FTE Problems, need a direction.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Okay some background on the gun and what I have done so far.

Converted

19" 3-hole .093" on all holes, all holes are visible when gas plug is removed

MD Arms Gun Fixers Gas Plug

Rails polished

Bolt ground and polished to clear top of hammer

Bolt carrier has bottom ground and polished

Top of hammer is ground and polished.

The gun hand cycles like a dream, very smooth!

 

Okay, when shooting Federal bulk pack, Winchester AA bulk, slugs, or buckshot I get FTEs on average 1-2 per magazine. That said when the gun does eject the shells on Federal or Winchester AA bulk pack fly between 4-6 feet on setting 3. Slugs and buckshot on the +1 setting are flying about 8-10 feet. I really do not think this is an under gassed gun, it just throws the cases way to far. IMO something is disrupting the ejection cycle and causing the spent case not to clear the receiver before the bolt comes back to load another round. BTW all FTEs are stovepipes. Does anyone have a suggestion for fixing FTEs that is not gas related or please try and convince me that this gun could still be under-gassed.

Thanks

[Spartacus 1,619]

I agree that the gun is not under gassed.

I'm trying to find out more info on a fix that may work for you, Mike D. is the man with the answer.

 

Keep a watch on this thread I just posted:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51368

[ErikTaylor 41]

I agree that the gun is not under gassed.

I'm trying to find out more info on a fix that may work for you, Mike D. is the man with the answer.

 

Keep a watch on this thread I just posted:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51368

 

Spartacus,

Are you talking about when you ride the carrier it stops short of battery unless you release the CH? If so mine does that too. I thought about that but never figured that would make a HUGE difference!

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Okay some background on the gun and what I have done so far.

Converted

19" 3-hole .093" on all holes, all holes are visible when gas plug is removed

MD Arms Gun Fixers Gas Plug

Rails polished

Bolt ground and polished to clear top of hammer

Bolt carrier has bottom ground and polished

Top of hammer is ground and polished.

The gun hand cycles like a dream, very smooth!

 

Okay, when shooting Federal bulk pack, Winchester AA bulk, slugs, or buckshot I get FTEs on average 1-2 per magazine. That said when the gun does eject the shells on Federal or Winchester AA bulk pack fly between 4-6 feet on setting 3. Slugs and buckshot on the +1 setting are flying about 8-10 feet. I really do not think this is an under gassed gun, it just throws the cases way to far. IMO something is disrupting the ejection cycle and causing the spent case not to clear the receiver before the bolt comes back to load another round. BTW all FTEs are stovepipes. Does anyone have a suggestion for fixing FTEs that is not gas related or please try and convince me that this gun could still be under-gassed.

Thanks

 

There are a number of issues that can affect ejection, gas is only one factor. It does sound a if your problem is mechanical, and on the receiver side but that is not 100%.

 

Have you tried the factory plug in the gun since doing your mods? If you get exactly the same results, it could help rule out gas. One of the issues with the gas systems on S12's is that the vents are seldom drilled in exactly the same place. Where a gas plug (aftermarket or otherwise) may work on one gun, the way the vents are placed on another gun could cause the plug to block or partially block the vents.

 

Also check the brass on the FTE shells against the brass (esp. metal lip) on the non FTE shells for any deformations, differences, or irregularities. This may help lead you to the source of receiver side mechanical issues.

 

Good luck!

[termite 463]

The only way that I figured out what was causing my .410 to jam was to shoot some golden bear brass cased ammo, and by dumb luck, noticed the very badly dented cases. Maybe try a few rounds and see if they show you anything. But also, my S12 was messing up with the winchester low brass and md20 drum, I found one of the gas holes plugged with plastic, cleaned it out and no more problems.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Okay some background on the gun and what I have done so far.

Converted

19" 3-hole .093" on all holes, all holes are visible when gas plug is removed

MD Arms Gun Fixers Gas Plug

Rails polished

Bolt ground and polished to clear top of hammer

Bolt carrier has bottom ground and polished

Top of hammer is ground and polished.

The gun hand cycles like a dream, very smooth!

