Deadeye 325 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 Last time out dumping the drum had several times when the hammer did not reset or followed the carrier home. Is that possible? Can someone explain this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 can you pull the trigger too fast No Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnmcb 0 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 did you re-profile your hammer? if so you may have take to much off Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) A gun that the hammer "follows" in can cause a slam-fire (not so much with an AK type because of the fin on the back of the bolt-carrier prevents it). But, if the hammer isn't locking back securely (which it does not sound like it is, imho) it can also drop the hammer from the 'impact' of the bolt slamming forward causing a double (or more) fire. My advice would be to get the gun looked at asap. Edited March 29, 2011 by Class-2 Matt 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) Your disconnector probably needs some attention. Take the dust cover off and work the action, checking to see if the disconnector ever properly holds down the hammer. If it does, slowly let off the trigger and make sure the trigger hook grabs the hammer and that it doesn't fire. If it does fire, you can file the bottom of the front of the disconnector, so it can lean forward more, which will narrow the distance between the disconnector and the trigger hook. I had this issue with my PSL when I was trying to give it a hair trigger and drop all the tolerances down to about nothing. I just kept working on the disconnector until I got it reasonably safe while still being very very close to the edge. If you've filed your hammer down too far there's a chance you can still salvage it, you can file the disconnector engagement point until it can grab the hammer again, but once again, you'll have to be the judge here and have a near flawless understanding of the trigger group to do this. Edited March 29, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 can you pull the trigger too fast No You can pull the trigger too fast... There's no safety sear/auto sear to prevent it. If his gun was having some trouble pushing rounds into the chamber and slow feeding, it would be pretty easy to pull it too fast. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) You can pull the trigger too fast... There's no safety sear/auto sear to prevent it. You are right about the lack of safety-sear...I just can't imaging anyone being able to pull off rounds as fast as a real full-auto. So fast they are over-riding the mechanics. I guess some can do it, I can't even come close. I can pull my finger like maybe 4 times a second, LOL. If his gun was having some trouble pushing rounds into the chamber and slow feeding, it would be pretty easy to pull it too fast. That makes sense. If the action was so slow the trigger would get ahead of the action, the gun would be 'yawning' going into battery. Edited March 30, 2011 by Class-2 Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 According to the Ladies, YES, you CAN "pull the trigger" too soon!! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dowork1021 64 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 i heard that if you have the reduced power recoil spring it will slow the rate of fire down and the bolt wont slap back as quickly as the factory. I think PFI DUDE said it on a video on youtube. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Assuming a cyclic rate of 500rpm is the physical limit for reliability (legal full auto s12's operate about this fast), you would have to pull the trigger about 8 times per second to shoot an s12 that fast. I would really like to see someone pull the trigger faster then 8 times per second in order to beat the hammer being reset to cause a malfunction. You can pull the trigger too fast... There's no safety sear/auto sear to prevent it. That is not the function of a safety/auto/auto safety sear. An auto sears are in full-auto trigger groups and works as such: Trigger is pulled and held. Gun fires and bold carrier comes back, pushing down the hammer. Disconnector catches hammer. Bolt carrier returns to battery and trips auto sear. Auto sear trips disconnector, releasing the hammer. Process is repeated until trigger is released. Perhaps you where thinking of a rate reducer? There is not a semi-auto on this planet that I know of that would benefit in anyway from having a mechanical rate reducer as part of the action though...if you want to reduce the rate of fire in a semi-auto just slow down your booger hook. To the OP, I would think that you are not releasing the trigger all the way or there is an issue with your disconnector before I would think that you are Superman and can pull and release the trigger at the speed of sound. