The voice of PRACTICALITY!

[imarangemaster 315]

I have had several people contact me talking about Chevyman melting his Tapco Intrafuse awhile back. If I recall that was after around 500 rounds bump-firing and as rapid as he could pull the trigger doing repeated mag dumps. If you are melting polymer hand guards and smoking wood hand guards, you are getting your barrel way to hot. On one occasion, we fired the Pig (M60 Machine Gun) until the barrel glowed red. It actually only took two or three 250 round belts of continuous full auto (no breaks) to start. Of course, the barrel was useless after that.

 

Bump-firing is fun, but a waste of ammunition. It is not tactically sound, either. If you were on one end of a football field bumb firing at a goblin, and he shot two rounds at you, I know who would win, It is called fire discipline. I enjoy my weapons, but for me they are still practical tools. Other use them as toys, and that is fine. Hang all the crap on them you want. Its your toy.

 

To me a weapon is a tool foremost. Fire discipline is essential, even with full auto. Maybe that is because I carried a weapon for a living for more than 25 years. Anyone can send 1,000 rounds down range, hit little, and melt shit. A rifleman conserves ammo and uses it wisely. I am almost 60, but I guarantee when I die at 100, the Tapco Intrafuse on my Saiga will be alive and well, and my fingers will not be burned! YMMV

 

Don't get me wrong, if you want to play, that is fine. I think your melt test is disingenuous and not based on reality. It is also academic and irrelevant for 99.9% of the Saiga shooters. For 10 years, one of my jobs was to evaluate new and different weapons and equipment for the Police Dept. that I was an officer and range officer on. I would frequently send 10,0000 rounds down range on reliability testing. The evaluations must be reasonable and based on real life probability. To fire a Saiga 500 or 1000 rounds to melt a handguard proves nothing! That is like buying a Volkswagen that gets good mileage, and being angry when you try to pull a horse trailer with it. That is not reasonable.

 

Let the flames begin!

Edited December 4, 2010 by imarangemaster

[cobravenom39 17]

Tapco makes good stuff and they have a lifetime warranty. I stripped the screw on a foregrip (my fault) and they sent me a return label (paid for return shipping) and after they received it they sent me a brand new one! All the correspondence was done via email and they responded very quickly. No receipt, proof of purchase or anything. SUCK IT TAPCO HATERS!

[imarangemaster 315]

Funny I should mention being a range officer. I was just going through pictures for my wife and found two scans of old photographs: One is a composite of my wife and kids firing a department MP5 in the police range, circa 1985. That is not just a pose. I insisted each one fire a 30 round magazine , trying 3 shot burst with trigger control. The second is of yours truly, about the same time, when I was younger, I had hair, and I was thinner! Now I am just an old fart!

Edited December 4, 2010 by imarangemaster

[RobRez 1,895]

Nice pics.! You gotta love the Police issue " stash" ya got going on there!

I agree 100% on the Fire discipline!! One shot, one kill! your quarry deserves no less.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Nice pics.! You gotta love the Police issue " stash" ya got going on there!

I agree 100% on the Fire discipline!! One shot, one kill! your quarry deserves no less.

Police issue stash? Shit, that is pure '70s porn star stash right there

 

 

While I sometimes shoot for fun, MD20 mag dumps and bump firing my AR & S7.62x39.

I always train for realistic use of my firearms.

Pistol, I do not shoot for the smallest group, I practice drawing from IWB/OWB, verbal commands and all rounds into center of mass from various stances.

Rifle, got my ass off the bench for the most part. Shooting from all positions, and striving to put all rounds into center of mass whilst firing just as fast as I can gets sights back on target.

Shottie, multiple targets, switching back and forth, 2-3 shots per target.

Mag changes and malfunction drills on all are standard.

 

My favorite range has a decent Hogan's Alley and it gets well used.

