Saiga 12 in Combat

[MT Predator 2,294]

Are we talking combat as in Iraq and Afghanistan or home defense. Two totally different things.

In Iraq in a MOUT environment, when clearing rooms in buildings, the S-12 may be overkill. Our troops are responsible for each projectile that leaves their weapon and trying to neutralize a threat in a room with non-combatants would be tough to do with a shotty. The S-12 would not be effective at most distances associated with urban combat either. In Afghanistan, the fighting is taking place in a rural environment for the most part so the carbine would win that argument as well. You have to adapt in combat and select the appropriate weapon and action for various situations. You may go from clearing a house with a carbine to calling a Sniper up to take care of long range business on some Dirkas. Having been in both environments over there, I cannot see where I'd want the S-12 unless I was at a Patrol Base and zombies were breeching the wire. Yes, there are shotguns being used but for breechers. That's where the new M-26 carbine mounted shotgun comes into play, or a breeching round out of an M-203 grenade launcher. In real life, you can't go around slinging multiple long guns like COD.

In a home defense scenerio, I want my target to go down for good so I'm choosing a carbine. I practice on golf balls at 25 meters with both pistol and carbine so an intruder's melon isn't much of a target inside my domain. I'd reserve the S-12 for a last ditch effort to stop multiple threats if need be but I know I am quicker with a carbine and with one 30 rounder in the magwell and one 30 rounder in the redi mag, I am carrying more ammo on the weapon to start with. Plus, I don't need all the spackle work afterwards.

[jimdigriz 580]

Standard Fail to fire value for russian made AK-based rifles - 0,2%, for AK-based shortguns - 2% (Izmash info, dont remember link now)

 

My choice it is obvious AK 7,62x39 with RPK 40 rounds mags

 

That info seems suspect. Would any of the S-12 users here agree that they have a 2% (or even 1%) failure rate? (And I doubt my AK rifles have even a .2% failure rate).

[billyjoebob 10]

Standard Fail to fire value for russian made AK-based rifles - 0,2%, for AK-based shortguns - 2% (Izmash info, dont remember link now)

 

My choice it is obvious AK 7,62x39 with RPK 40 rounds mags

 

That info seems suspect. Would any of the S-12 users here agree that they have a 2% (or even 1%) failure rate? (And I doubt my AK rifles have even a .2% failure rate).

 

I agree...the rate seems high. Maybe they are quoting a pre-break in, out of the box rate?

[dannyfantasy2000 68]

Standard Fail to fire value for russian made AK-based rifles - 0,2%, for AK-based shortguns - 2% (Izmash info, dont remember link now)

 

My choice it is obvious AK 7,62x39 with RPK 40 rounds mags

 

That info seems suspect. Would any of the S-12 users here agree that they have a 2% (or even 1%) failure rate? (And I doubt my AK rifles have even a .2% failure rate).

 

I agree...the rate seems high. Maybe they are quoting a pre-break in, out of the box rate?

 

I guess I get about a 2% failure rate. 1 stovepipe out of every 5 mags or so... seems about that. Not too bad, I can live with it.

[jimdigriz 580]

I guess I get about a 2% failure rate. 1 stovepipe out of every 5 mags or so... seems about that. Not too bad, I can live with it.

 

Yikes. I couldn't live with that. Are you sure there's nothing wrong with your gun? With a failure rate like that, I would not want the gun at all.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I thought we were talking about a 2% failure rate on the QC section of the plant-thus the vodka special

[ronlv 0]

i was using the word "combat" just meaning real life, not target or comps.

 

so "combat" in this discussion means "if your life depended on it, for any reason" what would your mods be.

 

later, ron

[cholly_horse 3]

Standard Fail to fire value for russian made AK-based rifles - 0,2%, for AK-based shortguns - 2% (Izmash info, dont remember link now)

 

My choice it is obvious AK 7,62x39 with RPK 40 rounds mags

Do you Saiga 12s FTF about 1 outta every 50 shots?? I wasnt aware of this.

