U.S. NATIONAL I.D. CARD

[Guest Guest]

U.S. NATIONAL I.D. CARD

The topic title says it all. This should be exciting.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

[chris410 0]

Another bill that will inconvenience honest citizens and probably do little to fight terrorism, all the while bringing us one step closer to total tyranny. sickening.

 

Chaos is the rally cry of the tyrant.

[G O B 3,516]

Your drivers liscense is already a national ID card. And it is almost universally a crime to refuse to provide an officer of the law proof of your identity when asked. You don't have to be doing anything illegal-the police can ask you to identify yourself whenever they want, and if you don't you go to jail.

 

G O B

[acetomatoco 0]

Your drivers liscense is already a national ID card. And it is almost universally a crime to refuse to provide an officer of the law proof of your identity when asked. You don't have to be doing anything illegal-the police can ask you to identify yourself whenever they want, and if you don't you go to jail.

 

G O B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Many people do not have a drivers License or state I.D.

I've never seen any State statute or law saying you must have and present I.D.

If anyone can find it printed somewhere,with State Statute Chapter and Section numbers I'd like to see it.

If someone is suspected of a crime and they do not have I.D. they will be held and fingerprinted as a means of identification.

Edited June 12, 2005 by acetomatoco

[TWGLADF 0]

that is actually a law that was recently passed here in louisiana not too long ago.

 

it was in all the papers.

 

i dunno the exact section numbers and such.

 

the articles stated that any officer of the law can card you at anytime and if you refuse, you are a terrorist and in violation of the law.

 

their excuse for this stupid ass law was for homeland security.

 

a couple guys got into a good old fashion scuffle at a hunting camp and one of them was tried and charged with terrorism.

 

terrorism for giving somebody a black eye?!?!?!?

 

i thought that terrorism had a much broader definition.

 

YOU SPANKED YOUR CHILD?!?!? YOU ARE A TERRORIST DESERVING OF THE DEATH PENALTY!!!!

 

THE ONLY FUCKING HOMELAND SECURITY I NEED IS DOWNSTAIRS IN MY GUNCABINET.

 

I AM HOMELAND SECURITY.

[oak 3]

Leave it to the Neo-Cons to institute a national ID card, those fascists.

[Guest Guest_acetomatoco_*]

Some States do have Stop And Identify laws,where you are supposed to provide identification by giving your name orally, but they do not say you have to produce an I.D. card.

 

My points are:

1)Where are the laws that say everyone must have an I.D. card?

I don't know of any.

Many people in the U.S. do not have any type of I.D. card.

You can't show it if you don't have one.

2) A drivers license is not a national I.D. card.

Many people in the U.S do not have driver licenses.

 

TWGLADF

Thanks for the info, I agree with you that its Bullshit.

How does Louisiana plan on enforcing it?

Many people just don't have any I.D. cards.

 

I havn't seen what the new National I.D. Card law states but it should be interesting.

ACE

[k_dawg 0]

My major complaint are with states that bring legitamacy to criminals, by issueing said criminals with ID cards/Drivers Licenses.

 

In my opinion: that is aiding and abetting a crime.

[KySoldier 2]

Leave it to the Neo-Cons to institute a national ID card, those fascists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sie Papiere! schnell schnell!

[Bvamp 604]

the national ID card should be your bullseye center from your 100 yard target.

[Tokageko 8]

Tisk, Tisk. Does anyone here actually know what Fascism is? I hear the word tossed around a lot, but I wonder if the people who use it understand what they are saying....

 

 

Just a thought.

[oak 3]

Tisk, Tisk.  Does anyone here actually know what Fascism is?  I hear the word tossed around a lot, but I wonder if the people who use it understand what they are saying....

 

 

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I do.

[chris410 0]

Edited June 13, 2005 by chris410

[acetomatoco 0]

Here's part of that law as it pertains to our drivers licenses and what hoops we have to jump through to get it. Impliment date of May 11 2008.

Referred to as Real I.D. Act and Nicknamed National I.D.

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis_bulletin_051305.html

I read another link that mentioned that people won't be able to use a P.O. Box as their address on the new Drivers License/ I.D. Card.