 

Okay, when shooting Federal bulk pack, Winchester AA bulk, slugs, or buckshot I get FTEs on average 1-2 per magazine. That said when the gun does eject the shells on Federal or Winchester AA bulk pack fly between 4-6 feet on setting 3. Slugs and buckshot on the +1 setting are flying about 8-10 feet. I really do not think this is an under gassed gun, it just throws the cases way to far. IMO something is disrupting the ejection cycle and causing the spent case not to clear the receiver before the bolt comes back to load another round. BTW all FTEs are stovepipes. Does anyone have a suggestion for fixing FTEs that is not gas related or please try and convince me that this gun could still be under-gassed.

Thanks

 

There are a number of issues that can affect ejection, gas is only one factor. It does sound a if your problem is mechanical, and on the receiver side but that is not 100%.

 

Have you tried the factory plug in the gun since doing your mods? If you get exactly the same results, it could help rule out gas. One of the issues with the gas systems on S12's is that the vents are seldom drilled in exactly the same place. Where a gas plug (aftermarket or otherwise) may work on one gun, the way the vents are placed on another gun could cause the plug to block or partially block the vents.

 

Also check the brass on the FTE shells against the brass (esp. metal lip) on the non FTE shells for any deformations, differences, or irregularities. This may help lead you to the source of receiver side mechanical issues.

 

Good luck!

 

Thought of that a while back and tried the stock gas plug, tried backing out the MD Arms two full turns to see if a greater volume of air might work. What gets me is nothing ever helps, enlarging the gas ports to stock width made the shells that did eject really fly. The ones that get out clean really fly, then you get a few that make it out but you can tell their flight path was altered, then you have the FTEs which usually get the brass cases wedged inside the gun because the bolt slams into them with full force.

I haven't really examined the cases for damage and to be honest I am not sure what I should be looking for. I will check the brass on my next range trip.

Thanks for the help.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

The only way that I figured out what was causing my .410 to jam was to shoot some golden bear brass cased ammo, and by dumb luck, noticed the very badly dented cases. Maybe try a few rounds and see if they show you anything. But also, my S12 was messing up with the winchester low brass and md20 drum, I found one of the gas holes plugged with plastic, cleaned it out and no more problems.

 

 

Thanks! Do they make a full brass cased in 12 gauge?

[Wade Pruetz 103]

My guess on this whole situation is what ever is causing the FTEs is not consistent so it may be minor, but right now it looks like Mt. Everest!

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

The only way that I figured out what was causing my .410 to jam was to shoot some golden bear brass cased ammo, and by dumb luck, noticed the very badly dented cases. Maybe try a few rounds and see if they show you anything. But also, my S12 was messing up with the winchester low brass and md20 drum, I found one of the gas holes plugged with plastic, cleaned it out and no more problems.

 

 

Thanks! Do they make a full brass cased in 12 gauge?

 

As a matter of face there is an all metal 12 gauge shell - maybe Russian? Someone posted a shot of one on a thread about leaving the mag in with the bolt closed. Google is your friend!

 

Good luck Niner!

[oldandslow 3]

Let's see...

 

Plenty of gas, check.

No apparent mechanical binds, check. (This is hard to believe, cause it's Russian and they have some funny ideas about machining tolerances.)

 

That leaves...

 

The extractor.

 

I could report that I had similar problems with my various Saiga 12s, but the problems pretty much went away at the 300 round mark.

 

I believe that all of the "gas port enlargement - addition" just over gasses the gun to compensate for the bad machining. The gun will overcome the bad machining with use. Then you have a overgassed gun that gets beat to death at a earlier age. This doesn't really make much of a difference to most Saiga owners because they don't really shoot very often.

 

My oldest Saiga 12, a 2001 EAA import has "ONE", gas port. I actually cut the barrel down to 18 1/2 inches. It works fine. It does have more than 5000 rounds through it. It sucked initially.

[Spartacus 1,619]

I agree that the gun is not under gassed.

I'm trying to find out more info on a fix that may work for you, Mike D. is the man with the answer.

 

Keep a watch on this thread I just posted:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51368

 

Spartacus,

Are you talking about when you ride the carrier it stops short of battery unless you release the CH? If so mine does that too. I thought about that but never figured that would make a HUGE difference!

 

 

Mine does that too ET, and I bet most of them do. As the bolt closes there is some resistance from both the extractor and also the bolt head turning and locking. I'm not sure if the fix Mike D. spoke of will affect that or not.

