, between the two, I do use the Russian box mags in my HD weapon simply because of size and weight. It has nothing to do with reliability. If size and weight (you can always download for lighter weight) don't matter to you then the MD drum would be a fine choice for HD.

Edited January 30, 2010 by DogMan

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I'd probably own several Russian 8-rnders if they weren't ~$120+ apiece. I know they're extremely reliable and well-made, but I just can't countenance paying that. I've sold most of my Surefires, (and all of my AGP's), in anticipation of Mike D's double-stack mags, which promise to be much cheaper, and just as reliable as Russian 8's, (not to mention much higher capacity).

 

Anyway, for a combat S-12, I'd want to keep it very simple and rugged; a fairly straightforward pg/tg restoration with a polymer Warsaw stock and either Krebs or dinzag's replacement irons.

Edited January 30, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[jimdigriz 580]

Anyway, for a combat S-12, I'd want to keep it very simple and rugged; a fairly straightforward pg/tg restoration with a polymer Warsaw stock and either Krebs or dinzag's replacement irons.

 

I kind of liked the simple irons I saw on the S-12 at the store, but I'll have to see what you're talking about...

[TX-Zen 287]

Odd man out here but I wouldn't take a shotgun into combat even as cool as an S12.

 

You get alot more mileage out of an AKS-74 or better yet a Krink, both are great service rifles. My 5.45 Krink is accurate out to 300 yards and has the advantage of being a compact weapon for close quarters, folds up ridiculously small and has 30 round mags. I place flexibility for varying real world conditions over raw hitting power, a 5.45 weapon is accurate, allows quick follow up shots and lets you tear it up from CQB to 300 yards +, whereas a shotgun is relatively limited by comparison (particularly in ammo).

 

Can't take anything away from the S12 but for general purpose or SHTF I'm rolling with a fullsize 74 or a Krink hands down.

 

 

 

Z

[Nailbomb 10,221]

A S-12 in combat wouldn't be used for each individual, but more as a specialized weapon to augment a force for certain MOUNT operations.

 

The rifle is and will stay the primary arm, I interprited the question as "would you feel comfortable taking your S-12 into combat instead of, lets say a mossberg 590a1, or benneli M4, or other apropriate shotgun?"

[jimdigriz 580]

You get alot more mileage out of an AKS-74 or better yet a Krink, both are great service rifles. My 5.45 Krink is accurate out to 300 yards and has the advantage of being a compact weapon for close quarters, folds up ridiculously small and has 30 round mags. I place flexibility for varying real world conditions over raw hitting power, a 5.45 weapon is accurate, allows quick follow up shots and lets you tear it up from CQB to 300 yards +, whereas a shotgun is relatively limited by comparison (particularly in ammo).

 

You would prefer a AK 74 over an S-12 for home defense? Putting aside penetration issues, it seems to me that the S-12 would greatly increase hit potential.

[billyjoebob 10]

I posed this exact question to my Department's armorers. Not that police work is "combat" per-se, but our emergency service section guys use Benelli's under certain CQB circumstances and I personally think the S-12 is better for many reasons (but mainly because of the ability to quickly reload).

 

After we hashed it out, their feeling was the biggest improvement that could be made was the addition of a mag well. Once you have the ability to quickly reload and you reduce the potential for a catastrophic front tab break, the S-12 is golden.

 

But personally...I'm just going to wait and buy a few Chaos "rock and lock" steel mags once they're available.

[TX-Zen 287]

A S-12 in combat wouldn't be used for each individual, but more as a specialized weapon to augment a force for certain MOUNT operations.

 

The rifle is and will stay the primary arm, I interprited the question as "would you feel comfortable taking your S-12 into combat instead of, lets say a mossberg 590a1, or benneli M4, or other apropriate shotgun?"

 

 

Now that you mention it in context of the S12 forum, "would you feel comfortable taking your S-12 into combat instead of, lets say a mossberg 590a1, or benneli M4, or other apropriate shotgun?" makes more sense

 

I also defintely agree on the MOUT concept, I'm an ex Army tank commander and we did plenty of dismounted infantry training so we could understand what the grunts were doing for a half hour while we sat in overwatch burning gas. One of the reasons I am so fond of Krinks is because of room clearing drills with a fullsize M16 and having to short stock it over the shoulder just to get some manueverability in CQ - the M16 completely sucked. I would have much rather had an M4 but often we didn't.

 

In certain applications I also agree that an S12 type weapon has uses but my comments were made more as a general stance that often you get no choice on your issue weapon and must use it under a wide range of conditions. Based on that a rifle is definately going to be my first choice for general utility because generally speaking it will do everything a shotgun will and a whole lot more.

 

 

JD:

 

For HD I use an XD40 with a light, partly due to penetration issues compared to the 5.45x39 but mostly because the XD is a small and handy weapon inside of a house. I'm not a big believer in the advantage of a shotgun's shot pattern making the difference between a successful hit or not, at the interior distances inside a home a pistol is in it's element and as long as you can direct reasonably aimed fire your hit probability is relatively high. Again my experience is influenced by my time in the Army, first round hits are based on good shooting fundamentals. I'm not saying that a pistol is more lethal than a shotgun of course, but it's lethal enough to get the job done IMO.