[stiletto raggio 20]

12" short gas with Gunfixr plug, VLTOR collapsible buttstock, Chaos quad rail, Surefire VFG light, Aimpoint micro sight and a good sling. Oh, and MD doublestack magazines, duh.

 

This whole thing about Russian mags is ridiculous. The new MD stick mags were called "flawless" in function by no less that TONY RUMORE, who probably has more experience with Saigas than anyone else in the US and probably more development/modification experience with them than even the Russians who made the base guns.

Edited February 2, 2010 by stiletto raggio

[Tsm002 5]

I wouldn't use my s12 or my s20.

 

The way I look at it shotguns are for breaching. Say what you will, I'd much rather have a VERY short pump 12 gauge for that purpose than ANYTHING semi-auto. ANYTHING.

 

I'd probably take my ar-15. I like it. Mid length noveske upper, light, aimpoint micro, does what I need it to. Run a 30 round pmag in it with a few in some web gear.

 

If I HAD to take my saiga...and I mean HAD to, since I have MUCH more confidence in m193 for versatility than I do 00 buck...I would stick with the factory 8 round mags.

 

No drums.

 

Why not?

 

I played around with a drum on an ak once on a carbine course. NEVER AGAIN. EVER. WAYYYY too clunky. Pain in the ass to work with. Plus the drums don't fit into a dump pouch if you've got one. Ditto for the 40 round RPK mags. I ended up just using the 20 round amd-65 mags for the remainder of that course since they hung up a hell of a lot less and didn't get in the way when going prone; plus they're all I had aside from the drum and the 40 round mags.

 

So give me the factory russian mags. Why? They're made specifically for combat use (8 round). Not for 3 gun, not for competition, not for dicking around. I understand that the MD arms drums are nice and reliable. I own one. It works very well and I am sure that if I needed to use it it would not fail me. But still, too bulky. There is a VERY good reason that drums are not on general issue for ANY serious fighting force ANYWHERE; even LMG's are much better served by a belt fed design with a qc barrel. So stock 8 rounders for me.

 

I'd definitely want it converted. No vertical grip. The ghetto grip, to me, is something to get hung up on a sling. I ran one on my ar for awhile but once again a quick run through a carbine course proved to me why my KAC grip was WAYYY too long. I MIGHT run a VFG if it were a really stubby short one. The magpul AFG shows promise as well.

 

No lasers. No point. I'd totally want some sort of RDS though, preferably an aimpoint so I can just leave the damn thing on all year long and not worry about it. Probably mount the rds on the factory low side mount. A light would be nice but meh, I could live without it on a shotgun. If I wanted one? Probably use the factory single rail forearm with the side sling mount and just stick one on.

 

I'd definitely want a good sling mount. That's the one thing I really see lacking on the saiga is a good way to mount a single point sling. Fuck it. I'd just bolt one on or figure one out.

 

My biggest requirements for a go to gun, after having been through the carbine courses, are:

*Doesn't get caught up on brush or slings

*Allows me to go prone if I need to without compromising magazine (hence no 12-15 round saiga mags)

*Has a very simple,e xtremely reliable red dot sight that can be removed if needed VERY quickly without tools

*Has some sort of single point sling so I can A: get my gun right now and B: drop it quick if I need to transition to sidearm. If I'm going to be doing an asston of walking I want a two point sling. Or the ms2 from magpul.

*Reliable mags. No ifs, ands or buts.

*Light is nice. Must be mounted very stable. Not worried about spare batteries. If that's a problem then the engagement is going on WAY too long or I am in a tom clancy novel.

Don't need a collapsing stock. Would be nice if I'm getting into and out of vehicles. If I am, then yes, I want my CTR or SOPMOD stock done 1 out.

