import stamp removal

[P lang 51]

i recently purchased my first saiga 12 , i thought i could live with that ugly black eye where they coverd up the raa stamp , but after doing my converstion i decided it had to go ! a little sanding , alittle putty and paint and you cant even tell it was ever there , while i was at it , i decieded the las vegas something or other stamp also needed to go . i later read a post that said this was illeagal in i think he said wasington , is this true for the majority of states ? and if it is , is this somthing my local game warden would even be aware of , i have serious doubts thats hes ever even seen a s12 before , but no doubt its profile will certainly peak his intrest ! if i needed to i could re expose it with a few quick scrapes of my pocket knife, but i really like it with just its original stamps .

[timy 1,185]

I really don't know, but why would it matter? I think it's K-Var that does this, right?

[WhiskeyMinion 300]

I could be spreading bad info but I believe you can remove importing marks.

 

Don't touch the serial # though

[White Avatar 0]

Good question, I have the same problem and was planning on removing the rediculous Las Vegas junk from the shotgun. Anyone have an idea?

[rob-cubed 74]

The old importer's marks that have been obliterated are fine to smooth over. However, the ATF does prefer you to retain the (new and actual) importers marks:

 

Title 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Section 923(i) and Title 27 Code of

Federal Regulations (CFR), section 178.92 specify identification

markings that licensed importers and manufacturers are required to

place on firearms imported or manufactured. Section 922(k) makes

it unlawful for any person to possess or receive any firearm which

has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,

obliterated, or altered, and has, at any time, been shipped or

transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

 

Title 26 U.S.C., Chapter 53, section 5842(a) and 27 CFR, section

179.102 specify identification markings that the importer,

manufacturer or maker are required to place on NFA firearms.

Section 5861(g) makes it unlawful for any persons to obliterate,

remove, change or alter the serial number or other identification

of a firearm required by this Chapter. Existing Federal law and

regulations do not prohibit the removal of identification markings

other than the serial number and markings required by section

5842(a).

 

Like parts counts for 922r, I would assume very few individuals have ever got into trouble for obliterating importer marks. But it's a Federal requirement. Because of the switch in importers, Arsenal/K-VAR was allowed to modify their Saigas to reflect reality after whatever happened with RAA went sour.

Edited April 13, 2011 by rob-cubed

[gremlinx 20]

So riddle me this, why is RAA's named horribly scratched out, and KVAR's stamped? Mistake at the factory? KVAR bought them from rAA? What's the story??

[africamagical 5]

Any ffl I asked in washington has responded that as long as the serial # is left alone nothing else matters

[YOT 3,743]

I wondered about that when I was doing my slant cut receiver mod, but went ahead and did it anyway. I filled, sanded and painted it, but the stamp could be uncovered (what's left of it) if I needed to.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Hopefully some of the class 02 can help us with the legalities on this. I sure have seen a lot of them cut out for folders.

[P lang 51]

The old importer's marks that have been obliterated are fine to smooth over. However, the ATF does prefer you to retain the (new and actual) importers marks:

 

Title 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Section 923(i) and Title 27 Code of

Federal Regulations (CFR), section 178.92 specify identification

markings that licensed importers and manufacturers are required to

place on firearms imported or manufactured. Section 922(k) makes

it unlawful for any person to possess or receive any firearm which

has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,

obliterated, or altered, and has, at any time, been shipped or

transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

 

Title 26 U.S.C., Chapter 53, section 5842(a) and 27 CFR, section

179.102 specify identification markings that the importer,

manufacturer or maker are required to place on NFA firearms.

Section 5861(g) makes it unlawful for any persons to obliterate,

remove, change or alter the serial number or other identification

of a firearm required by this Chapter. Existing Federal law and

regulations do not prohibit the removal of identification markings

other than the serial number and markings required by section

5842(a).

 

Like parts counts for 922r, I would assume very few individuals have ever got into trouble for obliterating importer marks. But it's a Federal requirement. Because of the switch in importers, Arsenal/K-VAR was allowed to modify their Saigas to reflect reality after whatever happened with RAA went sour.

so the way im reading it , the top paragraph basicly says dont remove the serial numbers and applys more to the importers and distributers , like mattres tags , top half of second paragraph outlines guide lines for nfa weapons, am i thinking right that nfa only applys to sbr,s silencers and full autos and such ? so on my non nfa registered s12 i can remove anything i want except for the serial number.

[rob-cubed 74]

The way I read it the second paragraph says: "unlawful for any persons to obliterate or remove" the "serial number or other identification of a firearm" that the importer is required to add by law. This would include the importer's name.

 

I have no idea why RAA was obliterated on some of the newer Saigas and other importer marks were added, but a deal fell through somewhere and other companies stepped in as importers. I don't understand enough of the 06 requirements nor have any insider info on why the switch was made. I'd like to hear from someone who knows what went down.

 

The above quotes were taken from an ATF letter, which is not the same as an officially published ruling. I think the ATF only cares about the importer because it's one more way they can track the background of a firearm. My FFL always logs the manufacturer/importer, model number, and serial in his bound book. YMMV. If you never sell the firearm out of state this is one reg that may not even apply.

[P lang 51]

that second paragraphs kinda contradicts itself . 5842a is refering to nfa weapons,?

Edited April 14, 2011 by J lang

[csmw 98]

We have always been of the understanding that importer marks can be removed by an individual/owner.

 

I am not an attorney, so don't take my word as Gospel.