 

I was working on my gun a bit more tonight.... pulled the recoil spring and manually moved the carrier back and forth to look for rough spots. Darned if I didn't find that the bolt/carrier was still hanging up a bit on that tall G2 hammer. Took a little more off the top and it slides over the hammer much better now. I used to be able to hang the carrier on the hammer if I rode the charging handle.... now I can't hang it no matter how slow I let it go.

 

The action feels much smoother with every bit of work I've done on it, just have to wait til I get to the range to see if the work pays off.

Maybe Friday ...........

[ErikTaylor 41]

I'm going to have to work on that before this weekend! Makes a ton of sense to me!

[termite 463]

The shells are Silver Bear, they are listed as 2 3/4" but will not fit the drum, only the regular mags. I think that I got the boxes I have at Sportsmans Guide. They are not brass, I guess zinc plated steel. If some/most are ejecting and the rest are getting stuck inside, something is interfering with the ejection. Like I said, the ONLY way I found my problem was with the metal shells, and I had a bunch of people say it was the extractor spring. Try taking off the top cover, run it and see what happens, at least you'll get a birds eye view of the action cycling and a few sparks from the chamber.

[havok 21]

Okay some background on the gun and what I have done so far.

Converted

19" 3-hole .093" on all holes, all holes are visible when gas plug is removed

MD Arms Gun Fixers Gas Plug

Rails polished

Bolt ground and polished to clear top of hammer

Bolt carrier has bottom ground and polished

Top of hammer is ground and polished.

The gun hand cycles like a dream, very smooth!

 

Okay, when shooting Federal bulk pack, Winchester AA bulk, slugs, or buckshot I get FTEs on average 1-2 per magazine. That said when the gun does eject the shells on Federal or Winchester AA bulk pack fly between 4-6 feet on setting 3. Slugs and buckshot on the +1 setting are flying about 8-10 feet. I really do not think this is an under gassed gun, it just throws the cases way to far. IMO something is disrupting the ejection cycle and causing the spent case not to clear the receiver before the bolt comes back to load another round. BTW all FTEs are stovepipes. Does anyone have a suggestion for fixing FTEs that is not gas related or please try and convince me that this gun could still be under-gassed.

Thanks

 

 

Did you try -1 setting for the high brass?

 

I guess I will give my range report here.I just opened mine up a few days ago and tested it out today.

My gun was undergased,it ran perfect on -1 with high brass. FTE with fed's on setting 3 from time to time.

Opened the ports up and it ran the same with high brass on -1,perfect. High brass will stovepipe or FTE on +1 before and now. Remember gunfixer plug is for overgased gun's. You should only be on +1 if you got alot of gas flowing in your gun.

As for low brass in my gun, fed's ran 100%. I am real happy with the result's of my gun .I will now try the winchester's and remington's.

I hope you get your gun runnig 100%.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Okay some background on the gun and what I have done so far.

Converted

19" 3-hole .093" on all holes, all holes are visible when gas plug is removed

MD Arms Gun Fixers Gas Plug

Rails polished

Bolt ground and polished to clear top of hammer

Bolt carrier has bottom ground and polished

Top of hammer is ground and polished.

The gun hand cycles like a dream, very smooth!

 

Okay, when shooting Federal bulk pack, Winchester AA bulk, slugs, or buckshot I get FTEs on average 1-2 per magazine. That said when the gun does eject the shells on Federal or Winchester AA bulk pack fly between 4-6 feet on setting 3. Slugs and buckshot on the +1 setting are flying about 8-10 feet. I really do not think this is an under gassed gun, it just throws the cases way to far. IMO something is disrupting the ejection cycle and causing the spent case not to clear the receiver before the bolt comes back to load another round. BTW all FTEs are stovepipes. Does anyone have a suggestion for fixing FTEs that is not gas related or please try and convince me that this gun could still be under-gassed.

Thanks

 

 

Did you try -1 setting for the high brass?

 

I guess I will give my range report here.I just opened mine up a few days ago and tested it out today.

My gun was undergased,it ran perfect on -1 with high brass. FTE with fed's on setting 3 from time to time.

Opened the ports up and it ran the same with high brass on -1,perfect. High brass will stovepipe or FTE on +1 before and now. Remember gunfixer plug is for overgased gun's. You should only be on +1 if you got alot of gas flowing in your gun.

