Should I cut the barrel?

[jahwarrior1423 0]

My Saiga is being converted by a local gunsmith here in AZ and I would like to know if I should or should not cut my barrel. Because it will be easier to have him do the work now while it's being converted rather than bringing it to him later in the future.

 

My plans for my Saiga is to match it as close as possible to the AK. I got the Dinzag AK rear sight block conversion and front sight post already ordered and my gunsmith has a trigger guard that matches almost to an AK trigger guard.

 

Now, the only thing I am thinking about now is should I cut the barrel to 16" and perm. attach a AK74 brake and make it 18".

 

Im not looking to build an ultimate competition shotgun but would like to enter a few matches here and there for fun. So I am worried that, if I do cut the barrel, will it make it difficult in competitions with the difference in barrel lengths? or can I just use different load shells to make up the difference in barrel lengths? will there be disadvantages in having a shorter barrel? How does the AK74 brake perform?

 

And also; if I do cut the barrel, I will need to decide which brake I want because it will be a perm. attach brake so it can be 18" overall.

 

Soooo, I am just looking for advice from guys that have used shorter barrel shotguns in competitions or have patterned the spread of them. And also from guys that have used the AK74 brakes and how the perform...I know there's a ton of brakes on the market.

Edited July 6, 2010 by jahwarrior1423

[Paulyski 2,227]

My Saiga is being converted by a local gunsmith here in AZ and I would like to know if I should or should not cut my barrel. Because it will be easier to have him do the work now while it's being converted rather than bringing it to him later in the future.

 

My plans for my Saiga is to match it as close as possible to the AK. I got the Dinzag AK rear sight block conversion and front sight post already ordered and my gunsmith has a trigger guard that matches almost to an AK trigger guard.

 

Now, the only thing I am thinking about now is should I cut the barrel to 16" and perm. attach a AK74 brake and make it 18".

 

Im not looking to build an ultimate competition shotgun but would like to enter a few matches here and there for fun. So I am worried that, if I do cut the barrel, will it make it difficult in competitions with the difference in barrel lengths? or can I just use different load shells to make up the difference in barrel lengths? will there be disadvantages in having a shorter barrel? How does the AK74 brake perform?

 

And also; if I do cut the barrel, I will need to decide which brake I want because it will be a perm. attach brake so it can be 18" overall.

 

Soooo, I am just looking for advice from guys that have used shorter barrel shotguns in competitions or have patterned the spread of them. And also from guys that have used the AK74 brakes and how the perform...I know there's a ton of brakes on the market.

Get dinzag's AK style break & bayonet.

 

Your plan is what I'll eventually do.

But keep in mind, your smith will have to enlarge your ports when you do this.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

On a rifle, the ak-74 brake works extremely well. On a shotgun, not so much. Most of the brakes out there for the saga 12 is mainly looks and very little performance. Now the mid-bbl comps are an exception.

 

As for cutting the barrel down to 16", more than likely you will have to modify your gas ports as well (enlarge). With that said, even some stock saigas with a brake attached to the end of the bbl might require additional gas pressure, just depends on your guns efficiency. With the mid-bbl brakes, gas port mods are definitely needed.

 

I can't help you with competition rules

[jahwarrior1423 0]

Ya, he already has experience with Saiga's. Here is a picture of what he built himself. He actually told me about Dinzag and said it would easier and cheaper if I went to Dinzag rather than him doing all the work for the sight block.

 

But this picture is what I am thinking about doing. The only difference would be the furniture.

 

 

Im just wondering if there will be any disadvantages in cutting the barrel to 16" and using a AK74 brake for competition?...

 

For the people that use the AK74 brake...how does it perform?

Edited July 6, 2010 by jahwarrior1423

[jahwarrior1423 0]

And what I mean by competition...is the distances you may need to shoot with a shotgun. What's the distance difference that you can shoot with a 16" and 19" barrel?

[hobbyshooter 59]

If you are going to shoot competitively you should be looking at chokes. Not shortening the barrel and muzzle "bling".

[jahwarrior1423 0]

If you are going to shoot competitively you should be looking at chokes. Not shortening the barrel and muzzle "bling".

 

 

Im just looking for the advantages and disadvantages between a 16" and 19" barrel and members detailed experience with the AK74 brake.

[BuzzNectar 35]

If you are going to shoot competitively you should be looking at chokes. Not shortening the barrel and muzzle "bling".

 

 

Im just looking for the advantages and disadvantages between a 16" and 19" barrel and members detailed experience with the AK74 brake.

 

im kinda thinking a happy medium might be to do a polychoke instead of a break.that way you basicly even out the loss of length for your distance/pattern while looking cool.you probably should ream out the gas ports a bit for whatever decision you go with to help ensure good cycling.either way it looks like you have good taste and good luck with it.

