Bull Pup Grip on a Draco Pistol

[Boba Debt 350]

I'm brilliant if this is legal without any sort of stamp.

 

Would it be possible to remove the back pistol grip and install the KVAR Bull Pup forward grip with my Quad Rail System?

 

I would not use the butt stock, instead I would just install some type of trigger guard cover and there would be no forward assist grip either.

 

This would balance out the platform and make it quite usable.

[dlcjr1973 24]

Can't comment on legalities, but I like the idea. Maybe you could mock up a couple concept pics?

 

Regards,

 

Sapper

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Definitely check with the tech branch before building. Could be they decide it's like the old Bushmaster pistol, not enough rear end to constitute a buttstock. Could be they decide it looks like it's intended to be fired from the shoulder and is an SBR.

 

Unless someone has done it before, in exactly the same fashion, don't do it without the ok from the tech branch.

[YARP 300]

This being discussed on another forum as we speak. Shandlanos hit it on the head. Still waiting to hear back from the powers that be......

[MT Predator 2,294]

So you are wanting to create a heavy in the rear/unbalanced pistol with a shitty bullpup trigger from one that is already shootable? I don't get it.

[Salmonking 149]

Get a damn good flash-suppressor. Your eyebrows will thank you .

[YARP 300]

So you are wanting to create a heavy in the rear/unbalanced pistol with a shitty bullpup trigger from one that is already shootable? I don't get it.

 

Don't know how much time you've spent shooting rifle caliber pistols but....

With the weight transferred to the back of the gun most of it sitting behind your shooting grip hand the "pistol" is easier to control. You can also finally get some of a cheek weld (like using the AR pistol buffer), you just have to not be a pussy about putting your face over the receiver (last I checked no Draco AKs have blown, again, can't be scared). With a good sling the push technique with no pull (no push, pull....just push) the weapon becomes highly controllable allowing for faster shot to shot time. The trigger pull isn't that bad, it's a minute of man weapon not a fuckin sniper rifle.......

[BpS12 512]

Doable, ya.

 

Legal, good luck.

 

I'd like to do it with a SBS but can't yet afford the stamp.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

How about an MS paint mock-up? I'm not following what you want to do.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

If you live in NC why not just get an SBR stamp instead of concocting some gray area piece of crap?

 

(last I checked no Draco AKs have blown)

 

Might want to check again, GunWebsites on Youtube has a video showing an exploded one, also another thread of one here in the x39 forum a few weeks ago.

 

There's a lot of places I'd rather not stick my face, on the dust cover of a Draco inches away from the chamber is near the top of that list

Edited November 16, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[nutical 16]

Wouldn't it be consider AOW the the grip and all?

[YARP 300]

If you live in NC why not just get an SBR stamp instead of concocting some gray area piece of crap?

 

(last I checked no Draco AKs have blown)

 

Might want to check again, GunWebsites on Youtube has a video showing an exploded one, also another thread of one here in the x39 forum a few weeks ago.

 

There's a lot of places I'd rather not stick my face, on the dust cover of a Draco inches away from the chamber is near the top of that list

 

No offense ace but after watching the video your talking about it sounds like a couple things......Did the dustcover get put on correctly? Was it a HOT load?

Last but not least did he check the gas system (I've checked every gun I've ever purchased for something out of the ordinary) to see if there were anything out of the ordinary?

The damage is NOT so bad that even if his face was on top of it (as opposed to the 4" to 6" that your face is near it without doing this) I don't think his head would blow in to a million bits.

One more thing, before ever modifying a firearm why wouldn't you function check it by putting a couple hundred rounds through? If something were to go wrong (he had only fired 19 bullets) then you either get rid of it or don't modify it.

 

 

Again I will say, your face is only a few inches from the receiver in its current form as a pistol so a KABOOM at that distance isn't going to matter. Big boy rules-take the chance or don't.....

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

YARP, I understand the idea of this weapon being good is appealing to you as you can't obtain an SBR in MI. So I'm not trying to piss on your parade or anything. I'm mainly curious as to why the OP who lives in NC would bother this when they can just get an SBR stamp and make a bad-ass "poor man's krink" with this thing.

 

No offense ace but after watching the video your talking about it sounds like a couple things......Did the dustcover get put on correctly? Was it a HOT load? ...

 

Not sure, who knows if it was a hot load or not. The vast majority of ammo we all run through our guns is Bear/Wolf/Tiger/Yugo and all are known to have a hot load here and there. I understand quality control if this were, say, a varminter's AR with all hand loaded match grade rounds carefully picked but the reality is, we as AK shooters, for the most part, don't use "high quality" loads for target practice. It just comes with the territory.

 

The damage is NOT so bad that even if his face was on top of it (as opposed to the 4" to 6" that your face is near it without doing this) I don't think his head would blow in to a million bits.

 

Yeah, but who the hell really wants to take that chance with their face? I mean I can see saying that for something like "whoops - smashed my finger" but when it comes to the possibility of permanent facial disfigurement, yeah that's gonna make a few people think twice

 

Big boy rules-take the chance or don't..

