saiga scout concept

[huntingohio 0]

I joined today because ive been kicking around a concept for a few days and figured here would be the best place to get opinions and refences. I love "scout" type rifles for fast targeting and just general utility. Right now i run a homebrew turk mauser setup. In reading col coopers articles i found the requirements for the true scout rifle and realized that it didnt just apply to bolt rifles, now im an ak fan boy so i thought immediately "holy crap i could use a SAIGA!!!" . Now i know the saiga comes with a side rail and technically by deffinition a lower power conventionally mounted scope still makes a scout. The cartridge requirement is that it can take game weighing up to 600lbs, now that sounds like a strech for 7.62x39 but i read an article in a survival magazine about innuit trides hunting moose with sks and aks, and i imagine it would very much discourage a bear from screwing with you. Its gonna go over the weight requirement but thats ok with me i dont mind chunky ones if its gonna be ak durable. now heres my thoughts on what i should do

 

concept

side mounted low power scope prolly a 4x max

rear sight modified with a washer to a ghost ring

replace guts for 922r

keep furniture

 

but im new to saiga so i could use references

I heard it was possible to convert to ak mags how?

will it reliably feed sp and hp ammo?

what kind of accuracy can i expect, im kinda hopin for 2-3 moa with good quality ammo, am i nuts 4 doing so?

 

please any input an refernces will be much appriciated

[Salmonking 149]

I joined today because ive been kicking around a concept for a few days and figured here would be the best place to get opinions and refences. I love "scout" type rifles for fast targeting and just general utility. Right now i run a homebrew turk mauser setup. In reading col coopers articles i found the requirements for the true scout rifle and realized that it didnt just apply to bolt rifles, now im an ak fan boy so i thought immediately "holy crap i could use a SAIGA!!!" . Now i know the saiga comes with a side rail and technically by deffinition a lower power conventionally mounted scope still makes a scout. The cartridge requirement is that it can take game weighing up to 600lbs, now that sounds like a strech for 7.62x39 but i read an article in a survival magazine about innuit trides hunting moose with sks and aks, and i imagine it would very much discourage a bear from screwing with you. Its gonna go over the weight requirement but thats ok with me i dont mind chunky ones if its gonna be ak durable. now heres my thoughts on what i should do

 

concept

side mounted low power scope prolly a 4x max

rear sight modified with a washer to a ghost ring

replace guts for 922r

keep furniture

 

but im new to saiga so i could use references

I heard it was possible to convert to ak mags how?

will it reliably feed sp and hp ammo?

what kind of accuracy can i expect, im kinda hopin for 2-3 moa with good quality ammo, am i nuts 4 doing so?

 

please any input an refernces will be much appriciated

 

You can convert to AK mags through use of a bullet guide. It's a simple tap and install process with how to's all over the forum.

 

Mine's been extremely reliable with any kind of ammo I've fed down the tube. Silver Bear SP rocks!

 

As for accuracy, that depends on the shooter, ammo, and situation. with a bench I've gotten 2 MOA at the range with that Silver Bear SP. Here's a recent page depicting multiple people's range results.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58261

[t3mac21 1]

Are you a scout? lol this whole concept makes me laugh. Moose? Ok, you can kill anything with sharp stick too, doesn't mean it's the best idea. modified sight with a washer?

[t3mac21 1]

The saiga and AK's in general are good plinkers, SHTF guns and are well suited to hunting game up to the size of whitetail deer but, from the sounds of your post, the rifle you're looking for is a lever action marlin 336 chambered for .35 remington or better. It will take large game within 200-250 yards, it's quick handling, reasonably light, you can mount a scout scope on it, and it's fast with follow up shots.

[mav 459]

The actual term "scout" rifle implies a forward mounted long eye relief scope, what your describing is just a scoped Saiga.

 

I have actually kicked around the idea of "scouting" a Saiga myself, and I might do it and take pics, just for shits and giggles, I have all the components, (7.62x39 Saiga with Ultimak, and Weaver 2-7x pistol scope) if I do it I will post about it.

[GregM1 241]

instead of the modified washer rear sight, there are several companies that make a rear peep sight. 4x is a standard scope size with the ak round. also, if you want to use saiga specific mags with the original furniture, you could go with surefire magazines and you will not need a bullet guide installed. that will also count as 3 of the 4 parts you will need. You could replace the forearm or piston with a US production piece to be compliant. under 4" @ 100y is a common group with saigas, depending on the shooter.

[huntingohio 0]

instead of the modified washer rear sight, there are several companies that make a rear peep sight. 4x is a standard scope size with the ak round. also, if you want to use saiga specific mags with the original furniture, you could go with surefire magazines and you will not need a bullet guide installed. that will also count as 3 of the 4 parts you will need. You could replace the forearm or piston with a US production piece to be compliant. under 4" @ 100y is a common group with saigas, depending on the shooter.

 

well im a good shot usally can do moa with my scout and match ammo from prone with a ching sling, i planneded on replaceing the fcg to get a trigger with less slop and a lighter pull, and a gass piston to make it 922r compliant. i have a couple us made ak mags. i was not aware of these companies that made a peep sight ill have to google it up, the reason i suggeseted a washer it because on my mauser i put a xs peep sight and it was just to small for quick tageting so i took out the ring and silver soldered on a washer ith a larger hole.