[6500rpm 670]

I think the difference between a 16" + muzzle brake vs a 19" barrel are probably going to be pretty much a wash. Figure you're just shooting cylinder bore and the only way to make up for lack of choke is going to be ammo specific and some of that may be disallowed in competition. It's been a few years since I had my Tromix AK 74 style brake, but as I recall, other than looking good it pretty much just made the gun louder as the shooter. No real positive recoil reduction or patern benefit. This was threaded on a 18 1/4" barrel fwiw. Cool little add on, but if your not satisfied with how your gun patterns right now with no choke, I wouldn't cut my barrel back and limit my options. (or you can follow the addiction and buy 2,3,4,.....Saiga 12's and make everyone different so you always have a choice:rolleyes: )

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Well I cut my barrel down from 19" to 15" and attached the DPH phantom brake. Prior to the work this gun would eat everything even Federal bulk 7 1/2 on setting #1 on the Gunfixer plug so I was sure cutting the barrel would make almost no impact on the cycling. Wrong I needed to open up the gas ports about 80 thousandths to get the gun to reliably cycle again. The gun still shoots clays fairly well but my other 19" barrel gun shoots much better and holds a tighter pattern. If I was shooting for competition the last thing I would do would be to cut the barrel down.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Well I cut my barrel down from 19" to 15" and attached the DPH phantom brake. Prior to the work this gun would eat everything even Federal bulk 7 1/2 on setting #1 on the Gunfixer plug so I was sure cutting the barrel would make almost no impact on the cycling. Wrong I needed to open up the gas ports about 80 thousandths to get the gun to reliably cycle again. The gun still shoots clays fairly well but my other 19" barrel gun shoots much better and holds a tighter pattern. If I was shooting for competition the last thing I would do would be to cut the barrel down.

 

I'm confused. Did you open the ports to .080" or you made them all .080" bigger? It's good the hear from someone who has experienced something so many ask about and never seem to get a solid answer. Thank you for contributing.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Cutting the barrel down past 18" is silly IMO.

 

One, you lose the ability to take off the comp/brake and with some matches allowing IRON-SIGHT and NON-Ported/Comp'd Saigas in Tactical instead of open, being able to take off the brake is something i would want.

 

Also, you'll get MUCH more performance out of CHOKES than you will with any other muzzle attachment. For the muzzle brake to do anything, it needs to vent gasses away and most 12ga attachments have very little surface area to work with.

 

IMO, if i were starting over and making a 12ga competition gun i'd do the following:

 

Ghost ring sights for irons with a clamp on barrel front post, no mid-barrel comp, no magwell. Internally rem-choked barrel at 18.25" and a shortened gas system... And for an optic a quick detach red-dot either on the rail or drilled and tapped into the rear of the receiver (ALA- http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-311/Saiga-sight-mount-JTE/Detail)

 

With a little practice, you can load a full mag on a closed bolt and you never have to fiddle-fuck around with tweaking the mags.

 

What you gain with a mid-barrel comp, you could also gain with a shortened gas system shooting 7/8 oz loads at 1300fps.

 

~SN

[jahwarrior1423 0]

Well, I am not looking to build a competition shotgun. I would go about this build a far different way if I was.

 

I am building this Saiga into a fun shooter but am also interested in entering low-level competitions for some fun.

 

That's why I am asking what kind of performance differences I will see between a 16" barrel and a 19" barrel.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

The answer seems pretty clear: if you want to compete with your S-12, don't cut the barrel down. If you do, you're handicapping yourself.

 

If you do decide to cut it and use a permanent muzzle attachment to get the overall length to ~18.1", a Polychoke would be a much better choice than any S-12 "muzzle brake".

 

A Polychoke will tighten your shot patterns and enhance your gun's performance. A "muzzle brake" will do nothing but make your gun louder to the shooter, and perhaps look "cool". I'm not a fan of em, as you can probably tell.

 

ymmv.

[BobAsh 582]

...I am asking what kind of performance differences I will see between a 16" barrel and a 19" barrel.

 

1) You will definetly have to re-gas your gun to make it run as reliably as it did before. That means opening the ports or moving the gas block.

 

2) Your pattern will be slightly wider. How much? it's impossible to say, too many variables.

 

3) Since you will have a permanently attached muzzle device, it effectively nullifies any tactical advantage of a short gun.

 

The only reason to do this is cosmetic, IMO. Some guys want the shortest-looking barrel they can get.

[jahwarrior1423 0]

...I am asking what kind of performance differences I will see between a 16" barrel and a 19" barrel.

 

1) You will definetly have to re-gas your gun to make it run as reliably as it did before. That means opening the ports or moving the gas block.

 

2) Your pattern will be slightly wider. How much? it's impossible to say, too many variables.

 

3) Since you will have a permanently attached muzzle device, it effectively nullifies any tactical advantage of a short gun.

 

The only reason to do this is cosmetic, IMO. Some guys want the shortest-looking barrel they can get.

 

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I know my thread is very general...