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited January 30, 2010 by TX-Zen

[jimdigriz 580]

For HD I use an XD40 with a light, partly due to penetration issues compared to the 5.45x39 but mostly because the XD is a small and handy weapon inside of a house. I'm not a big believer in the advantage of a shotgun's shot pattern making the difference between a successful hit or not, at the interior distances inside a home a pistol is in it's element and as long as you can direct reasonably aimed fire your hit probability is relatively high. Again my experience is influenced by my time in the Army, first round hits are based on good shooting fundamentals. I'm not saying that a pistol is more lethal than a shotgun of course, but it's lethal enough to get the job done IMO.

 

Thanks for the response. My house is one level, and long enough to make a shot 22-23 yards distant. From the back of my bedroom, you can see through all the way down the hall, through the living room, through the kitchen, to the door to the garage. The most likely distance for shooting in a home invasion is 10-15 yards. Not sure what the spread on a 12 gauge would be at that distance. My pistol skills suck and would not be up to snuff, but even if they were, whatever solution I choose has to be able to defeat opponents wearing soft body armor. A rifle can do that, but a shotgun would require a head shot, most likely. Maybe the spread would be insufficient to have a good likelihood of a head shot, now that I think about it.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

For HD I use an XD40 with a light, partly due to penetration issues compared to the 5.45x39 but mostly because the XD is a small and handy weapon inside of a house. I'm not a big believer in the advantage of a shotgun's shot pattern making the difference between a successful hit or not, at the interior distances inside a home a pistol is in it's element and as long as you can direct reasonably aimed fire your hit probability is relatively high. Again my experience is influenced by my time in the Army, first round hits are based on good shooting fundamentals. I'm not saying that a pistol is more lethal than a shotgun of course, but it's lethal enough to get the job done IMO.

 

Thanks for the response. My house is one level, and long enough to make a shot 22-23 yards distant. From the back of my bedroom, you can see through all the way down the hall, through the living room, through the kitchen, to the door to the garage. The most likely distance for shooting in a home invasion is 10-15 yards. Not sure what the spread on a 12 gauge would be at that distance. My pistol skills suck and would not be up to snuff, but even if they were, whatever solution I choose has to be able to defeat opponents wearing soft body armor. A rifle can do that, but a shotgun would require a head shot, most likely. Maybe the spread would be insufficient to have a good likelihood of a head shot, now that I think about it.

 

Jim, at 10 to 15 yards your S12 will turn a home invader into soup and hamburger. Anything from #6 bird shot to 00 buck will do the trick.

 

Body armor is effective against single projectiles, but 5 rounds of 00 buck or bird shot fired in rapid succession will hit almost everything that body armor doesn't cover. It's going to be a lot more difficult for an intruder to attack you if he/she has disabled limbs and a face full of whatever it is you are dishing out.

 

Check out the following video and watch what happens to the target when the S12 gets cranked up. I am not aware of any singe projectile weapon that can do that kind of damage at that rate of fire.

 

At seven yards, I have taken apart target stands built from two by four with #6 bird shot and a 12 round mag. One can't compare it with a hand gun or even a rifle for close quarters combat, because there is simply no comparison for the sheer destructive payload a 12 gauge can deliver to its target with each pull of the trigger.

 

 

There is a good reason a shotgun is the weapon of choice for home;)

 

WS

[jimdigriz 580]

Check out the following video and watch what happens to the target when the S12 gets cranked up. I am not aware of any singe projectile weapon that can do that kind of damage at that rate of fire.

 

Nice video. Very compelling.

 

It appears that the gun has some pretty stout recoil. That only concerns me from the perspective of controllability in rapid fire. Which of the rifles would you say the S-12 most approximates in recoil? The .308?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Check out the following video and watch what happens to the target when the S12 gets cranked up. I am not aware of any singe projectile weapon that can do that kind of damage at that rate of fire.

 

Nice video. Very compelling.

 

It appears that the gun has some pretty stout recoil. That only concerns me from the perspective of controllability in rapid fire. Which of the rifles would you say the S-12 most approximates in recoil? The .308?

 

Depends on the ammo.. but I would say more like a 7.62 x 39 in that video. One thing about the S12 is that the muzzle does not climb as with a traditional large caliber AK. The target area can be maintained during rapid fire. If your gun will cycle Wally World federal #6, felt recoil is insignificant, and the amount of lead you can put on target in a second or two is considerable.

 

Many people continue to load up the magnum buck and slugs with these guns, and that's fine if that's what you like to shoot. But, IMO for self defense a hot load can be self defeating (specifically with a fast cycling S12) since more time is required between each shot to recover. You can easily empty a 12 round mag into your target area in less than three seconds with lighter loads, with absolutely devastating results.

 

WS

Edited January 30, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[aefimcev 2]

Standard Fail to fire value for russian made AK-based rifles - 0,2%, for AK-based shortguns - 2% (Izmash info, dont remember link now)

 

My choice it is obvious AK 7,62x39 with RPK 40 rounds mags