 

Understood. You want to play with this go for it, I ain't going to tell you not to lol. But do note that no iteration of the AK ever fielded by any Soviet army involved any design where the operator's face is on top of the dust cover. Nor any bullpup design. The Draco itself is simply Cugir's AIMR rifle with the stock removed and a different rear trunion due to our crappy import laws.

[Stansplace 414]

YARP, I understand the idea of this weapon being good is appealing to you as you can't obtain an SBR in MI. So I'm not trying to piss on your parade or anything. I'm mainly curious as to why the OP who lives in NC would bother this when they can just get an SBR stamp and make a bad-ass "poor man's krink" with this thing.

 

Thread confusion?

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Thread confusion?

 

What do you mean?

[Boba Debt 350]

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

[22_Shooter 1,560]

[MT Predator 2,294]

So you are wanting to create a heavy in the rear/unbalanced pistol with a shitty bullpup trigger from one that is already shootable? I don't get it.

 

Don't know how much time you've spent shooting rifle caliber pistols but....

With the weight transferred to the back of the gun most of it sitting behind your shooting grip hand the "pistol" is easier to control. You can also finally get some of a cheek weld (like using the AR pistol buffer), you just have to not be a pussy about putting your face over the receiver (last I checked no Draco AKs have blown, again, can't be scared). With a good sling the push technique with no pull (no push, pull....just push) the weapon becomes highly controllable allowing for faster shot to shot time. The trigger pull isn't that bad, it's a minute of man weapon not a fuckin sniper rifle.......

Look at his concept photo and tell me where the fuck are you putting your support hand on this, in your pocket? It's called your support hand for a reason. Even with a 20 rounder, your firing hand strength is going to be used trying to keep the muzzle down unless you sling it and push on it to counter the weight in the ass end. Highly controllable, one handed? I seriously doubt it and would challenge the thing with a bone stock Draco shot for shot, timed of course as I already know what the trigger is like on the bullpup, I own one! Never said it was a Sniper rifle however, minute of man on a cardboard target is waaay different than minute of man who shoots back so the trigger IS pretty important. Threads like this need a disclaimer stating it is in regards to a mall ninja weapon, instead of a serious fighting weapon so the inexperienced are not mislead. A SBR Draco is considered the latter BTW.

[Casp 119]

After seeing this image of the mock-up.............I'm going to put out my $.02 on the subject, and say that's treading pretty close to something that's meant to be shouldered, even if it doesn't actually have a stock on it. In which case, you'd have a hard time convincing anyone (God forbid it ever make it to a court room) that it's still a "pistol".

 

The idea is that it should be legally precedented by the Bushmaster/Gwinn Armpistol. As others have stated it's still wise to get a model-specific letter of approval from the F-troop, but I imagine it would take just as long to get a letter of approval from them as it would take to just get an SBR stamp.

 

[Casp 119]

I found something relevant. Sorry Boba, but it sounds like you're SOL.

 

We sent an inquiry to the BATFE to get their opinion regarding this design. Dated September 23, 2010, we received a written response from the BATFE and they have determined that this unit would fall into the "any other weapon" (AOW) category), but since the unit could be shouldered, the Short Barreled Rifle designation is required.

 

Therefore the unit would be subject to the purchasing individual's background checks and appropriate filings and the $200 license requirement that would have to be in force prior to aquiring and installing the CBRPS stock onto the AK pistol.

 

As such we will put this on the shelf until such time we can determine a sales protocol that would align with those directives.

 

Here is the content of the ending paragraph of the letter from the BATFE:

"We caution that it is unlawful to mount an AK pistol in your CBRPS stock unit unless the appropriate forms were filed with ATF's NFA Branch, the required background checks were passed, and the appropriate $200 tax was paid. When these requirements have been met and the authorization has been received from the NFA Branch, the pistol may then be placed in the CBRPS stock, resulting in the manufacture of an AOW."

 

 

Since we've had significant interest in this unit as an AOW in lieu of an SBR, we sent a second letter presenting another couple of pictures to them, showing the elimination of the front grip and doing a cutaway at the rear in order to expose the rear of the factory receiver in hopes of getting a separate judgment for this unit.

 

We'll keep you posted on the progress.

 

In the meantime, we'll hold off production of any of these until we hear back from them.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Well, there's always a TKB-022PM.

 

 

It never made it past testing in the 1960's. Check out the sweet Bakelite housing

[YARP 300]

So you are wanting to create a heavy in the rear/unbalanced pistol with a shitty bullpup trigger from one that is already shootable? I don't get it.

 

Don't know how much time you've spent shooting rifle caliber pistols but....

With the weight transferred to the back of the gun most of it sitting behind your shooting grip hand the "pistol" is easier to control. You can also finally get some of a cheek weld (like using the AR pistol buffer), you just have to not be a pussy about putting your face over the receiver (last I checked no Draco AKs have blown, again, can't be scared). With a good sling the push technique with no pull (no push, pull....just push) the weapon becomes highly controllable allowing for faster shot to shot time. The trigger pull isn't that bad, it's a minute of man weapon not a fuckin sniper rifle.......

