Ronswin 26 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Russia is firmly entrenched with the 5.45 round and will continue to produce it and the AK-74 series rifles for some time. If Russia continues to use the round - which they do, obviously - why are they surplussing huge amounts of ammo? Is it because they've upgraded to a superior version of the round? But even then you'd think they would hold their stocks of 7N6 for inexpensive training purposes. The best reason that comes to mind is simply cash. Back when the AK-74 was developed and fielded by the then Soviet Union, they anticipated large orders from client states and countries to "upgrade" from their old and delapidated AK-47 rifles to the new and improved AK-74 and the 5.45X39 round. So, large amounts of the new 5.45X39 round was produced by state-owned factories for the eventual demand. Soviet-backed countries still using AK-47 rifles felt no need or advantage to "upgrade" especially since their current rifles were neither worn out nor obsolete. Chechnya came along with it's urban warfare and the Russian Army realized there were advantages to both the 5.45X39 and the 7.62X39 in certain theatres of battle thus mixing Ak-47 and AK-74 into frontline units weapons issue. Basically, the Russians would like the 7.62X39 to eventually fade away, but they made the rifles too well and too damn many of them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Russia is firmly entrenched with the 5.45 round and will continue to produce it and the AK-74 series rifles for some time. If Russia continues to use the round - which they do, obviously - why are they surplussing huge amounts of ammo? Is it because they've upgraded to a superior version of the round? But even then you'd think they would hold their stocks of 7N6 for inexpensive training purposes. The best reason that comes to mind is simply cash. Back when the AK-74 was developed and fielded by the then Soviet Union, they anticipated large orders from client states and countries to "upgrade" from their old and delapidated AK-47 rifles to the new and improved AK-74 and the 5.45X39 round. So, large amounts of the new 5.45X39 round was produced by state-owned factories for the eventual demand. Soviet-backed countries still using AK-47 rifles felt no need or advantage to "upgrade" especially since their current rifles were neither worn out nor obsolete. Chechnya came along with it's urban warfare and the Russian Army realized there were advantages to both the 5.45X39 and the 7.62X39 in certain theatres of battle thus mixing Ak-47 and AK-74 into frontline units weapons issue. Basically, the Russians would like the 7.62X39 to eventually fade away, but they made the rifles too well and too damn many of them. That's part of it, one of the other main reason's is the old Warsaw Pact countries went to NATO and are using 5.56x45 AK's! Leaving the Russians with over supply of 5.45x39 (much of it from the 70's and 80's and they might want to refresh the inventory and pull some hard cash as well! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
russiangunrunner 10 Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 grab a 5.45. mags are cheaper and ammo is cheaper and everything just comes together like it should. having said that i love my .223 and for the exact reason that i grab a couple boxes on my way to the shooting range. you can't do that with 5.45.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 grab a 5.45. mags are cheaper and ammo is cheaper and everything just comes together like it should. having said that i love my .223 and for the exact reason that i grab a couple boxes on my way to the shooting range. you can't do that with 5.45.... Not sure I'd want to, considering the price of 223 boxes. But I understand the sentiment, and that's why I have both. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 Going 5.45 after all said and done then I got an AK47 and a AK74 Got an extra factory 5.45 mag also ordered up from a board member.. for those pesky trips to NJ. Total to me will be $380 with Xfer Fee and PICS, and Shipping so all is good. Found ammo for $150 a tin of 1080 also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeepranch 16 Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 If you already have 223 ammo and ar15 clips, go 223, and put one of the magwell converters in. if not, go 5.45 as for the price of a few k's of 223 ammo you can have a couple of Saiga 545, plenty of 30 round military mags, and several Ks worth