Barrel length? I want 16 inches rifle, 18 shotgun. Not worried about anything longer or shorter unless I'm breaching, in which case, wth am I doing using my primary firearm for that?

 

I know that these observations differ from many made already. I would ask that those who wish to take drums and grips and such in take a course with your shotgun or rifle and see what happens. There are guys that run them; that works for them. It didn't work for me. It may not for you.

 

For all of the money we put into these guns we NEED to run them through a very tough carbine course. That's where you're gonna find out if your shit works or not, if your mags dump out of the pouch you got for them, if the rails you got are gonna cut your hands up because you forgot to get covers and they have sharp edges (like a YHM or w/e), all sorts of stuff.

[aefimcev 2]

Standard Fail to fire value for russian made AK-based rifles - 0,2%, for AK-based shortguns - 2% (Izmash info, dont remember link now)

 

My choice it is obvious AK 7,62x39 with RPK 40 rounds mags

 

That info seems suspect. Would any of the S-12 users here agree that they have a 2% (or even 1%) failure rate? (And I doubt my AK rifles have even a .2% failure rate).

 

Yes, this values seems strange for me too, but it is from official source. Sorry, dont find the link, anyway, text was in russian. 2% for shotguns.. i think it very depend on ammo quality. it may be even 100%. But 2 fail for 1000 shot for rifle.. this is strange. May be at worste conditions (low temp, snow, dirt etc).

 

Russian police try saiga-12 in close quarters combat in Chechnia, it will be total, 100% fail (soldier with saiga-12 was called "suicide man"). Today all specfors used AK 7.62mm rifles, 9mm SMG(kedr etc) and 9mm VSS; Army prefer AK 5.45mm - due better performance at long distance. Drums never was popular in Chechnia - it is too heavy and uncomfortable. rpk 40 mag or 2x30 mags - standard use.

 

Sorry for my english.

Edited February 2, 2010 by aefimcev

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

There are plenty of Saiga 12's that cycle quite reliably. There is absolutely no reason that an S12 should malfunction 2% of the time. If the gun is properly tuned for performance, and you are using halfway decent ammo the error rate should be less than .5%. Even at that, a quick yank on the charging handle will clear an FTE pronto.

 

I agree that 2% is unacceptable. If you are willing to accept that failure rate, your natural weapon of choice is probably an AR.

 

WS

Edited February 2, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[MT Predator 2,294]

i was using the word "combat" just meaning real life, not target or comps.

 

so "combat" in this discussion means "if your life depended on it, for any reason" what would your mods be.

 

later, ron

Roger that, it would help if my dumbass read your initial post correctly. I thought you were asking about using the S-12 in combat. Didn't see the mod part of your post.

While I wouldn't choose an S-12 for a primary combat weapon, I'd go with the most common mods in conjunction with a PPG conversion. It needs enough gas to cycle, good quality mags/drums to feed it, and it needs to eject hulls properly. Other than that, it is an AK so it is easy to take care of.

[MT Predator 2,294]

I agree with Tsm002 for the most part. As for drums, I agree about their bulkiness but it would be the shit to use for surpressive fire while someone else is moving or reloading. Vertical grips work for me, used them on military issued weapons enough I am used to them and they "force" my non-firing side elbow down for stability. I was fortunate to test a sample Magpul Angled Fore Grip awhile back. I ran it on a couple ARs and then my S-12. It was awkward to me, didn't "force" that elbow down like a VFG. I'm Aimpoint all the way for a RDS. Seen way too many failures with EOTechs on mil weapons, they can't handle recoil or heat very well. Definitely need good iron sights that cowitness with the RDS or be able to quick disconnect it. I agree on the lack of a decent sling mount. You have options if you are running a rail up front for attaching a two point sling. I am contemplating a mount in the receiver for a single point attachment as I run single points on everything else I have. Also need a good solid stock, folder, collapsible, whatever flavor you prefer. Needs to be solid though. I've read too much on this forum about broken plastic stocks.