[chris410 0]

http://tm.wc.ask.com/r?t=c&s=k5&id=30787&s...y_Yourself.html

 

It appears that the supreme court has ruled that a police officer can arrest you for withholding ID, under certain circumstances.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Leave it to the Neo-Cons to institute a national ID card, those fascists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Funny, I seem to remember the original idea for the national I.D. was dreamed up by someone who marched under the Democratic party banner.

[SaltPeter 6]

Since stopping someone and demanding to see their I.D. is considered a seizure under the fourth amemdment to the Constitution of the United States, a government agent (or officer, or deputy, etc.) has to have reasonable suspicion that an offense was, is, or is about to be committed. An offense could be as simple as an ordinance violation (like a dog-off-leash) to as serious as a felony.

 

If an officer has no reason to stop you, he may ask to see your I.D. but you may refuse and go about your business. If an officer requests your I.D., my advice would be to ask him if you are being stopped. If he says yes, he has to have a reason for the stop or he is violating the forth amendment. If he says you are being stopped, and you refuse to identify yourself (either by providing I.D. or identifying verbally - you don't have to carry around an I.D. card), you can be arrested.

 

If you are arrested and it is later determined that the officer had no reasonable suspicion, your case will be dismissed and any evidence of a crime that is a result of the stop will be suppressed.

 

For example, let's say I'm walking down the street and a cop sees my St. Louis Cardinals shirt and thinks I'm an asshole because he likes the Cubs. So he marches up to me and demands I.D. He has no other reason other than he doesn't like me. I refuse to identify myself and he arrests me. In my pocket, he finds a bloody knife that I just used to kill someone with. When it is determined that he had no right to stop me, not only will my obstruction charge be dropped, but the knife cannot be considered evidence against me in a murder case.

[chris410 0]

"If you are arrested and it is later determined that the officer had no reasonable suspicion, your case will be dismissed..."

 

 

 

Unfortunately saltpeter, the civilian who is arrested will still have to miss a day of work for court, and lose out on a days pay. I honestly dont know if the officer gets paid to be in court, but regardless it is a losing situation for the civilian, assuming he is wrongfully arrested of course.

 

The "law" only exists in the courtroom, which is an incredible inconvenience and can be an expensive one as well for both parties, and if its all for bogus charges, it becomes a pretty crappy "if" to fall back on.

 

 

Perhaps if laws were written in a way that was interpretable by normal, honest human beings things would be a bit smoother.

Edited June 13, 2005 by chris410

[G O B 3,516]

If you are arreastd-- Once you are arrested. you will have a bitch of a time getting any government clearence , or a job working for the government as either a federal employee or a contractor. Altho it is illegal and irrelevant , one of the first questions is "have you ever been arrested?". And I can assure you that failure to identify your self in MD VA or D.C. Will get you a verry rough ride to a police lock-up. You may even be treated to several rides from one station to another=with your hands securely ty-wrapped behind your back so that as the paddy wagon takes the turns you get beat to hell. Also since you are being transferred, you cannot make a 'phone call untill you are logged in somewhere-if you pissed the cops off enough that can take 3 days.

 

G O B

[oak 3]

Leave it to the Neo-Cons to institute a national ID card, those fascists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Funny, I seem to remember the original idea for the national I.D. was dreamed up by someone who marched under the Democratic party banner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah but it took the Neo-Cons to pull it off. They are all in it together.

[Bvamp 604]

If you are arrested and it is later determined that the officer had no reasonable suspicion, your case will be dismissed and any evidence of a crime that is a result of the stop will be suppressed.

 

 

not true.

[Wolverine 10,360]

Since stopping someone and demanding to see their I.D. is considered a seizure under the fourth amemdment to the Constitution of the United States, a government agent (or officer, or deputy, etc.) has to have reasonable suspicion that an offense was, is, or is about to be committed.  An offense could be as simple as an ordinance violation (like a dog-off-leash) to as serious as a felony.

 

If an officer has no reason to stop you, he may ask to see your I.D. but you may refuse and go about your business.  If an officer requests your I.D., my advice would be to ask him if you are being stopped.  If he says yes, he has to have a reason for the stop or he is violating the forth amendment.  If he says you are being stopped, and you refuse to identify yourself (either by providing I.D. or identifying verbally - you don't have to carry around an I.D. card), you can be arrested.

 

If you are arrested and it is later determined that the officer had no reasonable suspicion, your case will be dismissed and any evidence of a crime that is a result of the stop will be suppressed.