of 545 ammo. Having said that, brass cased new 223 ammo has taken a plunge and PMC 55 grain ammo is down to the 275 per K delivered range instead of 500. makes it harder to decide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 After talking to a dealer on here (sponsor) it seems 120-130 mm is the new standard Spec sheet for 5.45x39.. Tried to get less than 100mm but after looking in 36 rifles that don't seem to be happening. Now checking 223 spec sheets for me... I want 5.45 but 120-130 mm is almost as bad as my x39 at 143mm and that can't be good. Unless they just guess at the numbers now over there in Russia... And now 7.62x39 guys on here are saying under 100mm for there sheets.. wtf?? Maybe I'm being over anal abit... Anyone got there sheets handy and want to post mm numbers.. please do.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Personally, I still prefer the .223/5.56. I can buy wold or bear at $4.50 a box. I can buy 200 value packs at walmart for $7.75 (equal to box of 20). It's brass and reloadable. I can buy pmc bronze for $6.75 a box of 20. .223/5.56 will always be more available to me. Could I buy a 5.45 and load up and stock up ammo? Sure. But I just don't see it as that much cheaper. I keep about 100 rounds of Soft Point .223 for home defense. And I buy mainly silver and brown bear at $4.50 a box. I guess over time; after thousands of rounds, the cost difference would be significant. But from MOST retailers, including online, the price of the 5.45 and .223 and 7.62x39 are almost identical. Yes, you can find the occasional corrosive bulk cheaper, but even then, it's only about $1-$1.50 a box cheaper. Even at $2 a box cheaper, that would be a savings of $100 for a case of 1000 rounds. That's just not worth it to me when the availability and selection of .223 is so much more. I might not need or want to shoot a lot of soft point or hollow point bullets; but with .223 I have that option. I don't have that option with 5.45. Wolf makes some hollow point in 5.45, but the .223/5.56 selection is just better for my liking. Having said all that; there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a rifle in 5.45 caliber. Especially if it's just for plinking. Every pistol and rifle and shotgun I have, has a specific purpose. When I had guns, just to have guns, I probably had 50+ sitting in safes. I've since lowered that number. Some, I sold. Some, I gave away for free to family and friends. (So they might get interested in shooting or for self defense). So, everything I have left, has a specific purpose. And while there is obviously some overlap between guns and their purpose, it is very little. And being I have a saiga .223, there's really not purpose for me to have a 5.45. There's nothing that the one caliber can do that the other can't. I've even gotten rid of my 7.62x39, because I have not purpose for it. But that's what happens when you get older. You tend to become more practical instead of having weapons just to have. Don't get me wrong, I have some weapons that are totally useless, but I have. Usually for historical purposes; e.g. M1-garand, M1-carbine, 1856 navy revolver, etc... But the 5.45 is definitely a good round if a person just wants to plink and doesn't have a .223 or 7.62x39 yet. But if I had to make a choice of only one of the three, the edge would go to the .223 for the availability and selection. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 And now 7.62x39 guys on here are saying under 100mm for there sheets.. wtf?? My new 7.62 from feb 09 is 84mm. maybe they tested yours on rookie day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 (edited) After talking to a dealer on here (sponsor) it seems 120-130 mm is the new standard Spec sheet for 5.45x39.. Tried to get less than 100mm but after looking in 36 rifles that don't seem to be happening. Now checking 223 spec sheets for me... I want 5.45 but 120-130 mm is almost as bad as my x39 at 143mm and that can't be good. Unless they just guess at the numbers now over there in Russia... And now 7.62x39 guys on here are saying under 100mm for there sheets.. wtf?? Maybe I'm being over anal abit... Anyone got there sheets handy and want to post mm numbers.. please do.. Those numbers mean nothing. There's a recent thread about that. My 5.45 has 136 mm on the sheet, but I still can get as low as 2.5 inches at 100 yards (with a red dot). Edited February 15, 2010 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Christcorp, $4.50 per box is the exception. To get