Edited December 4, 2010 by ChileRelleno

[ekim 6]

+1000% imarangemaster. What you said applies to several other posters on this forum. Their opinion seems to be the word of God around here. I'll admit I'm new to ak's and Sagia's but I really find it insulting to come on a Sagia forum and bad mouth there products and other manufacture's products on what appears to be little less than personal opinion or a bad experience. For me personally, I like my relatively stock Saiga. If I had wanted an AK,I would have bought one, but I don't care for that look. I do like the look of some AR's, but again, that's not what I bought, so I'm not trying to make my Saiga into one of those either. Rant over, good post imarangemaster.

[jimdigriz 580]

I am almost 60, but I guarantee when I die at 100, the Tapco Intrafuse on my Saiga will be alive and well, and my fingers will not be burned! YMMV

 

Although, if history is any guide, you will have sold off the gun about 39 years before - after having changed the furniture a couple of times.

;-)

[BrutalGardener 205]

I've owned and still own several Tapco products and they are fine for plinking, but I would never take any of them into a combat situation. My first was a Saiga "Galil style" rifle hand guard a few years ago. The retainer would come loose all the time and one day, it practically snapped in half during a normal shooting session. My latest Tapco product was an Intrafuse hand guard, which I bought for my Saiga 308. I bought it because it was cheap, I didn't want the extra weight of a metal rail system and it looks more aesthetically pleasing than the SMG tri-rail to me. It does look nice, but when I held it in my hands before mounting it, I had a distinct feeling that I could crush it, if I just squeezed it hard enough. It's a nice-looking plastic toy, but that's it. It's a good thing that this S308 is not my "go to" gun.

[stnls1911 55]

The only thing I had to do to my SAW grip was dremel the corners that were close to the trigger. It would catch the trigger by a hair. After that, no problems. I really like my collapsible stock and G2 trigger group. I really can't say anything bad about Tapco from my experience.

[t3mac21 1]

[bigsal 757]

Tapco makes an inferior magazine, but its furniture is built well enough for casual use. I actually like the length of their buttstocks more than the typical Warsaw length which is about 1/2" longer. That being said, I am not sure I like the looks of any of their products. This might not be an issue for everyone, but I dont like my AK to look like a bubba'ed Piece of Shit.

[L5K 162]

Tapco makes some good products and they make some products I would never consider buying. Their folding stock for the AK for example looks flat out awful.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

I have had several people contact me talking about Chevyman melting his Tapco Intrafuse awhile back. If I recall that was after around 500 rounds bump-firing and as rapid as he could pull the trigger doing repeated mag dumps. If you are melting polymer hand guards and smoking wood hand guards, you are getting your barrel way to hot. On one occasion, we fired the Pig (M60 Machine Gun) until the barrel glowed red. It actually only took two or three 250 round belts of continuous full auto (no breaks) to start. Of course, the barrel was useless after that.

 

Bump-firing is fun, but a waste of ammunition. It is not tactically sound, either. If you were on one end of a football field bumb firing at a goblin, and he shot two rounds at you, I know who would win, It is called fire discipline. I enjoy my weapons, but for me they are still practical tools. Other use them as toys, and that is fine. Hang all the crap on them you want. Its your toy.

 

To me a weapon is a tool foremost. Fire discipline is essential, even with full auto. Maybe that is because I carried a weapon for a living for more than 25 years. Anyone can send 1,000 rounds down range, hit little, and melt shit. A rifleman conserves ammo and uses it wisely. I am almost 60, but I guarantee when I die at 100, the Tapco Intrafuse on my Saiga will be alive and well, and my fingers will not be burned! YMMV

 

Don't get me wrong, if you want to play, that is fine. I think your melt test is disingenuous and not based on reality. It is also academic and irrelevant for 99.9% of the Saiga shooters. For 10 years, one of my jobs was to evaluate new and different weapons and equipment for the Police Dept. that I was an officer and range officer on. I would frequently send 10,0000 rounds down range on reliability testing. The evaluations must be reasonable and based on real life probability. To fire a Saiga 500 or 1000 rounds to melt a handguard proves nothing! That is like buying a Volkswagen that gets good mileage, and being angry when you try to pull a horse trailer with it. That is not reasonable.

 

Let the flames begin!

 

No flaming at all....