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JAldrich2008 28 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I had this problem before I rounded my extractor slot. It was snagging the shells and slowing the bolt enough that sometimes my hammer would strike the carrier before everything was closed up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Assuming a cyclic rate of 500rpm is the physical limit for reliability (legal full auto s12's operate about this fast), you would have to pull the trigger about 8 times per second to shoot an s12 that fast. I would really like to see someone pull the trigger faster then 8 times per second in order to beat the hammer being reset to cause a malfunction. You can pull the trigger too fast... There's no safety sear/auto sear to prevent it. That is not the function of a safety/auto/auto safety sear. An auto sears are in full-auto trigger groups and works as such: Trigger is pulled and held. Gun fires and bold carrier comes back, pushing down the hammer. Disconnector catches hammer. Bolt carrier returns to battery and trips auto sear. Auto sear trips disconnector, releasing the hammer. Process is repeated until trigger is released. Perhaps you where thinking of a rate reducer? There is not a semi-auto on this planet that I know of that would benefit in anyway from having a mechanical rate reducer as part of the action though...if you want to reduce the rate of fire in a semi-auto just slow down your booger hook. To the OP, I would think that you are not releasing the trigger all the way or there is an issue with your disconnector before I would think that you are Superman and can pull and release the trigger at the speed of sound. Uh, not how I've seen it. The disconnector is held back in full auto, and the auto sear works as a disconnector only letting them hammer drop when the bolt is fully forward. Yea, you're right on most guns though. How do you think the safety lever selects fire modes? Notches in the back of the disconnector. Edited March 30, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 you would have to pull the trigger about 8 times per second to shoot an s12 that fast. Actually, if your calculations are correct, you would only have to pull the trigger within 1/8 of a second after any other trigger pull. Even less if your carrier slows down for any reason. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Assuming a cyclic rate of 500rpm is the physical limit for reliability (legal full auto s12's operate about this fast), you would have to pull the trigger about 8 times per second to shoot an s12 that fast. I would really like to see someone pull the trigger faster then 8 times per second in order to beat the hammer being reset to cause a malfunction. You can pull the trigger too fast... There's no safety sear/auto sear to prevent it. That is not the function of a safety/auto/auto safety sear. An auto sears are in full-auto trigger groups and works as such: Trigger is pulled and held. Gun fires and bold carrier comes back, pushing down the hammer. Disconnector catches hammer. Bolt carrier returns to battery and trips auto sear. Auto sear trips disconnector, releasing the hammer. Process is repeated until trigger is released. Perhaps you where thinking of a rate reducer? There is not a semi-auto on this planet that I know of that would benefit in anyway from having a mechanical rate reducer as part of the action though...if you want to reduce the rate of fire in a semi-auto just slow down your booger hook. To the OP, I would think that you are not releasing the trigger all the way or there is an issue with your disconnector before I would think that you are Superman and can pull and release the trigger at the speed of sound. Uh, not how I've seen it. The disconnector is held back in full auto, and the auto sear works as a disconnector only letting them hammer drop when the bolt is fully forward. Yea, you're right on most guns though. How do you think the safety lever selects fire modes? Notches in the back of the disconnector. If we are talking about AK trigger groups still.... The pic on the left is a full-auto AK trigger group, notice the disconnector has a "tail" protruding from the back of it. This tail is the caming surface for the auto sear to push down when the bolt carrier returns to battery. The pic on the left is a semi-auto AK trigger group, the disconnector does not have the "tail" like the full-auto disconnector does. How do I think the safety lever selects fire modes? I think it selects fire modes the way it actually does, the selector lever cams/rotates the auto sear into position when the lever is moved from safe/semi to full auto and then pulls the auto sear back down when the lever is moved from full-auto to safe/semi. To what notches on the back of the disconnector are you referring to? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 you would have to pull the trigger about 8 times per second to shoot an s12 that fast. Actually, if your calculations are correct, you would only have to pull the trigger within 1/8 of a second after any other trigger pull. Even less if your carrier slows down for any reason. Cyclic rate in seconds: 8 cycles (pull and reset) of the trigger per second = 1 cycle every 1/8th of a second. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yeah, my point was that to out cycle the action you only have to do that once, not sustain full auto speeds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