that pricing there are only a few vendors and you have to buy 50 boxes (1000 rds), The mil serp. 5.45x39 is $128 (at one of the same vendors) for 1080 rounds = 54 boxs (of 20 rds) = $2.37 What the heck are you talking about the same price? .223 = $.225 each round 5.45x39 = $ .118 each round I think your wrong! Sorry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Christcorp, $4.50 per box is the exception. To get that pricing there are only a few vendors and you have to buy 50 boxes (1000 rds), You can buy individual boxes of Tula Cartridge Works .223 for $4.75. Not bad stuff for plinking actually. But I'll be shooting mostly 5.45. I can shoot without the gears turning in the back of my head about how much money I'm spending. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 Thanks JimD.. I was quoted 120-130mm today. I put up a separate post on this specific matter anyway. DI never had a RD yet and mine wil be in Friday.. I just want to see the damn target without it being covered. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 PMC bronze for $6.75 is a good buy. I got Canadian Centurion M193 for $180/500 and I though that was good. Wouldn't mind getting some cheap ARussian ammo for blasting. Is that Tula non-corrosive? I have seen it advertised in white boxes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 As for cheap mags, $20 each for excellent used 5.56x45 35 round Galil steel is not bad. They seem to be indestructible! I will have 11 when I get the three additional I get! I like them too, beause they are about the same length as the AK74 30 rounder. 6 in the chest rig and 1 in the weapon is 35 more rounds than the same load with 30 round 5.45x39 mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 PMC bronze for $6.75 is a good buy. I got Canadian Centurion M193 for $180/500 and I though that was good. Wouldn't mind getting some cheap ARussian ammo for blasting. Is that Tula non-corrosive? Yes. I got good accuracy out of it too, although I did get one round out of 60 with a misshapen primer that made a tiny pow and fizzle and failed to fire. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 I know of quite a few places online (That's ALMOST always where I buy military ammo) that has wolf, silver/brown bear, non-corrosive, .223 for $4.50-$5.00 a box. And you DON'T have to buy cases of it. Without even doing a lot of searching, Wideners, Cheaperthandirt, ammunitiontogo, centerfiresystems, and I could DEFINITELY CONTINUE: ALL have .223 for $5 or LESS per box, and you can buy it by the box. Personally, because of S/H, that would be pretty stupid, but you could do it. Now; if you want to play the "Can't buy it locally for those prices" game. Then you win. But accept for 9mm FMJ at WALMART, I have NEVER seen any ammo locally at any store that was cheaper than getting it online. I buy 9mm from walmart. I even buy some .223 (Bought some today; $7.69+/- box of 20 (Comes in a 200 round value pack). (I'm saving the brass up as trading material). I also buy my Personal Defense rounds from my local gun shop. And I buy 00buck and 4buck from local shops. But ALL my plinking 45acp, ($11 a box); .223 ($4.49 a box); 9mm makarov ($9 a box), 32acp ($13 a box), and plenty of other; I always buy online. I know some people who won't order online. Sorry, I have no answer for that. But for the rest of us who live in the 21st century and don't mind ordering online, the prices and availability is definitely out there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 After talking to a dealer on here (sponsor) it seems 120-130 mm is the new standard Spec sheet for 5.45x39.. Tried to get less than 100mm but after looking in 36 rifles that don't seem to be happening. Now checking 223 spec sheets for me... I want 5.45 but 120-130 mm is almost as bad as my x39 at 143mm and that can't be good. Unless they just guess at the numbers now over there in Russia... And now 7.62x39 guys on here are saying under 100mm for there sheets.. wtf?? Maybe I'm being over anal abit... Anyone got there sheets handy and want to post mm numbers.. please do.. I can get 2.5-3 MOA easy with my Arsenal SLR-105 5.45 with a 1-3.5X scope, bench-rested using Wolf black box ammo. I'm not sure where those numbers you have are from , but the average Russian 5.45 AK type rifle should do less than 4-5 MOA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 Well, thanks to Jeremy/Adam/Lisa vast help on this I ended up with a Saiga 5.45x39 by ordering today from Peach State down in GA