As for low brass in my gun, fed's ran 100%. I am real happy with the result's of my gun .I will now try the winchester's and remington's.

I hope you get your gun runnig 100%.

 

 

Gonna get some more high brass and head to the range tomorrow. I have made a few more changes but I doubt it will make much difference.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Let's see...

 

Plenty of gas, check.

No apparent mechanical binds, check. (This is hard to believe, cause it's Russian and they have some funny ideas about machining tolerances.)

 

That leaves...

 

The extractor.

 

I could report that I had similar problems with my various Saiga 12s, but the problems pretty much went away at the 300 round mark.

 

I believe that all of the "gas port enlargement - addition" just over gasses the gun to compensate for the bad machining. The gun will overcome the bad machining with use. Then you have a overgassed gun that gets beat to death at a earlier age. This doesn't really make much of a difference to most Saiga owners because they don't really shoot very often.

 

My oldest Saiga 12, a 2001 EAA import has "ONE", gas port. I actually cut the barrel down to 18 1/2 inches. It works fine. It does have more than 5000 rounds through it. It sucked initially.

 

I agree with the comment about over-gassing, that is why I don't want to enlarge the holes anymore than they already are. The gun seems to have an extractor issue but I don't see many posts about solving those. I know someone with a Tromix and I am going to see what he is doing to those guns.

[Spartacus 1,619]

Mike responded with great details!

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51368

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Spartacus,

Thanks for the link, that area will be addressed tomorrow. Mine looks to be a little misshaped and I am hoping this will be a key to getting the gun running right.

[havok 21]

Tested the winchester's today and FTE every round,came home and opened one port to 7/64" and left the other two at 3/32", testing tomarrow.

Also test my friends brand new out the box S-12 and it ran the winchester's 100%, it has three ports.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Tested the winchester's today and FTE every round,came home and opened one port to 7/64" and left the other two at 3/32", testing tomarrow.

Also test my friends brand new out the box S-12 and it ran the winchester's 100%, it has three ports.

 

Man every round! I get pissed if it happens more than once a magazine. Do the FTE cases have any strange marks or bulges in them?

[ErikTaylor 41]

Well I am glad to say that I went to the range today and shot 200 rounds of birdshot FTE FREE!!!!!! This thing is reliable as hell even with birdshot! All the work I did paid off!

[Spartacus 1,619]

Well I am glad to say that I went to the range today and shot 200 rounds of birdshot FTE FREE!!!!!! This thing is reliable as hell even with birdshot! All the work I did paid off!

 

Congrats ET!

 

I had a great day at the range too!

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Bunch of thread Hijackers, I am really love how all your guns are running great and mine still sucks ass! Seriously, I am glad y'all are having success. I have done a few more mods hoping that they make the difference next time I head to the range. As you can imagine I am a little gun shy about getting my hopes up.

[ErikTaylor 41]

Bunch of thread Hijackers, I am really love how all your guns are running great and mine still sucks ass! Seriously, I am glad y'all are having success. I have done a few more mods hoping that they make the difference next time I head to the range. As you can imagine I am a little gun shy about getting my hopes up.

 

I'm sorry bro! If anything this should show there is hope. A week ago I wanted to run this over with a mack truck, but now I don't want it out of my sight! Don't give up my friend!

[ErikTaylor 41]

Nine- Try Mike D's extraction mod. I did that to mine last night before I took it to the range today. I don't know if that's what fixed it as I did a bunch of shit to it in a weeks time, but it's worth a shot!

[jdtravers 637]

Diagnostics on the internet are like tring to figure out why my girlfriend is pissed.

 

When all else is working as designed, my first SWAG would be the ejector. Not too often, but every now and then you get one that is a few thousand too low and you will get intermitent stovepipe type ejection. Just not kicking them out. The Bolt Carrier Group will ride up high on the rails during recoil and the shell case just barely misses the ejector.

 

IF this is the case, I weld them up and extend them .100 for beter ejection and then they rock!!

 

This is another issue easier to discuss over the phone than on the web. I can tell you how to check it out. Give me a call if interested.

 

Good luck!!

 

Jack Travers

JT Engineering

561 317-9096

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Tested the winchester's today and FTE every round,came home and opened one port to 7/64" and left the other two at 3/32", testing tomarrow.