setlab 11 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Assuming a cyclic rate of 500rpm is the physical limit for reliability (legal full auto s12's operate about this fast), you would have to pull the trigger about 8 times per second to shoot an s12 that fast. I would really like to see someone pull the trigger faster then 8 times per second in order to beat the hammer being reset to cause a malfunction. You can pull the trigger too fast... There's no safety sear/auto sear to prevent it. That is not the function of a safety/auto/auto safety sear. An auto sears are in full-auto trigger groups and works as such: Trigger is pulled and held. Gun fires and bold carrier comes back, pushing down the hammer. Disconnector catches hammer. Bolt carrier returns to battery and trips auto sear. Auto sear trips disconnector, releasing the hammer. Process is repeated until trigger is released. Perhaps you where thinking of a rate reducer? There is not a semi-auto on this planet that I know of that would benefit in anyway from having a mechanical rate reducer as part of the action though...if you want to reduce the rate of fire in a semi-auto just slow down your booger hook. To the OP, I would think that you are not releasing the trigger all the way or there is an issue with your disconnector before I would think that you are Superman and can pull and release the trigger at the speed of sound. Uh, not how I've seen it. The disconnector is held back in full auto, and the auto sear works as a disconnector only letting them hammer drop when the bolt is fully forward. Yea, you're right on most guns though. How do you think the safety lever selects fire modes? Notches in the back of the disconnector. If we are talking about AK trigger groups still.... The pic on the left is a full-auto AK trigger group, notice the disconnector has a "tail" protruding from the back of it. This tail is the caming surface for the auto sear to push down when the bolt carrier returns to battery. The pic on the left is a semi-auto AK trigger group, the disconnector does not have the "tail" like the full-auto disconnector does. How do I think the safety lever selects fire modes? I think it selects fire modes the way it actually does, the selector lever cams/rotates the auto sear into position when the lever is moved from safe/semi to full auto and then pulls the auto sear back down when the lever is moved from full-auto to safe/semi. To what notches on the back of the disconnector are you referring to? Those pics made me remember a post my Tromix where he found that some Tapco disconnectors were drilled too deep where the spring fits in. Op might have one of those, that sounds like something that would happen with a weak disconnector. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yeah, my point was that to out cycle the action you only have to do that once, not sustain full auto speeds. I see... I would think that, with a standard AK trigger group, in order to pull the trigger inside 1/8th of a second after a previous trigger pull the trigger pullee would have to not allow the trigger to reset all the way (short-stroke the return) and pull the trigger again which would appear to cause a malf because the disconnector wouldn't have a chance to release the hammer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Those pics made me remember a post my Tromix where he found that some Tapco disconnectors were drilled too deep where the spring fits in. Op might have one of those, that sounds like something that would happen with a weak disconnector. I agree with this, I just remembered I had to wait like a month for my G2 trigger groups (for my s12 I think) to come in the mail will they where on backorder when Tapco was fixing the issue... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 If your disconnector is set correctly you cannot short stroke or bypass it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deadeye 325 Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 all great info guys. I have learned a lot reading all of your posts. I am going to smooth out thr shell extractor ramp area and check disconector when I looked at the disconector the other night I seemed to cach every time like it is suposed to but it looked kind of rough and ther is a little dent/nick in it on the front Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 all great info guys. I have learned a lot reading all of your posts. I am going to smooth out thr shell extractor ramp area and check disconector when I looked at the disconector the other night I seemed to cach every time like it is suposed to but it looked kind of rough and ther is a little dent/nick in it on the front Sounds a lot like what Pauly said in your other thread: The only time I've run into the issue you're having was because I had shot several thousand rounds of high brass through My converted gun & the disconnecter wore to an edge then a shard broke off & hung down preventing the disconnecter from grabbing the hammer's sear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 If your disconnector is set correctly you cannot short stroke or bypass it. If the disconnector overlaps the sear on the hammer by about an 1/8th of an inch (like on an AK) and you only let the trigger go half-way to reset (1/16th of an inch shy of the disconnector letting go) before you pull it again then yes you have just short-stroked the trigger reset... