Can This S-12 Be Fixed??

[Boba Debt 350]

I sent my new 22" S-12 to Wakal for work and got a total piece of shit back.

 

This gun can not make it though any of the four magazines that I modded to fit my JT Mag Well.

 

It has both Fail to Feed and Fail to Eject issues. I can't even get through a 12 round mag loaded with 8 rounds of 3" OO buck with my Gas Plug set to 3.

 

There is no consistancy to the issues.

 

Apparently it's all my fault, he has offered to fix it but I don't think I can trust him.

 

 

I thought I was getting a gun from a pre-configured batch of his favorite setup (short gas system comp'ed rail guns) that he sold at matches and gun shows.

 

Then I found out he sent me a gun that had thousands of rounds shot through it

 

Should I waste my time trying to fix this gun or is it just worn out?

Edited March 29, 2010 by Boba Debt

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I would give him a chance to make it right.

 

No one is perfect, and I would hope I would get that chance.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

While he should have been clear with you from the start that this was a used gun, I think both sides of the argument have some validity.....

[sure2survive 2]

Sounds like you preformed several mods and it F'd the Gun up. Sounds like your fault to me. Post pictures of the mods you did.

[Boba Debt 350]

Your comment is worthless.

 

Please take a moment to explain how the work I did caused FTF and FTE issues.

 

 

Sounds like you preformed several mods and it F'd the Gun up. Sounds like your fault to me. Post pictures of the mods you did.

[Superhawk138 202]

Boba have you checked over some of the easily forgotten things like gas piston fouling or maybe the trigger spring may have slipped causing the carrier to bind up some?

[Nailbomb 10,221]

If your gun is in the hands of a FFL its his prolem once accepted.

 

I recomend you take wakal back on his offer and send it back. You have NOTHING to lose.

 

you have a gun that does not function. Q: Can it be fixed? A: it is made of metal right?

 

And does this really need 2 topics to draw EXTRA attention to itself? We have enough threads doing that already... Mind trimming it down?

[Boba Debt 350]

Right now the most important issue is the choke.

 

I need to get it permanently attached tomorrow.

 

Can anyone explain an easy way to press it off with common tools with out damaging the gun?

 

Once that is done I think I will tackle the following issues:

 

The hammer sits really high and it takes a lot of pressure to get the bolt past it. Perhaps I need to mod that in some way?

 

I can only see a single hole in the barrel when I look into the gas port. That needs to be investigated.

 

I might have to open up my Gunfixers Gas Plug Ports?

 

Alex said the mag well could be the problem. Mag operation seems pretty smooth, when I remove the hammer and FCG I can slide the bolt across the mag and strip a round very easily. Is there something else I should be looking for?

[Boba Debt 350]

Boba have you checked over some of the easily forgotten things like gas piston fouling or maybe the trigger spring may have slipped causing the carrier to bind up some?

 

 

Yes I checked the simple stuff. I think it has to do with the holes in the gas black and or the high sitting hammer.

[Boba Debt 350]

If your gun is in the hands of a FFL its his prolem once accepted.

 

I recomend you take wakal back on his offer and send it back. You have NOTHING to lose.

 

you have a gun that does not function. Q: Can it be fixed? A: it is made of metal right?

 

And does this really need 2 topics to draw EXTRA attention to itself? We have enough threads doing that already... Mind trimming it down?

 

 

Well Alex and I are really pissed at each other and I'm not sure he would be able to work on my gun with out some bias. As I said I have know the guy for 10 years via the net and have never had a problem with him. I wanted to talk about these problems via the phone but he once he I told him about the problems he responded that he couldn't carry his phone at work, etc?

 

It's really hard diagnosing a gun via pm when it takes 2-3 days to get a reply.

 

 

The two topics cover different asspects.

 

 

The feed back thread is about the ethical issues invloved and this one is about if and how I should fix the gun.

[KrisFox 69]

If your gun is in the hands of a FFL its his prolem once accepted.

 

I recomend you take wakal back on his offer and send it back. You have NOTHING to lose.

 

you have a gun that does not function. Q: Can it be fixed? A: it is made of metal right?

 

And does this really need 2 topics to draw EXTRA attention to itself? We have enough threads doing that already... Mind trimming it down?

