YOT 3,743 Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 I have no AK experience to speak of, but I'm considering acquiring a Saiga .223 OR an AR-15. I understand the mechanics of both, but I'm concerned with the accuracy of the Saiga. Will it be as good as I would expect with an AR? A bit of background.... I'm an LEO and qualify yearly with a Colt AR-15 and I've been top shooter among 500+/- other officers about 5 times out of the last 20 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) I have no AK experience to speak of, but I'm considering acquiring a Saiga .223 OR an AR-15. I understand the mechanics of both, but I'm concerned with the accuracy of the Saiga. Will it be as good as I would expect with an AR? Not as good as a quality AR most likely, but it should be a pretty accurate gun, given a good trigger, good ammo, decent optics, and a capable shooter. Mine is probably my most accurate AK pattern rifle, and I think with a magnified optic and quality ammo it could really kick some tail. I love the AK, but it sounds like you're very experienced with the AR. I wonder if the added reliability and ruggedness will be worth it to you, since you've developed a lot of muscle memory on the AR. (And I believe there's a lot to be said for muscle memory if you ever have to fight with your rifle). Just curious, why are you considering a Saiga? Edited April 25, 2011 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t3mac21 1 Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 I have a colt AR15 and an AK in 7.62x39 The saiga will have better accuracy than you would think, and perfectly acceptable accurracy for it's intended purpose but it is not as accurate as the AR15. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 I have a colt AR15 and an AK in 7.62x39 The saiga will have better accuracy than you would think, and perfectly acceptable accurracy for it's intended purpose but it is not as accurate as the AR15. My intent is to be able to hit the X-ring of a B27 silhouette target at 100 yards with iron sights, 5 out of 5 shots. I do that with the AR when qualifying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t3mac21 1 Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 Should be able to keep them in the 9 ring Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 The 10 ring might be acceptable. The 9, not so much. Hell, with the right .22LR ammo I can keep them in the 9 ring with a mossy 702 plinkster! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t3mac21 1 Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 Sights aren't the greatest in the world ya know, especially coming from AR15 sights. Small apeture ring ftw. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 I have no AK experience to speak of, but I'm considering acquiring a Saiga .223 OR an AR-15. I understand the mechanics of both, but I'm concerned with the accuracy of the Saiga. Will it be as good as I would expect with an AR? Not as good as a quality AR most likely, but it should be a pretty accurate gun, given a good trigger, good ammo, decent optics, and a capable shooter. Mine is probably my most accurate AK pattern rifle, and I think with a magnified optic and quality ammo it could really kick some tail. I love the AK, but it sounds like you're very experienced with the AR. I wonder if the added reliability and ruggedness will be worth it to you, since you've developed a lot of muscle memory on the AR. (And I believe there's a lot to be said for muscle memory if you ever have to fight with your rifle). Just curious, why are you considering a Saiga? Because I love my S-12. I love the simple design, reliability, and ruggedness like you stated. Another thought was to dress it up in a black/black laminate stock set and have a matched pair of custom Saigas. I couldn't do that with an AR. Shooting is more about technique, and muscle memory should only come into play in a timed competition scenario or battle. Hopefully I'll never have to do any battle with any of my guns, but [in my mind] it would be a more up-close-and-personal type of battle that would require a different type of weapon than a long range rifle, but you never know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TORTIS 1 Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 With Tula ammo I was getting 2.5'' groups at 100yds with my Saiga in .223 with a 3x9 scope. This three shot group is with 45gr soft point that I reloaded with IMR 4198 with Wolf primers. Not the best powder for this bullet, but I have a lot of both. This group was shot with blowing winds from a bench. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmckechnie 1 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Not to hijack, but Yeoldetool, what kind of round is that in your revolver in your avatar picture? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t3mac21 1 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 judge with .410 slugs just a guess Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 A general effect I've noticed is that using the bulk ammo (Herters, Wolf, and Tula), my 16" Saiga and 16" AR will shoot roughly the same sized groups at 100 yards. Using match ammo, my Saiga will shoot the same size groups as it did with bulk ammo, whereas the AR's groups will be noticeably tighter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted April 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Not to hijack, but Yeoldetool, what kind of round is that in your revolver in your avatar picture? It's a Judge with 410 buckshot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dobravery 49 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Just some observations. . . An AR doesn't make a novice shooter into a good shooter. A good shooter with a Saiga will out-shoot him. Just because a lot of AR's are very accurate, doesn't mean that all are. People often lump all AR's together though there is a reason some are expensive and some are bargain builds. I know a lot of AR's can