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 deadeye, glade you found some possible solutions to your problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Assuming a cyclic rate of 500rpm is the physical limit for reliability (legal full auto s12's operate about this fast), you would have to pull the trigger about 8 times per second to shoot an s12 that fast. I would really like to see someone pull the trigger faster then 8 times per second in order to beat the hammer being reset to cause a malfunction. You can pull the trigger too fast... There's no safety sear/auto sear to prevent it. That is not the function of a safety/auto/auto safety sear. An auto sears are in full-auto trigger groups and works as such: Trigger is pulled and held. Gun fires and bold carrier comes back, pushing down the hammer. Disconnector catches hammer. Bolt carrier returns to battery and trips auto sear. Auto sear trips disconnector, releasing the hammer. Process is repeated until trigger is released. Perhaps you where thinking of a rate reducer? There is not a semi-auto on this planet that I know of that would benefit in anyway from having a mechanical rate reducer as part of the action though...if you want to reduce the rate of fire in a semi-auto just slow down your booger hook. To the OP, I would think that you are not releasing the trigger all the way or there is an issue with your disconnector before I would think that you are Superman and can pull and release the trigger at the speed of sound. Uh, not how I've seen it. The disconnector is held back in full auto, and the auto sear works as a disconnector only letting them hammer drop when the bolt is fully forward. Yea, you're right on most guns though. How do you think the safety lever selects fire modes? Notches in the back of the disconnector. If we are talking about AK trigger groups still.... The pic on the left is a full-auto AK trigger group, notice the disconnector has a "tail" protruding from the back of it. This tail is the caming surface for the auto sear to push down when the bolt carrier returns to battery. The pic on the left is a semi-auto AK trigger group, the disconnector does not have the "tail" like the full-auto disconnector does. How do I think the safety lever selects fire modes? I think it selects fire modes the way it actually does, the selector lever cams/rotates the auto sear into position when the lever is moved from safe/semi to full auto and then pulls the auto sear back down when the lever is moved from full-auto to safe/semi. To what notches on the back of the disconnector are you referring to? NO to all. In full auto, the auto sear holds the hammer back and the disconnector is not part of the cycle. The selector (safety) holds the tail of the disconnector down to keep it from engaging the hammer at all. The hammer on a full auto AK has a notch in the front that is caught by the auto sear. As the bolt chambers a round and returns to battery, it releases the hammer (by engaging the auto sear hook) a split second before battery. This prevents the hammer from following the bolt. The disconnector is out of the equation. This is why there are no tails on compliant disconnectors and notches in safeties as well as the bolt carrier having the side milled. The shepherds crook that holds the (3 pins) is the spring for the auto sear. Hope this helps for the discussion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Rate reducers are actually an anti bounce mechanism that is 2 parts with its own spring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) NO to all. In full auto, the auto sear holds the hammer back and the disconnector is not part of the cycle. The selector (safety) holds the tail of the disconnector down to keep it from engaging the hammer at all. The hammer on a full auto AK has a notch in the front that is caught by the auto sear. As the bolt chambers a round and returns to battery, it releases the hammer (by engaging the auto sear hook) a split second before battery. This prevents the hammer from following the bolt. The disconnector is out of the equation. This is why there are no tails on compliant disconnectors and notches in safeties as well as the bolt carrier having the side milled. The shepherds crook that holds the (3 pins) is the spring for the auto sear. Hope this helps for the discussion. Thank you for reinforcing my information. The compliant disconnectors also allow the safety lever to rotate up too far, and not stop in the saiga 12. I've been wondering where I could get a trigger group or disconnector that would stop the safety lever like the original group. I tried grinding and modifying the original disconnector to work with the G2, but it didn't turn out too well. Edited March 31, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 I stand corrected on the operation of a full auto AK trigger group, however, the auto sear still doesn't prevent the trigger from being pulled to fast in semi-auto mode. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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