for $354 OTD with shipping and the -$10 Saiga Forum discount. They have them in STOCK I am now ordering my FCG conversion parts again from Greg over at CSS and a pair of those Bulgy mags hese got for $14 Each.. I'm betting the parts will be in 2 days before I get the rifle... Thank to you guys also and hoepfully this will hang around for abit of other NEWBIES to 223/556 and can be read when needed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 (edited) I'm glad I found this thread. I assumed there'd be a thread like this, but it took me a bit of searching to find it. LOL I'm in a similar situation where I'm debating which one to get. I have a Valmet, an SKS and a Draco pistol, all in 7.62x39, but nothing in 5.45 yet. Got an old Colt SP1 too. I'm leaning towards 223 with an AR magwell, to make use of ALL my AR mags I have for the SP1. Yeah, ammo costs more....but I think I'll be able to find it easier down the road. Especially if they ever ban ammo importation. Eventually, I'd like to have both calibers. Corbin Edited February 26, 2010 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 My 5.45 came in Friday (19th) from Peach and the parts from CSS came in Sat (20th). The rifle factory spec sheet says 106mm .. thanks to Andy/Jeremy at Peach for the help. I know this number doesn't mean squat alledgely, but I feel better knowing that from the start it SHOULD be better. I converted it on Saturday/Sunday (separate post has details). Be going out next Sat (6th) with the Bushnell Trophy Red Dot I got for $70 on the UTG 978 QD mount.. I ordered 2 more Bulgy 74 mags from Copes for $10/each.. And I have 450 rounds here/on-way.. Will be posting back when done.. Now if I get some more $$ in the next 2 months I may go 223 aa well... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bloyer4@hotmail.com 0 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Sorry to bump up an old topic, but I'm in the process of deciding between a Saiga in .223, 5.45, or .308. I already have a Yugo in 7.62x39 and I'm looking for something to play with that might have a bit longer range. I plan on buying the base model and converting it in my spare time. I got a lot of great information from this topic from posters that know a hell-of-a-lot more than I do. My concern is if the reliability of the Saiga .223 and the Saiga .308 matches that of the 5.45 and 7.62x39. I know the Saiga/AK platform were developed in conjunction with the 7.62x39 and later the 5.45, and their reliability is legendary. Is this reliability matched in the NATO rounds? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) Sorry to bump up an old topic, but I'm in the process of deciding between a Saiga in .223, 5.45, or .308. I already have a Yugo in 7.62x39 and I'm looking for something to play with that might have a bit longer range. I plan on buying the base model and converting it in my spare time. I got a lot of great information from this topic from posters that know a hell-of-a-lot more than I do. My concern is if the reliability of the Saiga .223 and the Saiga .308 matches that of the 5.45 and 7.62x39. I know the Saiga/AK platform were developed in conjunction with the 7.62x39 and later the 5.45, and their reliability is legendary. Is this reliability matched in the NATO rounds? Thanks in advance. It would take a bit of work, but I suggest clicking back through pages of each caliber's sub-forum and noting the number of threads about feeding, firing, and extraction malfunctions. This is how I eventually decided that the Saiga 12 was not for me. Although great reliability can eventually be obtained with some work and expense, it is not inherently reliable like the 7.62x39 and 5.45 designs. For what it's worth, I've very seldomly seen threads about .223 Saiga malfunctions; probably no more often than ones on 7.62x39. And, besides once with a cartridge with a misshapen primer, my own .223 Saiga hasn't experienced any. (That said, I trust my 5.45 more). I haven't paid close attention to .308 threads, but I've seen little there either. Edited March 7, 2010 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) Just an update. I grabbed a 5.45x39 and was able to get 1 1/2" at 100 yards today on the first 4 shots with a 4x scope. The rest opened it to 2 1/2" - 2 3/4" but I am now a VERY happy camper. I did a full range report also. See below.. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51580&view=getnewpost Edited March 7, 2010 by Scope&Bang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.