 

For example, let's say I'm walking down the street and a cop sees my St. Louis Cardinals shirt and thinks I'm an asshole because he likes the Cubs.  So he marches up to me and demands I.D.  He has no other reason other than he doesn't like me.  I refuse to identify myself and he arrests me.  In my pocket, he finds a bloody knife that I just used to kill someone with.  When it is determined that he had no right to stop me, not only will my obstruction charge be dropped, but the knife cannot be considered evidence against me in a murder case.

 

Saltpeter,

 

Right, in a perfect world. But the truth is we don't live in a perfect world. You know policemen have a tough job. You are one as I understand it. In the war on crime mistakes are made. Policemen get educated through experience trying to do the right thing. Some even move to rationalizing the end justifys the means. So they learn to lie, to be coy, to push things to the line. To construct the basis for establishing probable cause. Judges do it to by glossing over the obvious in support of the officer and law and order. Rights can be trampled pretty easily. If you don't have the cash you cut your losses by cutting a deal. I'm not saying all cops are bad. I'm saying a game is being played pretty routinely when it comes to creating or establishing probable cause and search incident to arrest. Long story short is if a police officer feels like stopping you he can find a reason that will stand up in front of the local judge. In my lifetime the pendulum for establishing probable cause has swung both ways. Today the reading of rights is discounted much more than it was 20 to 25 years ago. False arrests are not as easily established as they once were. The police have more latitude than some years ago although the matter of minorities being targetted (racial profiling) is far more of an issue today. It boils down to the individual integrity the each officer. There is tremendous pressure and a reality in combating crime that all too often translates into questionable or manufactured probable cause to get the job done. The trouble comes when any given officer crosses the almost imperceptable line and abuses his discretion and opportunity for whatever personal reasons.

 

Wolverine

[Guest guest]

This is probally a steping stone to what will happen later. Eventually, there will be a global I.D. that is required for all transactions. If the general population accepts this as a card, it will be easier for a future global leader to implement an ID that needs to some how be joined with, placed inside/on the human body. At some point it will be required by the global gov. It will be considered a serious crime to not comply. Somebody will probaly say that this is a good way to prevent crime, terrorism, ect... I've been told that a computer system capable of duing 2000 calculations per second on every person on the planet has already been built, that would be nessasary to use something like this. The end result is something that was foretold over 2000 years ago. A lot of people have heard this for so long, that many have written it off as fiction.

 

If this progresses to that level in the next 20 years, I wouldn't be shocked.

 

Now, I suppose that since this is something that is not pleasing to hear, everybody will be lining up to kill the messenger, with the tinfoil hat.

[acetomatoco 0]

Found a more detailed copy of this new law about our drivers license.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109...azmeOG:e238497:

Here are some sections taken from it.

(d) Other Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall adopt the following practices in the issuance of drivers' licenses and identification cards:

 

(1) Employ technology to capture digital images of identity source documents so that the images can be retained in electronic storage in a transferable format.

 

(2) Retain paper copies of source documents for a minimum of 7 years or images of source documents presented for a minimum of 10 years.

 

(3) Subject each person applying for a driver's license or identification card to mandatory facial image capture.

 

(Can't wear veils anymore! Sorry Florida ACE)

 

(5) Confirm with the Social Security Administration a social security account number presented by a person using the full social security account number. In the event that a social security account number is already registered to or associated with another person to which any State has issued a driver's license or identification card, the State shall resolve the discrepancy and take appropriate action.

 

(6) Refuse to issue a driver's license or identification card to a person holding a driver's license issued by another State without confirmation that the person is terminating or has terminated the driver's license.

 

(Can't skirt the law anymore by getting more than 1 drivers license. ACE)

 

(12) Provide electronic access to all other States to information contained in the motor vehicle database of the State.

 

(13) Maintain a State motor vehicle database that contains, at a minimum--

 

(A) all data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards issued by the State; and

 

( motor vehicle drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses

 

(people won't get a fresh start everytime they move to a new state.

We probably all know somebody that had a bad driving record in one state and it was wiped clean when they moved to another state and got a new license.

The insurance companies are going to love this section ACE)

 

Im guessing that everytime your license is checked for anything it will be recorded in the database including air travel.

 

I,m surprised that the media has not been all over this subject or it has and I haven't been watching enough TV.