digest the steel cased import ammo, but I've also seen and heard of a bunch that don't very well. Since you train with an AR, I'd think you'd be inclined to get one. Plus if your AR doesn't make the cut, you could buy a new upper or barrel etc. The Saiga will do what it does Maybe a trigger swap might help. If you plan to shoot steel ammo a lot, then I'd get the Saiga. Mine does at least 2.5" with 62grn. I agree with DrThunder about more expensive ammo, though I do believe custom loads can do great things. When I read ammo reviews, I seldom ever hear of AR owners doing great with steal ammo. They usually just bitch about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t3mac21 1 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 A quality AR will digest steel no problem. The only issue may be shooting a bunch of steel, and then switching to brass in one session. You may get some carbon blow-back with steel cases causing carbon buildup and stuck brass. Many people run steel through AR's everyday. A quality AR15 is more accurate than a saiga. It's not a flaw or lower quality, it's design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dobravery 49 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) Yeah, I think a lot is user related and depends on the AR setup. I looked at Midway USA's reviews of Wolf ammo. A lot of AR owners ran great. Half thought it was the worst ammo they ever bought and wouldn't cycle. So who knows? ? ? Edited April 26, 2011 by dobravery Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t3mac21 1 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 well, it is pretty shitty ammo. It's fine to plink with but it's underpowered and dirty, it lacks good QC and it's innaccurate compared to other stuff. Here's a good write-up http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 If your looking to match your s-12, go for it, it will probably be as accurate as any AR in it's price range and more reliable/simple. You already have a few AR's it seems, why not throw some ultra rugged variety in there? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bpipe95 8 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) I have no AK experience to speak of, but I'm considering acquiring a Saiga .223 OR an AR-15. I understand the mechanics of both, but I'm concerned with the accuracy of the Saiga. Will it be as good as I would expect with an AR? A bit of background.... I'm an LEO and qualify yearly with a Colt AR-15 and I've been top shooter among 500+/- other officers about 5 times out of the last 20 years. What would this new rifle be used for? Maintenance of skills? Taking additional classes on personal time? Shooting from a bench? And how is your duty rifle set up? (barrel length, stock) Due to your job and your duty rifle I would push you to an AR. You already have success with the platform and you can continue to grow and improve. The AR will be more accurate if you buy quality parts or whole gun. I recently sold my share of an AR specialty shop (I was co-owner and gun builder) If you have any AR questions please feel free to ask. Edited April 26, 2011 by bpipe95 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted April 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 What would this new rifle be used for? Maintenance of skills? Taking additional classes on personal time? Shooting from a bench? And how is your duty rifle set up? (barrel length, stock) I'll try to get caught up a little here. First, the duty rifles are Vietnam era Colt AR-15 SP1 with literally thousands of rounds through them. Well maintained and arsenal rotated quarterly. They are all good shooters. 20" barrel, triangle forend. Second, I intend for my new rifle to be a plinker from the bench and to use it to hunt woodchucks and coyotes mostly. It's not a replacement for what I'm used to. More of an addition. I just want it to be accurate enough to hit woodchucks and dogs out to 300 yards, because that's about the farthest shot I would be able to take on my farm. Third, at my age I'm about done with further "personal training". If your looking to match your s-12, go for it, it will probably be as accurate as any AR in it's price range and more reliable/simple. You already have a few AR's it seems, why not throw some ultra rugged variety in there? I'm really leaning this way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t3mac21 1 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Get one. You already have an s12, so why not? Worst case scenario is you're out a few hundred bucks and don't like it. That's not likely though, I don't know anyone who doesn't enjoy shooting an AK. 300 yards might be pushing it for humane shots on a coyote or groundhog with iron sights with an AK pattern rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bpipe95 8 Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 Ok I would deff go with an AR. If you want to build your own I would lay it out like this 18"-20" standard profile barrel. (keep your velocity up with out adding to much weight)(brand of barrel will depend on your price range) I built a bench gun for a customer using a Saber defense barrel and it by far is the most accurate semi auto I have built and shot. Stag striped upper and lower (these are by far the best bang for your buck regarding fitment and quality) little known fact is that stags parent company CMT makes most of colts parts. CMT M16 BCG (or young nat match if you want a baller one) MWISS 15" hand guard (light strong and cost effective) a Low pro gas block and rifle gas tube will of course will go under this Vltor A1 length fixted stock (great cheek weld)and standard A1 buffer tube, buffer/spring Trigger of your choice, just don't piss your money away one the high dollar fake "2 stage" units. Grip and sights of your choice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeMacCham 8 Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) I went through the same delima. And after shooting the 223 and researching a AR