[jimdigriz 580]

If the gun is properly tuned for performance, and you are using halfway decent ammo the error rate should be less than .5%.

 

Even that would be too much for me. On my Saiga rifles, a failure would be something that is shocking. (I've never had one yet). There's bound to be one eventually, but probably the highest rate on any rifle or shotgun I could accept would be something like 1 in a 1000, and even that would make me a little uncomfortable.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

If the gun is properly tuned for performance, and you are using halfway decent ammo the error rate should be less than .5%.

 

Even that would be too much for me. On my Saiga rifles, a failure would be something that is shocking. (I've never had one yet). There's bound to be one eventually, but probably the highest rate on any rifle or shotgun I could accept would be something like 1 in a 1000, and even that would make me a little uncomfortable.

 

Jim, First I think we need to define failure. If we are talking about an AR type jam where the gun has to be field stripped to clear it, I completely agree with you. Even .2% is unacceptable.

 

I build tactical S12's and fire thousands of rounds function testing them, and once the guns are right -- they just don't fail. Due to the sheer volume of ammo I go through, I usually shoot the absolute cheapest stuff I can buy -- Wally World Federal #6 - #8 low base game shot at $4.67 a box of 25. I get an FTE MAYBE once every four or five hundred rounds, and that is usually ammo related and easily cleared with a yank of the charging handle.

 

Higher brass ammo like Rio Royal 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buck is absolutely golden. I just went though a couple of mags to see what sort of spread and damage it would do, and let me tell you... I was damned impressed. At self defense range rapid firing at a 2' x 6' man sized target and stand, the target was thoroughly perforated, as was the surrounding two by four down to a bout knee level, with much of the 00 buck passing completely through the 2 x 4.

 

Others can say what they will about the S12. Nothing else I have ever shot will reliably deliver 108 8.4mm projectiles on the target area in the space of three seconds.They can take an AK or AR with them to go after home invaders if they want. I am, grabbing my S12 and increasing my odds of hitting the target by a factor of six to eight every time I pull the trigger.

 

No need for an SBS, my black 19" S12' shottys will do the job just fine;)

 

WS

 

 

 

As far as an outright jam, that requires even a partial field stripping of the weapon -- I never say never, but so far it just has not happened

[IronRonin 19]

"Our grandson, Captain Tyler Heath, USMC, is now back from the wars with many interesting things to tell us. His job was close air support coordinator with the Third Marines, so he did not exercise infantry command, but his weapon of choice was the combat shotgun, using double-0 buck" - Jeff Cooper

 

I trust in Jeff!

[Gibbles 23]

I have been building my S12 up with 3gun in mind, the more I can carry with out reloading the better, and being able to dump a bunch of shells in a short time is great, I had a stage where a plop down steel target was setup incorrectly and it took 5 or 8 rapid fire birdshot rounds to knock the damn thing over luckly I had the MD20 drum and a 10rd stick mag in my back pocket as a backup...

 

Once I get some money flow going again I want to build up a second S12 with a magwell... but I would settle for a last round bolt hold open.

 

Mine runs 100% all failures I have had were because of hulls of the ammo, fed walmart bulk 7 1/2 shot or lower works the best for me, but I need to beable to knock down steel...

 

I would trust my S12 with my life right now, only issue I have is if I try and load the mag with the bolt closed, about 80% of the time I crush the top round while rocking it in, and I get a FTF from that top round... sometimes I can force the bolt closed and go from there...

[Bayoupiper 738]

My S-12 has never failed me.

But then again, it was built right the first time.

 

I agree that a shotgun is a pretty "mission specific" weapon.

 

To that end, mine is perfect for the close quarters, entry gun that I use it for.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

 

 

I agree that a shotgun is a pretty "mission specific" weapon.

 

 

 

 

As is any shotty, no?

 

Mine works too!!!! Wonder why????