 

But you can't really fault Chevy, or anyone, who isn't satisfied with a product for whatever reason. Different people have different standards, or at least ideas, on what they want/expect from their gear. What's good enough for you and your needs/wants, might not be good enough for someone elses needs/wants.

 

That's my..

 

 

...on it.

[corbin 621]

I'll be the first to admit, I can't bumpfire worth crap. And in videos where I do any rapid fire technique, I often call it "turning money into noise". It serves next to no other purpose, except purhaps testing magazine function, I guess.

 

Even full auto has a rather limited use, and even then, it's generally not a mag dump, but controlled bursts. It IS fun to let 'er rip on the range, just to make noise and feel like rambo or whatever, but it's not tactically sound.

[imarangemaster 315]

I am almost 60, but I guarantee when I die at 100, the Tapco Intrafuse on my Saiga will be alive and well, and my fingers will not be burned! YMMV

 

Although, if history is any guide, you will have sold off the gun about 39 years before - after having changed the furniture a couple of times.

;-)

 

Haha, you are so right!!!!!!!! ROTFLMAO

[imarangemaster 315]

I agree some Tapco stuff is crap. However, the Intafuse appears to be made of the same material as M4 hand guards and seems to be about as thick as it. Would I have it on a war fighting weapon? Probably not. Do I do mag dumps? I usually do one or two mags just to get out my frustration in a range session. I just believe it has no place in a real life situation (especially bump firing) unless rapid fire grazing fire. ave no problem with tacticool stuff. I just don't use it. Simple is good for me. I think a session of Appleseed rifleman training would be best.

[imarangemaster 315]

Nice pics.! You gotta love the Police issue " stash" ya got going on there!

I agree 100% on the Fire discipline!! One shot, one kill! your quarry deserves no less.

Police issue stash? Shit, that is pure '70s porn star stash right there

 

 

 

Haha, my wife says she doesn't need a porn star with me around!!!!!

[Rockina 60]

Good Post.......

 

It's a proven fact that not every product is right for every situation or application, some folks just like to see how far a product can be stressed before it fails while others just like to break shit !

[BrutalGardener 205]

I agree some Tapco stuff is crap. However, the Intafuse appears to be made of the same material as M4 hand guards and seems to be about as thick as it.

 

It doesn't feel nearly as hard as the polymer that K-Var uses to me. I've completely ruined a sturdy plastic mallet by banging it against a K-Var stock once (trying to remove the stock), without leaving a mark on the stock itself!

[chevyman097 2,579]

I will wait till I am sober to give an official response but this is what happens when a tapco handguard gets too hot. (it has not heat shield protections)

 

Edited December 5, 2010 by Chevyman097

[imarangemaster 315]

How many rounds in how much time? I am not saying it is impossible but also wonder why there are thousands of happy users. Anything can be pushed to failure. I ruined an M60 machine gun barrel by pushing it past its capability, that doesn't mean it is crap.

 

I am not trying to start a feud Chevyman. I actually appreciate your effort to find the failure point, an important part of objective evaluation of weapons and their components. I merely was trying to say it is fine for most shooters. A Schwinn bike is fine for most riders. An extreme rider would choose something else. You are an extreme shooter, so you choose your kit accordingly. That doesn't mean someone who is an average shooter has to choose the same as you.

[chevyman097 2,579]

How many rounds in how much time? I am not saying it is impossible but also wonder why there are thousands of happy users. Anything can be pushed to failure. I ruined an M60 machine gun barrel by pushing it past its capability, that doesn't mean it is crap.

 

I am not trying to start a feud Chevyman. I actually appreciate your effort to find the failure point, an important part of objective evaluation of weapons and their components. I merely was trying to say it is fine for most shooters. A Schwinn bike is fine for most riders. An extreme rider would choose something else. You are an extreme shooter, so you choose your kit accordingly. That doesn't mean someone who is an average shooter has to choose the same as you.

 

I completely understand Rangemaster. Was just having a little fun.

 

 

Let me start by saying I understand exactly what you are saying, and you are correct. The tapco is ok for most casual shooters. But I posted that tid bit a while back just to inform the people who might be "not so casual". The tapco just cannot stand up to the abuse other hand guards do.