 

 

Well Alex and I are really pissed at each other and I'm not sure he would be able to work on my gun with out some bias. As I said I have know the guy for 10 years via the net and have never had a problem with him. I wanted to talk about these problems via the phone but he once he I told him about the problems he responded that he couldn't carry his phone at work, etc?

 

It's really hard diagnosing a gun via pm when it takes 2-3 days to get a reply.

 

 

The two topics cover different asspects.

 

 

The feed back thread is about the ethical issues invloved and this one is about if and how I should fix the gun.

YOU, should not fix the gun.

 

You, should swallow your pride and send it back to Alex with an apology. (Weather he deserves it or not honey works better than piss)

 

As you said the gun is currently a POS. Could Alex make it any worse? Would Alex take the risk of making it dangerous for you to shoot?

 

You got a killer deal. Even if he charges you $200 additional to fix it, your still coming out with a really good gun for the $ assuming it works flawless after.

[sure2survive 2]

Sounds like you preformed several mods and it F'd the Gun up. Sounds like your fault to me. Post pictures of the mods you did.

 

Ok So here is what you said you did...

I wanted to incorporate a few mods so I got busy and did the following.

 

• Removed most of the steel picitinny rail with my band saw and a 4 1/2" grinder. I spent about 3 hours grinding on the welds off, going very slow to keep the gas block from getting too hot
• Replaced the stock with an M-4 style stock
• Silver soldered the G-3 sight set onto it
• Brazed the original Gas Block Holes shut
• Added the quad rail.

Did you add a new magwell also? if so the magwells must be perfectly aligned to feed properly. Also if you are using Surefire mags the barrel hood must be extended or you will have FTF and you may want to get rid of the gaxfixers plug these are only for overgassed guns not undergassed guns.

you should post some good close up pics so members can diagnose the actual problem

[Boba Debt 350]

 

YOU, should not fix the gun.

 

You, should swallow your pride and send it back to Alex with an apology. (Weather he deserves it or not honey works better than piss)

 

As you said the gun is currently a POS. Could Alex make it any worse? Would Alex take the risk of making it dangerous for you to shoot?

 

You got a killer deal. Even if he charges you $200 additional to fix it, your still coming out with a really good gun for the $ assuming it works flawless after.

 

 

You know, thats some good advice.

 

I'm going to contact Alex and try to get past this.

 

To be honest I'm kind of upset that we are at odds with each other.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Boba Debt

[Boba Debt 350]

 

Did you add a new magwell also? if so the magwells must be perfectly aligned to feed properly. Also if you are using Surefire mags the barrel hood must be extended or you will have FTF and you may want to get rid of the gaxfixers plug these are only for overgassed guns not undergassed guns.

you should post some good close up pics so members can diagnose the actual problem

 

The mag well was moved from my gun to this gun and Alex said that both he andFred Test Fired it using a mag I sent without any issues.

 

I tried using the original plug and had the same problems.

 

 

 

What parts should I post pictures of?

[sure2survive 2]

close up of magwell

close up of bolt underside

close up of trigger

close up of gas block and any mods that may affect function

pic of piston puck

 

this will at least give us an idea whats going on

Switching a magwell from one gun to another may be part of the problem it may need to be moved back or forward slightly

[Boba Debt 350]

[Boba Debt 350]

close up of magwell

close up of bolt underside

close up of trigger

close up of gas block and any mods that may affect function

pic of piston puck

 

this will at least give us an idea whats going on

Switching a magwell from one gun to another may be part of the problem it may need to be moved back or forward slightly

 

 

I'll get those posted tomorrow.

 

The mag well worked fine on my 22" gun. The only problem I had was the last round of every mag would not eject completly, it came half way out. It seemed like an odd problem.

 

 

I'm am concerned about slotting the mag well to get it to work. There would always be a chance that it could shift during a shoot.

[sure2survive 2]

QUOTE

The mag well worked fine on my 22" gun. The only problem I had was the last round of every mag would not eject completly, it came half way out. It seemed like an odd problem.

 

Sounds like the mag well or magazine has always had some problems. What brand of mag are you using and what brand of magwell? SureFire mags require the Barrel Hood to be welded to add a little more Top Dead Center Length or else the shell tends to stove pipe. Please remember one saiga 12 to another can be drastically different and need more or less mods for a magwell to properly function

[Boba Debt 350]

QUOTE

The mag well worked fine on my 22" gun. The only problem I had was the last round of every mag would not eject completly, it came half way out. It seemed like an odd problem.

