armyjnd 2 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 does any company do only the shortanning of the gas block and all that it intales or do you need to have your whole gun worked on. I already did my conversion and am not ready to do an sbs yet but would like to have the option when I am ready to send in my tax stamp. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chowderhead72 13 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 Good question!! I would love to hear from Tromix, Lone Star and or others. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I think most builders see it as an all or nothing thing. What if they do all of the work up front and someone screws up the back end. It could be said that the front was done wrong and that is where the problem originated. I assume they like giving you back a complete and functioning weapon as a means of proving that the work done is good. Also, why would someone charge you a few hundred to do your shortening work when they can make you buy a whole weapon for $2k - $3K? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I think most builders see it as an all or nothing thing. What if they do all of the work up front and someone screws up the back end. It could be said that the front was done wrong and that is where the problem originated. I assume they like giving you back a complete and functioning weapon as a means of proving that the work done is good. Also, why would someone charge you a few hundred to do your shortening work when they can make you buy a whole weapon for $2k - $3K? +1 it's risky to put your name on stuff & send it back to a guy who's abilities you're unaware of, lest they salt YOUR name when they screw up on their part. The closest thing you'll get to that, is come up with measurements (this may be found in the SBS technical info thread in the NFA subforum) & remove your barrel, have a machine shop turn it down on a lathe to move the gas block rearward, then go from there. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gremlinx 20 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I'm not being a smartass, but what do you mean you have converted it? Convert from what? I too am in the same boat you are in. But I think I am going to do the work myself, make a thread, with detailed pics. Hopefully there will be enough willing to share information to make a DIY shorty! Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darko 42 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I'm not being a smartass, but what do you mean you have converted it? Convert from what? I too am in the same boat you are in. But I think I am going to do the work myself, make a thread, with detailed pics. Hopefully there will be enough willing to share information to make a DIY shorty! Good luck! welcome to the forum... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=39651 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armyjnd 2 Posted January 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 while I do understand the worry of a gun not working after getting it back after the front end work. but if it works before I send it to them I don't see why It would not work when I get it back. If I send it to them I would gladly have them test it before they start the work and if they find the conversion and buffering work unsatisfactory they could send it back I would pay for shipping bolth ways. I don't slam those that do good work and help us with out machinest skills or tools. my only worry is with a full length barrel and a short gas block would over gas the gun but with the gas plug options these days I am not that worried. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I'm not being a smartass, but what do you mean you have converted it? Convert from what? I too am in the same boat you are in. But I think I am going to do the work myself, make a thread, with detailed pics. Hopefully there will be enough willing to share information to make a DIY shorty! Good luck! Convert from "nuetered" sporting configuration. while I do understand the worry of a gun not working after getting it back after the front end work. but if it works before I send it to them I don't see why It would not work when I get it back. If I send it to them I would gladly have them test it before they start the work and if they find the conversion and buffering work unsatisfactory they could send it back I would pay for shipping bolth ways. I don't slam those that do good work and help us with out machinest skills or tools. my only worry is with a full length barrel and a short gas block would over gas the gun but with the gas plug options these days I am not that worried. SBS build is a somewhat challenging animal for the average tinkerer. It would be easy for some to screw it up and be to ignorant to realize they screwed it up themselves. Blame would be laid on the shop that did the shortening work.... especially if it ran before it was chopped. All people are not fair and willing to accept blame for their goof ups. It is very honorable when seen, but not likely in some cases if not most. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armyjnd 2 Posted January 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I think you are missing the mark a little I plan on having them shorting the op rod welding the old holes creating new ones and shorting the gas block, not just shortanning the block so yes I would expect them to that part right and if my weapon operated fine before that and they tested it before they started work why shouldn't I expect it to work afterwords. as a whole it does not affect the funtion of the gun exept what I listed before If the op rod and gas block and ports are set up right. I don't see why it would affect it at all exept having more gas therefore more power to oprod which is able to be dealt with with the new plugs out there. Like I stated they could test it tell they were happy before they started the front half of work if they don't see the back end of work up to snuff I would be happy to have them send it back at my expense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gremlinx 20 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I think you are missing the mark a little I plan on having them shorting the op rod welding the old holes creating new ones and shorting the gas block, not just shortanning the block so yes I would expect them to that part right and if my weapon operated fine before that and they tested it before they started work why shouldn't I expect it to work afterwords. as a whole it does not affect the funtion of the gun exept what I listed before If the op rod and gas block and ports are set up right. I don't see why it would affect it at all exept having more gas therefore more power to oprod which is able to be dealt with with the new plugs out there. Like I stated they could test it tell they were happy before they started the front half of work if they don't see the back end of work up to snuff I would be happy to have them send it back at my expense. I looked around for the same exact thing. I can't blame them for not wanting the liability. On the second hand, it's like a cylinder head shop not wanting to build you some heads, only if they get to build the engine too... Either way, I'm going to take the challenge on myself . There is tons of excellent information on this forum. It's just not all in a step by step thread. As soon as my stamp gets in, I'm jumping in. I have a machine shop to my disposal and a TIG welder, etc for the welding part. I plan on starting a newbe thread on this when I get my stuff ready. Good luck if you do the same! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raleighsaiga 81 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I think you are missing the mark a little I plan on having them shorting the op rod welding the old holes creating new ones and shorting the gas block, not just shortanning the block so yes I would expect them to that part right and if my weapon operated fine before that and they tested it before they started work why shouldn't I expect it to work afterwords. as a whole it does not affect the funtion of the gun exept what I listed before If the op rod and gas block and ports are set up right. I don't see why it would affect it at all exept having more gas therefore more power to oprod which is able to be dealt with with the new plugs out there. Like I stated they could test it tell they were happy before they started the front half of work if they don't see the back end of work up to snuff I would be happy to have them send it back at my expense. And this is why nobody will do it. Too many people think that if their gun worked when they sent it in and it doesn't work when they get it back, then it must be THEIR fault, not mine. But, the Saiga is a SYSTEM of parts. You can't just shorten the gas block and expect not to have to do some fiddling with the rest of the gun to get it tuned properly. A complete conversion is a step-by-step process. Start with step one. Get step one to work before proceeding to step two, etc. If they get to a function check and find a problem, they already know what to fix. For example, maybe your gun is overgassed, which can make up for a rough cycling of the action. But, when they shorten the gas block, they do it right and now the rough cycling doesn't have the overgassing it needs to make it cycle. They are then put into a position of having to troubleshoot someone else's work before they even know if they caused the problem or not, and if they do find a problem, they are in the position of having to blame the customer. That is not something a customer service-oriented company will want to do, regardless of price. Maybe you'll find someone willing to do it, but it is not as simple as you're making it out to be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I think you are missing the mark a little I plan on having them shorting the op rod welding the old holes creating new ones and shorting the gas block, not just shortanning the block so yes I would expect them to that part right and if my weapon operated fine before that and they tested it before they started work why shouldn't I expect it to work afterwords. as a whole it does not affect the funtion of the gun exept what I listed before If the op rod and gas block and ports are set up right. I don't see why it would affect it at all exept having more gas therefore more power to oprod which is able to be dealt with with the new plugs out there. Like I stated they could test it tell they were happy before they started the front half of work if they don't see the back end of work up to snuff I would be happy to have them send it back at my expense. Maybe you are misunderstanding what I am getting at. For all I know, and Gunsmith Shop X, you may be more skilled with your hands that any of us. However, most average shooters are lucky to be able completely disassemble their weapons, much less actually rework any metal on them. Most reputable shops are proud of their craft and reputation. They are just not willing to subject themselves to potential liability or bashing if it can be avoided. There are looooong waiting lists at most reputable shops that specialize in these weapons. I would wager that most are complete conversions or complete SBS projects.... and very little 'piece work'. Until things get slim for them and there is no new work coming their way, you may be hard pressed to find a shop that is willing to do what you want without charging near what a full SBS would cost. I could certainly be wrong though as I have never sent anything out until a few weeks ago. It absolutely does not hurt to call or email and inquire. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 There are shops that will do a short gas system on your gun-as a reliability option for race gun applications. You could have that done and then shorten the barrel on your own. You may have to tinker with gas port size/spring rates after you chop the barrel, but there is an option to shorten the gas system. I wouldn't expect it to be cheap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armyjnd 2 Posted January 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 all very good points. I was just trying to get a business on here to give me a reply but since they a busy men I will just contact them individualy. I am greatful to all of the people and companys that but up free info on this sight. it is a really great place. goober there is a great thread on here devoted to doing this work and it is pretty close to a step by step. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armyjnd 2 Posted January 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 didn't king armory have a pre made one and shorter op rod they were going to sell along with there rifled barrels. What happened to those guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Well, TROMIX is not a "gunsmithing" shop. It's a business that builds Saiga shotguns. Tony Rumore is of course an amazing gunsmith, but it's not economically feasible to do custom work when the demand for fully built guns is so great. Tony has done guns that were previously worked on, but basically the price is the same since he has to go through every aspect of the build anyway. The value of the parts you added is not great in the big picture. My SBS thread notwithstanding, there are a LOT of details that are left out, and making an SBS operate properly is one of the biggest challenges in gunsmithing IMO. There are only a handful of people around that can really do it properly. All that being said, you may be able to find someone to do it and I wish you luck. Indont think you're going to save a ton of money this way, though. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Well, TROMIX is not a "gunsmithing" shop. It's a business that builds Saiga shotguns. Tony Rumore is of course an amazing gunsmith, but it's not economically feasible to do custom work when the demand for fully built guns is so great. Tony has done guns that were previously worked on, but basically the price is the same since he has to go through every aspect of the build anyway. The value of the parts you added is not great in the big picture. My SBS thread notwithstanding, there are a LOT of details that are left out, and making an SBS operate properly is one of the biggest challenges in gunsmithing IMO. There are only a handful of people around that can really do it properly. All that being said, you may be able to find someone to do it and I wish you luck. Indont think you're going to save a ton of money this way, though. Bob has done an excellent job of addressing the question from a builders perspective. Good luck with your project. Mike 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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