 

And the only reason I am asking is because it will be easier for my smith to cut the barrel and do what needs to be done to the gas ports while my shotgun is being converted now rather than having him convert it and cut the barrel and adjust the ports in the future.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Well I cut my barrel down from 19" to 15" and attached the DPH phantom brake. Prior to the work this gun would eat everything even Federal bulk 7 1/2 on setting #1 on the Gunfixer plug so I was sure cutting the barrel would make almost no impact on the cycling. Wrong I needed to open up the gas ports about 80 thousandths to get the gun to reliably cycle again. The gun still shoots clays fairly well but my other 19" barrel gun shoots much better and holds a tighter pattern. If I was shooting for competition the last thing I would do would be to cut the barrel down.

 

I'm confused. Did you open the ports to .080" or you made them all .080" bigger? It's good the hear from someone who has experienced something so many ask about and never seem to get a solid answer. Thank you for contributing.

 

 

Went 77 thousandths bigger, from 3/32 to #38 roughly from .0938 to .1015. Of course I had an experimental coating put on the gun at the same time so I think it created some issues with cycling as well as the shortened barrel. I think the bigger gas ports have solved the cycling issues but I will know more this weekend once I put a few hundred rounds through it to verify my latest range trip.

[6500rpm 670]

You can also always cut it back to 18.1" and have it internally threaded for Rem or Tru chokes. Drops the length a bit and gives you plenty of chokes to choose from.

These guys do a good job at a fair price-comes with 3 chokes and a tool.

http://www.choketube.com/

[hobbyshooter 59]

If you go the shortened route with a permanent attached poly choke keep in mind that the barrel length needs to be measured without the adjuster ring on the poly choke since that is not part of the permanent barrel length. Measure from the bolt face to the end of the choke fingers.

 

Maybe what you should be thinking is more along the lines of 2 S12s. One short one with the muzzle bling of your choice, and one choked gun for competition & clay shooting. That's what I did and I couldn't be happier with the decision.

Edited July 8, 2010 by hobbyshooter

[jahwarrior1423 0]

Hopefully this video works...he is a member here and is local to me (glockmonger). But his video is the type of competitions I am thinking. The distances arent that far at all...

 

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/uu291/Glockmonger_Gunsmithing/shooting/?action=view&current=1-1.mp4

 

 

 

**edit**

Anyways, I gave the go ahead to my gunsmith to cut the barrel. I figured I wanted a fun shotgun to shoot more than a "competition" gun. If anything, I can buy another one and build it strictly for competitions.

Edited July 9, 2010 by jahwarrior1423

[BobAsh 582]

Went 77 thousandths bigger, from 3/32 to #38 roughly from .0938 to .1015.

 

No, that's only .008" (eight thousanths) bigger,

 

77 thousanths bigger would be huge.

[oldandslow 3]

I shoot three gun 1 or 2 times a month. A Saiga shotgun is kind of like a drag race car. Stuff you never knew would happen, happens.

My Saiga has a 19 inch barrel. I use a "half" Saiga choke. I find this is effective knocking down steel and breaking clays. I have a Polychoke, but it doesn't let me knock down steel as effectively.

 

I use a "home built" magazine well, that mimics the JTE mag well. I use AGP magazines modified to fit. If the magazines wiggle front to back, expect jams.

 

I also use a red dot mini mounted on the rear sight dovetail.

 

I like the JTE magazine release extension.

 

If you shoot a Saiga in USPSA 3 gun, you are in open class. What this really means is a $3500 gun from R&R to be competitive at the big matches. In the monthly club matches, I win unless a Grand Master shows up.

 

Don't cut the barrel.

Edited July 9, 2010 by oldandslow

[BuzzNectar 35]

Hopefully this video works...he is a member here and is local to me (glockmonger). But his video is the type of competitions I am thinking. The distances arent that far at all...

 

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/uu291/Glockmonger_Gunsmithing/shooting/?action=view&current=1-1.mp4

 

 

 

**edit**

Anyways, I gave the go ahead to my gunsmith to cut the barrel. I figured I wanted a fun shotgun to shoot more than a "competition" gun. If anything, I can buy another one and build it strictly for competitions.

 

there ya go!one mean one for the cool factor and evil up close spread,and another for performance/distance to spank your competition.means more bucks but then you have two tools instead of one.good luck!

[jahwarrior1423 0]

here's my freshly finished shotgun. Glad I decided to cut the barrel. Hoping to take it out this weekend. My shotgun is the black furniture and my gunsmiths is the wood.

[JagerTroop 0]

Well I cut my barrel down from 19" to 15" and attached the DPH phantom brake. Prior to the work this gun would eat everything even Federal bulk 7 1/2 on setting #1 on the Gunfixer plug so I was sure cutting the barrel would make almost no impact on the cycling. Wrong I needed to open up the gas ports about 80 thousandths to get the gun to reliably cycle again. The gun still shoots clays fairly well but my other 19" barrel gun shoots much better and holds a tighter pattern. If I was shooting for competition the last thing I would do would be to cut the barrel down.

 

I did exactly the same thing (well, almost). I had my 19" cut down to 15.25" then had a custom brake (that I made) welded on, giving me 18.25"

 

I had to open my gas ports (4) to .09375" (3/32") to get it to function with cheap Walmart Federal. Prior to the mods, it ate EVERYTHING!

 

No big deal though. Easy fix.