 

We will just have to wait and see for whats coming.

 

ACE

Edited June 13, 2005 by acetomatoco

[Wolverine 10,360]

This is probally a steping stone to what will happen later. Eventually, there will be a global I.D. that is required for all transactions. If the general population accepts this as a card, it will be easier for a future  global leader to implement an ID that needs to some how be joined with, placed inside/on the human body. At some point it will be required by the global gov. It will be considered a serious crime to not comply. Somebody will probaly say that this is a good way to prevent crime, terrorism, ect...  I've been told that a computer system capable of duing 2000 calculations per second on every person on the planet has already been built, that would be nessasary to use something like this. The end result is something that was foretold over 2000 years ago. A lot of people have heard this for so long, that many have written it off as fiction.

 

If this progresses to that level in the next 20 years, I wouldn't be shocked.

 

Now, I suppose that since this is something that is not pleasing to hear, everybody will be lining up to kill the messenger, with the tinfoil hat.     

 

 

You of course are referring to Bibical prophecy concerning the Mark of the Beast or 666 foretold in the Book of Revelation by the Apostle John while in exile in Padnos.. One World government under the absolute rule of Satan's own having come into power by a deeply troubled but welcoming global community. The prophecy holds that no one will be able to buy or sell without the mark. Some interpret the mark to be a literal mark on the forehead or hand. Others subscribe to the thought that the mark is simply symbolic for those that subscribe to the numeric identification system and are therefore at enmity with Christ and God. All those duped by taking the mark and following the "Beast" stand condemned with Satan and his angels according to Revelation.

[SaltPeter 6]

Okay, you guys know all the answers and I don't know what I'm talking about. But if I ever did some of the things you guys are talking about I'd be afraid of a) getting suspended or fired and/or b ) getting sued individually by the person who's civil rights were violated.

Edited June 13, 2005 by SaltPeter

[k_dawg 0]

really.. i know of no one I want to know who has no drivers license, or what not.

 

I already have four federal froms of ID: passport, DOD, Security Clearance and SSN.

 

I see no loss of real-world-rights by making sure millions of illegal criminals are not allowed full access to this nation.

[Wolverine 10,360]

Okay, you guys know all the answers and I don't know what I'm talking about.  But if I ever did some of the things you guys are talking about I'd be afraid of a) getting suspended or fired and/or getting sued individually by the person who's civil rights were violated.

 

 

Saltpeter,

 

I (we) don't know it all. Only policemen understand their world. It is high stress and different from the average citizen. Conversely, a policeman cannot fully understand the citizens point of view. It is two sides of the same coin. We live in an imperfect world. Obviously you are a principled man but not all others are.

 

Do individual policemen carry personal liabilty insurance these days like many other professions given our litigious culture and your stated concern about spurious civil rights violations charges?

 

Wolverine

[Wolverine 10,360]

really.. i know of no one I want to know who has no drivers license, or what not.

 

I already have four federal froms of ID: passport, DOD, Security Clearance and SSN.

 

I see no loss of real-world-rights by making sure millions of illegal criminals are not allowed full access to this nation.

 

k dawg,

 

I think there are two groups that have concerns. Those that see an intrusive government centralizing information and control over the citizenry and those who see earmarks of Bibical prophecy as outlined above. If we guarded our countries boarder and actually deported illegals when reported by employers there would be no need for this law. The Social Security Administration will only tell an employer if a name and number match when the employer inquires. When they don't match and the employer notifies the INS as required absolutely nothing is done and the illegal moves on to his or her next job until caught or a blind eye is turned. Who can name an employer that has been fined for harboring illegal Mexican or Arabs when found out. On the books the employer has huge finacial liability for every day an illegal is knowingly allowed to work. However, it is a great rarity when the law is enforced. The conclusion to be reached is the government does not care they are here. Yet, now we are going to identify every last soul in the U.S. to locate these illegals. No way. We are really on the hunt for terrorists. The new identifciation method will be used for racial profiling of those of Arab descent and will be declared as illegal when it works it's way to the Supreme Court. We better be ready to treat all illegals alike and not pick and choose. So far the U.S. is enjoying the cheap Mexican labor on both sides of the border. NAFTA......ha!!!!

 

Wolverine

[k_dawg 0]

you forgot the third group.. that which represents 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999%

 

criminals.