 

I dont have a round count im sorry, I was not out "trying" to break this thing, so I didnt do any kind of official tests or calculations.

 

Yes we did bump fire it off. Yes we did fire a lot of rounds, prolly around 4-600. Just a guess though. I could only guess on the time we spend shooters as well sorry. Like I said, this was just a couple of guys out having a good time with an AK rifle. We did take breaks to fire off my 45 and makarov as well, If I had to guess Id say it was in the 1-2 hour range. Forgive me for the terrible information. But again this is just for purposes of "what can happen when you arent expecting it".

 

I have since done the same kind of shooting with the surefire handguard that has the built in heat shield and also with the factory hand guard. Neither has had any kind of issues with melting. I can hardly imagine we got it hot enough to smoke wood.

 

 

Im not totally trying to discount Tapco products, i like their stocks, and magazines for what they are. I just think Tapco needs to put a lot more work into their handquards and only want folks to know what can happen.

 

 

I appreciate your post and I understand what you intended. No offense taken bro. And none intended from mine either, hope you dont think that.

 

I also just simply wanted folks to know that yes tapco hand guards are inferior to others, its not hate or bias, just the observed truth(like we do about many other products here). Are they ok for the casual shooter? Yes I agree rangemaster and thankyou for your opinions as well. But for the more aggressive shooter it just cant handle it. Let all be honest, this is for AK rifles.

 

 

So all in all, yes tapco hand guards will work fine for the casual shooter, but in the end other hand guards pass them by a long run on quality and dependability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

just my 2cents

Edited December 5, 2010 by Chevyman097

[imarangemaster 315]

No offense taken, bro, I agree with you. I also agree that the factory hand guard is a better material. Unfortunately, it doesn't cool as well and does not lend itself to the standard AK gas tube and top hand guard like the Tapco.

 

I am intrigued by the SGM tri rail, as it looks like a factory, and with ladder covers on the rails would still not be too bulky like the aluminum ones. I wonder haw it would work with a standard AK gas tube and top hand guard? Did you say it resisted melting as well as the factory? may have to look into that.

[chevyman097 2,579]

I dont think im following what your asking.

[imarangemaster 315]

Sorry, I am on strong drugs (Lor-tabs and Parafon Forte), my bad back is out!

 

1) Did I understand correctly that the SGM tri-rail resists melting significantly better than the Tapco?

 

2) How much material would have to be removes from the top edge to allow the use of the standard AK gas tube and top handguard?

 

I may have to give myself one for Christmas!

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

I've smoked my barrel many a time bump firing multiple mags.

No sign of my SGM tri rail melting and it doesn't have a heat shield.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Sorry, I am on strong drugs (Lor-tabs and Parafon Forte), my bad back is out!

 

1) Did I understand correctly that the SGM tri-rail resists melting significantly better than the Tapco?

 

2) How much material would have to be removes from the top edge to allow the use of the standard AK gas tube and top handguard?

 

I may have to give myself one for Christmas!

 

Im not sure of the gas tube, but ill look into it. Are you wanting to leave the upper HG part and then use the sgm on the bottom?

 

The SGM rail has never showed any signs of the slightest melting.

 

Chille, I believe the sgm does have ea heat shield but it has a small layer of plastic over it so you cnat see it. When I look at the points of contact where you fits on the barrel I can see some metal. I could be wrong thought.

[imarangemaster 315]

Yep, I want to use the standard AK hand guard and the upper hand guard on it. If you are holding the weapon with the off hand by the hand guard in front of the sight block, the upper hand guard works well. No palm sizzle. Probably have to notch the top edge of the SGM.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Ill try and take a picture of the HG I dont have a camera on hand right now so itll be tomorrow prolly. But ill try and get a close up shot so you can see how it fits if youd like.

[imarangemaster 315]

Thanks! Just eyeballing unclear photos, it looks like probably just the upward protruding tabs need trimmed level with the top.

 

Santa, oh Santa, can you here me? Hmmph. Probably not. My wife never reads these forum boards! I may have to get it myself!

 

Thanks