Also test my friends brand new out the box S-12 and it ran the winchester's 100%, it has three ports.

 

Man every round! I get pissed if it happens more than once a magazine. Do the FTE cases have any strange marks or bulges in them?

 

Niner. There is not magic or single fix that can be universally recommended for every gun. S12's are literally hand assembled and fitted at the factory. I agree with Jack that no amount of internet diagnosis is likely to remedy what may either be a single issue or a more complex combination of issues.

 

The notion that every DIY'er on the forum is capable of diagnosing and fixing every issue themselves is conventional wisdom and fallacy. Some guns work fairly well right from the factory, and some simply don't. There are a range of things that come up that people can have a pretty good rate of success with. Others, should probably be tackled by a professional with the tools, experience and knowledge to deal with more complex and thorny issues.

 

Opening gas vents to the correct diameter is a prime example. This is an issue that is quite often remedied under warranty, and in other cases by S12 owners themselves. Polishing internals is another project that many DIY'ers have good success with because reducing friction on the receiver side allows the gun to do its job without having to work against as much friction and drag.

 

However when it comes to sculpting bolts and tuning extractors, FCG's and actions, one begins to get beyond the things that owners can, or probably should do for themselves without risking ruining bolt carriers, bolts, FCG's and other stuff. If spare parts were common and inexpensive enough to allow experimentation this would probably not be as much of an issue, but as much as it sucks - professional or amateur, we get ONE shot to get it right. If we screw it up. Stick a fork in it. What was once a functioning firearm is now an expensive doorstop, or worse yet an undependable or flawed firearm. And, undependable and flawed can be a losing life or death proposition.

 

Our spare parts back up strategy is usually "buy a parts gun". There isn't a professional builder out there who hasn't torn apart at least one gun to get parts to fix others.

 

So by all means take Jack up on his offer for free consulting services to track down the nature of the problem or problems. But don't let anyone con you or bully you into believing you have failed if you have gone as far as you can on your own without resolving the issue.

 

There are plenty of posters on this forum and just about any other forum on the internet who hold themselves out as knowledgeable, when they should really be horsewhipped anytime they get near a keyboard. These folks don't know. They often don't know that they don't know, and are absolutely convinced in the infallibility of their mojo.

 

I don't know how many times I've seen "just put 200 rounds of high brass through it, and everything will be right". Or (and I love this one), just buy XYZ's whirling gas piston, and ZXY's magical gas plug... and everything will be right....

 

Or, your gun is "over gassed" or "under gassed" because your shells eject "X" number of feet from the same armchair gurus who just gave you the last round of useless advice.

 

The ratings system is gone - so I'm just going to put it right out there. Most of the folks who specialize in this kind of advice, have no idea whether what they are constantly reading and repeating is really true. However, they have heard, and repeated same nonsense over and over so many times that to them it has become "truth".

 

The fact is some things work for some guns, and not for others. Just because you someone put 200 rounds of slug ammo through their gun and it didn't break, doesn't mean that 200 rounds of birdshot would not have done the same thing for them at 1/5 the cost. Because they believe it worked for them, doesn't make it true for your firearm or in any way useful to you.

 

Niner - talk to Jack and see if he can help you. If Jack can't work it out over the phone consider sending your gun to him, or to Tom Cole, or another qualified licensed gunsmith and paying them to make your gun work to your satisfaction.

 

You haven't failed my friend. You have simply come to a temporary impasse. The problems with your gun can and will be solved if you are determined enough to to what it takes, and humble (smart) enough to seek professional assistance, whether through warranty repair, or through someone who does this stuff for a living.

 

Good luck! I look forward to a success story very soon.

 

Michael Rogers

Lone Star Arms

[padenbrown 2]

Tested the winchester's today and FTE every round,came home and opened one port to 7/64" and left the other two at 3/32", testing tomarrow.

Also test my friends brand new out the box S-12 and it ran the winchester's 100%, it has three ports.

 

Man every round! I get pissed if it happens more than once a magazine. Do the FTE cases have any strange marks or bulges in them?

 

Niner. There is not magic or single fix that can be universally recommended for every gun. S12's are literally hand assembled and fitted at the factory. I agree with Jack that no amount of internet diagnosis is likely to remedy what may either be a single issue or a more complex combination of issues.