Look at his concept photo and tell me where the fuck are you putting your support hand on this, in your pocket? It's called your support hand for a reason. Even with a 20 rounder, your firing hand strength is going to be used trying to keep the muzzle down unless you sling it and push on it to counter the weight in the ass end. Highly controllable, one handed? I seriously doubt it and would challenge the thing with a bone stock Draco shot for shot, timed of course as I already know what the trigger is like on the bullpup, I own one! Never said it was a Sniper rifle however, minute of man on a cardboard target is waaay different than minute of man who shoots back so the trigger IS pretty important. Threads like this need a disclaimer stating it is in regards to a mall ninja weapon, instead of a serious fighting weapon so the inexperienced are not mislead. A SBR Draco is considered the latter BTW.

 

 

LOL! Ok hot shot! I'm no mall ninja for one, my second job allows me to put my ass on the line on a regular basis and I rather enjoy it..........

1. It's called a muzzle brake

2. It's a 7.62x39, not a .50 cal

3. Your support hand actually goes either to the magazine or placed over your other hand. With a 2 point sling attached ahead of the hand guard it could be used to grip close to the attachment.

4. the trigger pull on your bullpup must really suck dick, mine's no worse then your average shotgun.

5. Minute of man is different on cardboard then a real man? So the weapons MOA randomly calculates when your in a live fire situation against live objects and changes? Or are you talking about combat stress? Explain your self better...

6. Considering I own a Draco, I've got a pretty damn good idea of its rate of fire. Your rate of fire would be better if the grip was forward with a sling for one reason, the closer your hand gets to the muzzle and the more pressure (pushing against the sling) that you put on the grip (and the straighter you can get your arm) the less muzzle rise you'll get. Hence making it "highly controllable" in comparison to your straight out of the box Draco. Try it with a regular AR pistol and Bushmasters arm pistol, and then come talk shit.

7. I'll say it one last time, if you have trouble controlling 7.62x39 in a regular Draco this is probably not for you.

Your right this is no gun for a starting shooter to even touch, they should probably start with a .22lr and work there way up......then again any idiot who pushes a new shooter towards this system is an idiot.

 

Those scared of technology and learning new technique are the ones that will be left in the dust.......Get your mind out of the box MT Predator, it will serve you well. Especially if you carry a gun for a living.....

 

 

Edit to add-range ammo is one thing, carry ammo is separate. I'm not that dedicated to the AK platform and don't shoot that often so I usually spend the extra dime for nicer ammo. I have yet to have a KABOOM....

Edited November 17, 2010 by YARP

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Those scared of technology and learning new technique are the ones that will be left in the dust.......Get your mind out of the box MT Predator, it will serve you well. Especially if you carry a gun for a living.....

 

Dude. Putting a bullpup grip on a Draco is not "technology" it is a half-assed semi-shouldered grey-area barely legal abortion for people who can't/won't get an NFA stamp.

 

You carry a gun for a living? Well I've never been "in the line of fire" but it doesn't take much to know that no country's military or mercenaries currently or ever used AK bullpups, let alone something as half-assed as this.

 

Let's face it, if it weren't for the NFA/GCA, the Draco would come from the factory with a stock on it.

[YARP 300]

Those scared of technology and learning new technique are the ones that will be left in the dust.......Get your mind out of the box MT Predator, it will serve you well. Especially if you carry a gun for a living.....

 

Dude. Putting a bullpup grip on a Draco is not "technology" it is a half-assed semi-shouldered grey-area barely legal abortion for people who can't/won't get an NFA stamp.

 

You carry a gun for a living? Well I've never been "in the line of fire" but it doesn't take much to know that no country's military or mercenaries currently or ever used AK bullpups, let alone something as half-assed as this.

 

Let's face it, if it weren't for the NFA/GCA, the Draco would come from the factory with a stock on it.

 

Hell, I don't disagree with you.....If I could have a stock on my AR pistol I would to, but I can't.

What I'm saying with that sentence is that you should take it to the legal limits in order to enhance or improve, not over....If it doesn't personally work for you, nix it, but don't think it may not work well for someone else.

By the way I was saying IF MT Predator carries a gun for a living, it wouldn't be a bad idea to open up a little bit.

 

It seems like some folks here are always quick to jump on a new idea like it's a bad one, yet they have absolutely no experience with it or so little that they are quick to judge.

MT says he has one bull pup, he's obviously had a not so good time with it, hence he doesn't like them....fair enough

 

I'll tell you exactly where this rant is coming from Classy. As of late, there have been a good amount of threads started in the two other forums I'm a member at that have blatantly said "this is not possible" or "there's no way that will work" or "that's stupid, it serves no purpose" when in Gods honest truth the day, week or month before I was out at the range trying or proving exactly wrong the thing there stamping there foot about. It puts me on edge, I apologize if I was coming across as a complete and total asshole, I wasn't trying to be.

[Boba Debt 350]

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

[Boba Debt 350]

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

[Boba Debt 350]

Based on my history at this forum I tend to go in to a defensive posture whenever I post a thread here.

 

I may have placed tooooo much emphasis on your initial "crap" comment.

 

No worries