 

Sounds like the mag well or magazine has always had some problems. What brand of mag are you using and what brand of magwell? SureFire mags require the Barrel Hood to be welded to add a little more Top Dead Center Length or else the shell tends to stove pipe. Please remember one saiga 12 to another can be drastically different and need more or less mods for a magwell to properly function

 

 

I just re-read my old threads. That FTE issue was whe the gun was in it's original condition.

 

I didn't have any isses once I did the conversion and added the mag well

 

I have three 12 round Surefire mags and one Keeponshooting 5 round mag.

 

All 4 mags exhibit the same problems.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I sent my new 22" S-12 to Wakal for work and got a total piece of shit back..........

 

 

..................Apparently it's all my fault, he has offered to fix it...........

So you decide instead to slander his name here rather than have a professional who is familiar with it assure it works?

 

Great strategy.

Not exactly what I would do, but hey... Whatever's clever.

 

[Boba Debt 350]

So you decide instead to slander his name here rather than have a professional who is familiar with it assure it works?

 

Great strategy.

Not exactly what I would do, but hey... Whatever's clever.

 

 

 

Not that YOU deserve or even want an explanation but I will waste my time giving you one anyway.

 

Would you send your gun back after reading this:

 

Send the fucking gun back.

 

I was holding the choke straight when Fred was heating the silver solder...I have no idea what you have done to it, and I've had enough of your ranting and incompetent attempts at garage gunsmithing. You have three goddamn ports...one large and two small, one centered and two angled at the edge of the gas block. We drilled all three the same size, then took the gun apart and redrilled the center until until the fucking gun cycled. We do the same fucking thing every fucking time because it fucking works.

 

 

Put all four magazines in the fucking box. I'll get the gun running AGAIN and sent it back. I normally talk people through working these guns up, but you are a Special Case. Everyone gets those from time to time.

 

BTW, there are pictures on on my godsdamned website of Fred shooting THAT GUN at the 2008 USPSA 3-Gun nationals. Good enough to take to the Big Show, after all. At least, it was when we had it.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Boba Debt

[Rockina 60]

Boba your a freaking CRY baby who's way smarter (in your opinion) than everyone, so why ask anyone here ???

 

Sell the POS for $ 50.00 and move on, some of us have been waiting for you to make your exit (again), it's only a matter of time !!!

Edited March 29, 2010 by Rockina

[Racer 27 37]

QUOTE

SureFire mags require the Barrel Hood to be welded to add a little more Top Dead Center Length or else the shell tends to stove pipe.

 

 

I ran into this problem when I was making my 15 round steel mags. I put in the AGP mag spring and the problem went away. I don't remember the exact length but the AGP is like 4" longer.

 

From what I saw, to me it looks like Surefire mags need a stronger spring.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Sounds to me like a simple case of two hard heads banging into each other.

[PRISONSHANK 70]

Boba your a freaking CRY baby who's way smarter (in your opinion) than everyone, so why ask anyone here ???

 

Sell the POS for $ 50.00 and move on, some of us have been waiting for you to make your exit (again), it's only a matter of time !!!

 

+1

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Boba,

 

Since you are still looking into the simple stuff, have you checked to see if the puck moves back and forth easily. You stated that you took your time to prevent overheating while grinding, but there is still the possibility that it may have warped a little and the puck could be binding. This MAY or COULD be a cause for the problems that you are having.

 

On the other hand, this is the first that I have ever heard of problems with guns from Alex. Personally, I would try and set everything aside and get the gun back to him for a fix, if that option is still available. As far as the USED gun is concerned and the price that you paid for it, I would be happy to send Alex a new gun to get one of his match guns in return, no matter how many rounds have been shot through it. It's an AK, how many of those have you seen worn out?

[Boba Debt 350]

100% RELIABILITY HAS BEEN ACHIEVED

 

It is very apparent that my modifications did not cause the problems.

 

If you read this entire thread (including the PMs) you will see that Alex lied and sold me pos gun that I fixed with some help from the forum:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=52580&st=0

 

Knowing what I know now I would not recommend Alex to anyone for work. Lucky for me his shoddy work only cost me a couple hundred dollars to fix (ammo, parts and supplies)

 

It could have put me in jail since an ATF agent would not have been impressed with a choke that was pressed onto a short barrel.

 

In a way I am actually glad I had to fix this gun, I learned a lot so it was money well spent.