 

Im not planning on moose hunting with it im not that dumb i just was stating that is pressed its possible, from what i read that inuit tribe only spined them to get a for sure kill. im not dangerous game hunting just stating that its possible.

 

and if you read coopers [basically the guy that came up with the idea] inital scout writings from 1988 yes youd be right its only forward mounted optics, but in 1992 or so he stated that low power rear mounter optics were acceptable as long as they gave clear access to the chamber, and he upped the weight limit 2.2 lbs loaded

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Hey huntingohio, your projects sounds cool and I have an idea for you. Look into purchasing an Ultimak M1-B gas tube rail, this replaces your gas tube with a combination tube/rail that clamps onto the barrel for a rock solid platform, and allows you to mount rail mounted optics onto the front of the rifle in a scout configuration. Also, all you need to do is carefully measure and cut some of the factory forearm away, and the rail fits seamlessly into the factory handguard and has a very clean and unique look. I used to run the setup pictured below on a 5.45 with a red dot, you could do the same thing with a long eye relief scope as well of course. Just watch out for heat dissipation, make sure you go with a quality optic that can withstand the heat as it gets very hot above the gas tube.

 

Edited September 26, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[t3mac21 1]

I guess I just fail to see the purpose of his intent.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

I guess I just fail to see the purpose of his intent.

 

He wants a forward mounted optic on a factory configured Saiga. It's not my ideal weapon, no, but it's certainly not a bad gun and will shoot and work just fine.

 

Considering some of the god awful mall ninja abortions that have been posted lately, this guy's gun is a refreshing break

 

I meant to give you a +1 but my butterfingers hit the wrong button. Sorry man.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[huntingohio 0]

Ok so to put it in the most basic terms this is what the concept of the rifle comes from. In one of coopers writings after he describles the specifications of the scout rifle he goes on to say something to this effect. A scout rifle is a rifle that should be versitle enough to handle any chore a rifle might be called to do, Be light and compact enough to be on hand when said chore arises. It also should be as accurate as a shooter can comfortably fire I bacically want to build a rifle that would be appropriate for everything from a gunfight to dropping a buck to plinking to a shtf rifle.

 

here is what i plan to do and short explanations on why

base rifle- a 16 in 7.62x39 saiga to ba as compact and light weight as possible

 

scope- use the standard side rail to mount a lower maybe 4x optic, i wont need to shoot farther than 300m tops so that should do for a man sized target.

 

sights- rear peep or larger ghost ring sight, my personal preferance for accurate irons

 

Furniture- keep stock furniture maybe mount a rail on the left side of the forend for a flashlight

 

internals - upgrade to make 922r compliant instalbullet guide and convert to ak mags

 

install a ching sling

 

 

Basically this rifle would be used for everything, it could be used to fight a war put game on the table, or plink cans. I dont want to pistol grip it and rail it up, so i dont get wierd look from and dnr guys that happen to see me hunting with it, The ak mag conversion gives you the ability to used 30 rd magazines if you needed to use it for defense or 5- 10 round mags for hunting. The ching sling is just my personal preference because it gives you the ability to use it as a shooting sling, and give you a comfortable non mall ninja way to carry the rifle.

 

 

[nsdhanoa 13]

There are actually pretty specific guidelines for being a "scout rifle". You could turn a Saiga into a quasi-scout by putting an extended eye relief scope on it, but to stick to the formula I would go with a 16" .308 even though it is a bit heavier than specified. I think the weight is one of the prime factors for Jeff Cooper's original concept, which is why most real "scout rifles" are based on bolt actions. They don't require a much heavier action for a 30 caliber or higher gun as opposed to semi autos which get much heavier as the caliber goes up. I would love a Steyr Scout style fold out bipod-handguard for the Saiga though. That would be sweet

 

 

 

"By the definition of the Scout Rifle Conferences held under the auspices of Jeff Cooper the scout rifle has been defined as a general purpose rifle suitable for taking targets of up to 400 kg (880 pounds) at ranges to the limit of the shooters visibility (nominally 300 meters) that meets the following criteria:

 

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).

Length: 1 meter (39 inches)

Nominal barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)

Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope, also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope.

Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.

Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.

Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm). Calibers such as 7 mm - 08 Remington (7 x 51 mm) or .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.

Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.

Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups)."

 

 

[jcmacconnell 25]

I kinda like this idea. I have a sgl 21 however I was looking into a 308 saiga. How is the accuracy of these. I have been getting 1-1.5 MOA with my sgl using federal ammo.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I used the mount HERE for about two months putting about 1K rounds though it an went back to irons. Two things here due to the height of the mount and scope even using 2.75x22 scope with low rings it did not sit comfortable even with a cheek pad. Also toting the rifle in brush found it getting in the way. Lastly the balance of the rifle went too far forward with the weight causing some discomfort there.

 

Accuracy was fine, good actually, it was fast targeting no doubt and able to keep both eyes open was nice just wasn't for me is all. If you want a mount I have one I could let go of since its the only scout mount that even should be considered the rest are junk.