in the s&w m&p price range (under 1k) I decided to keep the Saiga and get a coyote scope. It hits a 12" Steele target with iron sites at 300 yards and eats cheap ammo all day. Think it comes down to any Ar vs Ak debate. Cheap and always goes bang or hit a apples vs a watermellon at 300 yards. If you're using it in a Leo senario Ar Shtf sinario and don't want corosive ammo issues, can use cheAp ammo, if it kills who cares how close i got to dead center then 223 Ak. Then again i have other guns that are for accuracy. Edited April 30, 2011 by MikeMacCham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrSaiga223 1 Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 It sounds as if you are proficient with the AR, and with a little tweaking you can definitely tighten the groups from a Saiga 223. The major concern is will it meet your expectations? The .223 is more accurate than a standard AK, but it is still not as accurate as your average AR. There are several variables to be evaluated though so I say going for it just for the sake of matching your S12 alone sounds like a good reason to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ICarryIWB 2 Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Both guns have their place. I find it funny how many AR makers are switching over to the tried and true gas piston system from direct impingement -- and charging more for it (less parts, more money?). Get both an AR and an AK if you're really having a hard time deciding. They'll last forever anyway, so why not? I know we're talking $$$ here, but so long as you don't go out buying pairs of rifles all the time, it may not be so bad of an idea. My personal preference goes toward the AK though. An AK will not shoot as tight as an AR, but from a practical standpoint, it is as accurate as it needs to be, and it can be treated like shit and still run. Additionally, they are very easy and fun to work on. Do what you want to do and don't look back. Take care. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I'll toss my 2 cents in.. I have a Saiga in 308 that will shoot under a 2 1/2" x 4" size at 200 yards with a scope.. my new DPMS LR-308 (AR) will shoot 1 5/8" groups at the same 200 yards with a similar power scope (3-9) now my Saiga I had in 545x39 would shoot 1 1/2" - 1 3/4" with the mil-surp ammo at 100 yards all day with a 6x $30 scope... in the AR department.. best deal ready-to-go would be.. Surplus Arms and Ammo COMPLETE lower for $165.. and Palmetto State Armory 16" SS COMPLETE Upper.. $430.. So for about $640 you can have a 5.56/.223 chambered rifle.. w/M4 feed ramps and an A3 flattop to mount a scope.. I would like a 223 Saiga, but after conversion to the AK styling.. I would have shelled out over the $640 I am sure.. Albert Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrSaiga223 1 Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I'll toss my 2 cents in.. I have a Saiga in 308 that will shoot under a 2 1/2" x 4" size at 200 yards with a scope.. my new DPMS LR-308 (AR) will shoot 1 5/8" groups at the same 200 yards with a similar power scope (3-9) now my Saiga I had in 545x39 would shoot 1 1/2" - 1 3/4" with the mil-surp ammo at 100 yards all day with a 6x $30 scope... in the AR department.. best deal ready-to-go would be.. Surplus Arms and Ammo COMPLETE lower for $165.. and Palmetto State Armory 16" SS COMPLETE Upper.. $430.. So for about $640 you can have a 5.56/.223 chambered rifle.. w/M4 feed ramps and an A3 flattop to mount a scope.. I would like a 223 Saiga, but after conversion to the AK styling.. I would have shelled out over the $640 I am sure.. Albert Don't be so sure. I paid $340 for my Saiga 223 less than 6 months ago and paid roughly $200 to convert it. Unless you want to add the fancier Tromix folding stock adapters and stuff like that you can do the conversion even cheaper than I did. I have heard of people staying under $100 for everything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 @ MrSaiga223.. lets say $600 for Saiga 223 restored to AK like styling.. or an AR15 for $640 which the OP has experience with.. Saiga 223 = $400 currently.. G2 = $29 retainer plate = $8 disc spring = $2 tapco stock = $ 30 tapco SAW PG = $17 PG screw/nut = $9 Total = $495.. if he wants a MagPul Stock add about $100.. thus said total would be $595.. choice is going to fall on the OP.. Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 @ MrSaiga223.. lets say $600 for Saiga 223 restored to AK like styling.. or an AR15 for $640 which the OP has experience with.. Saiga 223 = $400 currently.. G2 = $29 retainer plate = $8 disc spring = $2 tapco stock = $ 30 Timbersmith stock set = $120 tapco SAW PG = $17 PG screw/nut = $9 Lower hand guard retainer = $50 Gas tube w/ upper HG brackets = $$30 combined shipping costs = (+/-) $50 Total = $495.. $690 if he wants a MagPul Stock add about $100.. thus said total would be $595.. choice is going to fall on the OP.. Al Fixed it. The idea would be to MATCH my S12, not just have another Saiga. Alternatively, I believe I found a brand new AR-15 for $20 more than that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrSaiga223 1 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 @ MrSaiga223.. lets say $600 for Saiga 223 restored to AK like styling.. or an AR15 for $640 which the OP has experience with.. Saiga 223 = $400 currently.. G2 = $29 retainer plate = $8 disc spring = $2 tapco stock = $ 30 Timbersmith stock set = $120 tapco SAW PG = $17 PG screw/nut = $9 Lower hand guard retainer = $50 Gas tube w/ upper HG brackets = $30 combined shipping costs = (+/-) $50 Total = $495.. $690 if he wants a MagPul Stock add about $100.. thus said total would be $595.. choice is going to fall on the OP.. Al Fixed it. The idea would be to MATCH my S12, not just have another Saiga. Alternatively, I believe I found a brand new AR-15 for $20 more than that. If that's the case just grab the AR.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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