[beefcakeb99 572]

We have always been of the understanding that importer marks can be removed by an individual/owner.

 

I am not an attorney, so don't take my word as Gospel.

But do you have an attorney, one in which we can take his or her word as gospel?

[rob-cubed 74]

We have always been of the understanding that importer marks can be removed by an individual/owner.

 

I am not an attorney, so don't take my word as Gospel.

 

You word still has more relevancy than my Google-foo

 

The various ATF regs are so thick that even they don't know which end is up half the time.

[jamen 8]

There is no federal legal impediment to removing the importer markings on a regular (title 1) type firearm, such as a Saiga 12. You just cannot remove the serial number. Keep in mind some states have broader laws against removing manufacturer or other identification markings on anything, as a tool to fight defaced stolen property. Colorado does, for example. It isn't limited to firearms, or even mention firearms specifically, it applies to identification markings on any item of property.

 

There is a prohibition on removing manufacturer or importer information, as well as serial numbers for firearms regulated by the NFA (machine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers, AOW's and so called destructive devices). This would not apply to a Saiga-12, unless it is also an NFA firearm, such as one with a shortened barrel below 18".

[sunnybean 939]

There is no federal legal impediment to removing the importer markings on a regular (title 1) type firearm, such as a Saiga 12. You just cannot remove the serial number. Keep in mind some states have broader laws against removing manufacturer or other identification markings on anything, as a tool to fight defaced stolen property. Colorado does, for example. It isn't limited to firearms, or even mention firearms specifically, it applies to identification markings on any item of property.

 

There is a prohibition on removing manufacturer or importer information, as well as serial numbers for firearms regulated by the NFA (machine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers, AOW's and so called destructive devices). This would not apply to a Saiga-12, unless it is also an NFA firearm, such as one with a shortened barrel below 18".

 

So what if the gun is in title i configuration and I remove the markings. Then, I decide to SBS it. Does it have to be remarked?

[jamen 8]

There is no federal legal impediment to removing the importer markings on a regular (title 1) type firearm, such as a Saiga 12. You just cannot remove the serial number. Keep in mind some states have broader laws against removing manufacturer or other identification markings on anything, as a tool to fight defaced stolen property. Colorado does, for example. It isn't limited to firearms, or even mention firearms specifically, it applies to identification markings on any item of property.

 

There is a prohibition on removing manufacturer or importer information, as well as serial numbers for firearms regulated by the NFA (machine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers, AOW's and so called destructive devices). This would not apply to a Saiga-12, unless it is also an NFA firearm, such as one with a shortened barrel below 18".

 

So what if the gun is in title i configuration and I remove the markings. Then, I decide to SBS it. Does it have to be remarked?

No. Not necessary.

[us_dragunov 11]

So riddle me this, why is RAA's named horribly scratched out, and KVAR's stamped? Mistake at the factory? KVAR bought them from rAA? What's the story??

 

 

Because RAA ordered a shit load of Saiga-12s back when the Obama scare had everyone buying them. Then the market slowed down and they couldn't accept delivery of them all, so there is a butt load of Saigas in Russia that were pre-stamped with the RAA import info, and now Izhmash/Legion is remarking them and selling them to other importers. In fact even in a Russian gun shop there was a Saiga with a side-folder where the side-folding mech button on the right side was cut in and you could clearly see where it said RAA before...they didn't even mark them out on that one like they do on the re-marked imported ones.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

So what if the gun is in title i configuration and I remove the markings. Then, I decide to SBS it. Does it have to be remarked?

The manufacturer of a NFA weapon is required to place their name and city on the weapon. If you form 1 it, the manufacture is you. if you buy it via a form 4 it will come marked by whoever made it. You also have to have a serial number, but you can just use the OEM serial number if you create it via form 1. You don't have to restore the OEM manufacturing marking.

[sunnybean 939]

So what if the gun is in title i configuration and I remove the markings. Then, I decide to SBS it. Does it have to be remarked?

The manufacturer of a NFA weapon is required to place their name and city on the weapon. If you form 1 it, the manufacture is you. if you buy it via a form 4 it will come marked by whoever made it. You also have to have a serial number, but you can just use the OEM serial number if you create it via form 1. You don't have to restore the OEM manufacturing marking.

 

We were talking about importers markings, not the maker's mark. I guess I should have specified that. Good catch though.

[incognito485 26]

You can take off whatever you want except for the serial number. It then becomes an offense if you do that. It is in Texas anyway.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

We were talking about importers markings, not the maker's mark. I guess I should have specified that. Good catch though.

IIRC, the ATF considers the importer to be the OEM from a legal standpoint. They have judistiction over Arsenal Inc or RAA, they have no jurisdiction over Izhmash. So if they run a trace it goes to RAA, not Izhmash. Which is why they are not fond of people removing the importer marks. I have no idea if it's illegal, but it does make it harder to trace the gun.

[sunnybean 939]

We were talking about importers markings, not the maker's mark. I guess I should have specified that. Good catch though.

IIRC, the ATF considers the importer to be the OEM from a legal standpoint. They have judistiction over Arsenal Inc or RAA, they have no jurisdiction over Izhmash. So if they run a trace it goes to RAA, not Izhmash. Which is why they are not fond of people removing the importer marks. I have no idea if it's illegal, but it does make it harder to trace the gun.

 

No. The ATF wants you to list the Original Manufacturer's information, not the Importer's.

[P lang 51]

thanks for all the info guys sounds like im good !!