 

Dont listen to the purists about what is or is not a scout rifle you have it right as far as the optics go.

 

See this link here for performance

Edited September 27, 2010 by Rhodes1968

[Berzerker2 19]

I joined today because ive been kicking around a concept for a few days and figured here would be the best place to get opinions and refences. I love "scout" type rifles for fast targeting and just general utility. Right now i run a homebrew turk mauser setup. In reading col coopers articles i found the requirements for the true scout rifle and realized that it didnt just apply to bolt rifles, now im an ak fan boy so i thought immediately "holy crap i could use a SAIGA!!!" . Now i know the saiga comes with a side rail and technically by deffinition a lower power conventionally mounted scope still makes a scout. The cartridge requirement is that it can take game weighing up to 600lbs, now that sounds like a strech for 7.62x39 but i read an article in a survival magazine about innuit trides hunting moose with sks and aks, and i imagine it would very much discourage a bear from screwing with you. Its gonna go over the weight requirement but thats ok with me i dont mind chunky ones if its gonna be ak durable. now heres my thoughts on what i should do

 

concept

side mounted low power scope prolly a 4x max

rear sight modified with a washer to a ghost ring

replace guts for 922r

keep furniture

 

but im new to saiga so i could use references

I heard it was possible to convert to ak mags how?

will it reliably feed sp and hp ammo?

what kind of accuracy can i expect, im kinda hopin for 2-3 moa with good quality ammo, am i nuts 4 doing so?

 

please any input an refernces will be much appriciated

 

I like the scout configuration. I have left eye dominance but am right handed so a scout set up allows me to use my sight with both eyes open

[TackDriver 1]

I have actually kicked around the idea of "scouting" a Saiga myself, and I might do it and take pics, just for shits and giggles, I have all the components, (7.62x39 Saiga with Ultimak, and Weaver 2-7x pistol scope) if I do it I will post about it.

 

Yeah, do that, please.

 

I am working towards a Tech Sight/ Ultimak/ low power scout scope setup for my S.308, but have hit an impass with Ultimak not having a .308 compatible tube yet. I would like to get a view of yours first if possible.

[jamesavery22 54]

"The Kalashni-Scout"

http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=66677

 

 

7.62x39 does not meet the "requirement" to take 600lbs game though...

 

Forget what you want the outer limits to be. Whats probable to run into?

 

If 600lbs is probable then 45-70 or brenneke black magic.

Forget the AK.

The only thing an AK is guaranteed to do to a bear is piss it off.

[HarvKY 72]

Midway has the Millett 1-4x24 DMS tactical scope on sale in their October specials flier $199

 

A lot of people have spoken highly of it for CQB and/or scout setups

 

No personal experience myself

 

Good luck

 

HarvKY

[TackDriver 1]

"The Kalashni-Scout"

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I was on the fence about this setup, but after seeing that.........I'm done. Unfortunately, my Ultimak doesn't have a rail for my .308 yet.

 

 

Midway has the Millett 1-4x24 DMS tactical scope on sale in their October specials flier $199

 

A lot of people have spoken highly of it for CQB and/or scout setups

 

As much as I would love to be wrong, the 1-4x DMS doesn't have the eye relief necessary to be used in a scout style setup.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

"The Kalashni-Scout"

http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=66677

snip pic

 

 

7.62x39 does not meet the "requirement" to take 600lbs game though...

 

Forget what you want the outer limits to be. Whats probable to run into?

 

If 600lbs is probable then 45-70 or brenneke black magic.

Forget the AK.

The only thing an AK is guaranteed to do to a bear is piss it off.

Excellent results you have there , well done.

The first first shot maybe if placement isnt good but the bear will calm down a lot after the third or fourth even with FMJ, not something to take bear hunting on purpose but it will kill anything that walks in range. Heck poachers even use them to take down elephants, nothing is immune to gunfire. Please route complaints though proper channels.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Rhodes1968

[BpS12 512]

I think you're going to get some really odd looks, if not arrested, if you're hunting deer with a rifle in Ohio. Last I knew, shotgun/handgun/archery only. I suppose that could have changed in the last year, but....?

 

Honestly, that's why I went S12 first and will be getting a rifle later. Priorities, Home defence/hunting/SHtF then makeing war, lol.

[BpS12 512]

"The Kalashni-Scout"

http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=66677

 

 

7.62x39 does not meet the "requirement" to take 600lbs game though...

 

Forget what you want the outer limits to be. Whats probable to run into?

 

If 600lbs is probable then 45-70 or brenneke black magic.

Forget the AK.

The only thing an AK is guaranteed to do to a bear is piss it off.

 

 

 

Are the large calibers better? Oh hel yes. But I've seen bear taken with a .30-30(same basic balistics as an AK). So yes it doable, though I would consider soft tips/hollw points preferable to FMJs.

 

Just a thought,

[jamesavery22 54]

Thats not my rifle guys. Just copied from warriortalk. Believe thats suarez's...

 

Anything can be brought down by sustained small arms fire. Heck even helicopters!

 

Just don't keep looking at everything as a nail because you have a hammer in your hand