 

The notion that every DIY'er on the forum is capable of diagnosing and fixing every issue themselves is conventional wisdom and fallacy. Some guns work fairly well right from the factory, and some simply don't. There are a range of things that come up that people can have a pretty good rate of success with. Others, should probably be tackled by a professional with the tools, experience and knowledge to deal with more complex and thorny issues.

 

Opening gas vents to the correct diameter is a prime example. This is an issue that is quite often remedied under warranty, and in other cases by S12 owners themselves. Polishing internals is another project that many DIY'ers have good success with because reducing friction on the receiver side allows the gun to do its job without having to work against as much friction and drag.

 

However when it comes to sculpting bolts and tuning extractors, FCG's and actions, one begins to get beyond the things that owners can, or probably should do for themselves without risking ruining bolt carriers, bolts, FCG's and other stuff. If spare parts were common and inexpensive enough to allow experimentation this would probably not be as much of an issue, but as much as it sucks - professional or amateur, we get ONE shot to get it right. If we screw it up. Stick a fork in it. What was once a functioning firearm is now an expensive doorstop, or worse yet an undependable or flawed firearm. And, undependable and flawed can be a losing life or death proposition.

 

Our spare parts back up strategy is usually "buy a parts gun". There isn't a professional builder out there who hasn't torn apart at least one gun to get parts to fix others.

 

So by all means take Jack up on his offer for free consulting services to track down the nature of the problem or problems. But don't let anyone con you or bully you into believing you have failed if you have gone as far as you can on your own without resolving the issue.

 

There are plenty of posters on this forum and just about any other forum on the internet who hold themselves out as knowledgeable, when they should really be horsewhipped anytime they get near a keyboard. These folks don't know. They often don't know that they don't know, and are absolutely convinced in the infallibility of their mojo.

 

I don't know how many times I've seen "just put 200 rounds of high brass through it, and everything will be right". Or (and I love this one), just buy XYZ's whirling gas piston, and ZXY's magical gas plug... and everything will be right....

 

Or, your gun is "over gassed" or "under gassed" because your shells eject "X" number of feet from the same armchair gurus who just gave you the last round of useless advice.

 

The ratings system is gone - so I'm just going to put it right out there. Most of the folks who specialize in this kind of advice, have no idea whether what they are constantly reading and repeating is really true. However, they have heard, and repeated same nonsense over and over so many times that to them it has become "truth".

 

The fact is some things work for some guns, and not for others. Just because you someone put 200 rounds of slug ammo through their gun and it didn't break, doesn't mean that 200 rounds of birdshot would not have done the same thing for them at 1/5 the cost. Because they believe it worked for them, doesn't make it true for your firearm or in any way useful to you.

 

Niner - talk to Jack and see if he can help you. If Jack can't work it out over the phone consider sending your gun to him, or to Tom Cole, or another qualified licensed gunsmith and paying them to make your gun work to your satisfaction.

 

You haven't failed my friend. You have simply come to a temporary impasse. The problems with your gun can and will be solved if you are determined enough to to what it takes, and humble (smart) enough to seek professional assistance, whether through warranty repair, or through someone who does this stuff for a living.

 

Good luck! I look forward to a success story very soon.

 

Michael Rogers

Lone Star Arms

+1 to you waffen lol. but seriously thank you for saying it. it needed to be said. we all dont know exactly what we are doing.and should really ask you gunsmith type on the more serious questions and not just waste money on shit. btw just converted my nib s12 and it shot 250 rounds of low brass almost flawlessly. but yeh dude hope you get the problem worked out soon so you can enjoy your fruits. best of luck.

[IronRonin 19]

I have a newer S12 that runs all ammo 100% out of the factory 5 rounder....but only FTE Federal bulk when used with the MD20 drum (high brass runs 100% out of my MD20). I was wondering if the weight balance with the drum might have something to do with it...because my gun is borderline over-gassed with the factory gas plug when shooting Federal bulk on setting "2".

[padenbrown 2]

i wonder so too. i dont have a drum so i dont know how mine would perform. i just think its shitty that quality varies gun to gun like paulaski has been taking to me about. you would figure something that is so popular would be built with higher quality so people wouldnt have these problems all the time.