Home defense

[Heath_h49008 442]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html

 

 

Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday...

 

 

Good men dead. A family without a father. Maybe it's better just to get a steel door and bars on the windows, than to try to defend your family.

 

What do you guys think? Is it just too risky to protect your home these days?

[MT Predator 2,294]

How is this home defense? He tried to defy the law serving a warrant.

[jimdigriz 580]

How is this home defense? He tried to defy the law serving a warrant.

 

You automatically accept the police's version of the story, which in many cases in the past have been lies intended to cover their asses after a monumental screw-up. For instance, the officers who killed 92 year old Katherine Johnston planted marijuana in her residence after the tip they based the no-knock raid on didn't pan out. In many other cases, police have done no-knock raids on wrong houses. Homeowners have no way of knowing who is knocking down their door in the middle of the night; even if they did identify themselves as police, so have home invaders on many occasions.

 

A big red flag in this particular story is that the homeowner fired NO shots, but the police went wild and fired 71.

 

SWAT teams should be disbanded everywhere. It was fine to have one for certain extreme situations in big cities, but now their primary purpose is to invade houses of drug suspects, who would be better and more safely (for citizens AND police) arrested by more conventional tactics. That is, if you believe the idiotic drug war should continue.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[YOT 3,743]

I can not say he was a good man. I didn't know him. Though he may have done honorable things, there must have been a reason for a raid on his home. Police don't just arbitrarily pick homes to raid. They depend on investigation, surveillance, and cause.

[timy 1,185]

How is this home defense? He tried to defy the law serving a warrant.

 

You automatically accept the police's version of the story, which in many cases in the past have been lies intended to cover their asses after a monumental screw-up. For instance, the officers who killed 92 year old Katherine Johnston planted marijuana in her residence after the tip they based the no-knock raid on didn't pan out. In many other cases, police have done no-knock raids on wrong houses. Homeowners have no way of knowing who is knocking down their door in the middle of the night; even if they did identify themselves as police, so have home invaders on many occasions.

 

A big red flag in this particular story is that the homeowner fired NO shots, but the police went wild and fired 71.

 

SWAT teams should be disbanded everywhere. It was fine to have one for certain extreme situations in big cities, but now their primary purpose is to invade houses of drug suspects, who would be better and more safely (for citizens AND police) arrested by more conventional tactics. That is, if you believe the idiotic drug war should continue.

 

You pretty much nailed it. They may have gotten the wrong address for all we know. I don't know if he was good or bad at this point, but do know he's dead without firing a shot and that the SWAT team now has to hold a fund raiser to buy more ammo.

[magsite20 1,664]

[jimdigriz 580]

I can not say he was a good man. I didn't know him. Though he may have done honorable things, there must have been a reason for a raid on his home. Police don't just arbitrarily pick homes to raid. They depend on investigation, surveillance, and cause.

 

This is pretty naive. There have been many wrong address raids, as well as raids based on faulty or malicious tips.

 

Take a look at the map on this page:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

 

Note particularly the raids on innocent suspects.

 

I don't know if the map is being continually updated with new incidents, but it should get the point across.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[YOT 3,743]

I can not say he was a good man. I didn't know him. Though he may have done honorable things, there must have been a reason for a raid on his home. Police don't just arbitrarily pick homes to raid. They depend on investigation, surveillance, and cause.

 

This is pretty naive. There have been many wrong address raids, as well as raids based on faulty or malicious tips.

 

Take a look at the map on this page:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

 

Note particularly the raids on innocent suspects.

 

I don't know if the map is being continually updated with new incidents, but it should get the point across.

 

 

Faulty or malicious tips? I fully understand that. I have a Bi-polar and very vindictive ex-wife.

 

Of course you point out the grey balloons on your map. What about pointing out the blue ones, too? I also see by your map that it is highly inaccurate. I know of at least two NYS troopers killed in rural areas, in the line of duty in the past 5 years that aren't indicated on your map. Don't believe everything that's posted on biased web-sites. That in itself is very naive.

[Arik 565]

To be accurate or at least more accurate it needs Successful raids on violent offenders where no one died and Successful raids on violent offenders where the offender died and one where the offender kills a house memeber and probably a bunch more that I didn't think off. Only then will you get a better picture of how good or bad these raids are

[jimdigriz 580]

I also see by your map that it is highly inaccurate. I know of at least two NYS troopers killed in rural areas, in the line of duty in the past 5 years that aren't indicated on your map. Don't believe everything that's posted on biased web-sites. That in itself is very naive.

All of the items on the map are sourced. Just click on them. I made no claim that the map was exhaustive, nor does Balko, so far as I can tell.

 

Of course you point out the grey balloons on your map. What about pointing out the blue ones, too?

The blue ones are important too. It illustrates one of the things I said previously in the thread, namely that conventional means of apprehending drug perpetrators are safer for citizens AND police. Barging in someone's house in the middle of the night is bound to set off people's fight or flight reflex, and that is bad for police. They are endangering citizens' lives and their own through use of these reckless and ill-advised tactics.

 

Anyhow, aside from all this, your claim that there HAD to be some valid reason for them to raid this house is clearly false. Police are not infallible; that's something that should not be in need of demonstration.

[jimdigriz 580]

To be accurate or at least more accurate it needs Successful raids on violent offenders where no one died and Successful raids on violent offenders where the offender died and one where the offender kills a house memeber and probably a bunch more that I didn't think off.

Most of these raids are not on violent offenders. It is the police who are unnecessarily introducing violence into these situations, and causing innocents to be killed or wounded. It is not worth it in order to catch someone with a bag of marijuana. Thanks to this crap, law-abiding citizens in a supposedly free country have to worry about the scenario of cops busting down the door in the middle of the night, and having to make a split-second life-and-death decision about whether the invaders are cops or criminals. Choose wrong and you die, or go to jail.

[chevyman097 2,579]

oh lawd...... Didnt even get to the story before I could see where this is going.

[Heath_h49008 442]

Skip the cop vs non-cop stuff guys. We are all armed citizens here.

 

The question is, is it better to just put up cameras and armor the house, or respond armed and risk getting killed.

[1liter 20]

Die fighting or groveling like a Bitch. I don't see the question.

[jimdigriz 580]

Skip the cop vs non-cop stuff guys. We are all armed citizens here.

 

The question is, is it better to just put up cameras and armor the house, or respond armed and risk getting killed.

 

If you are a law-abiding citizen, the chances are that if someone is busting down your door in the middle of the night, it is criminals. So the default action is to respond armed. Yes, this may get you killed (and possibly posthumously defamed), but failing to respond armed can get you killed too.

[YOT 3,743]

 

 

If you are a law-abiding citizen, the chances are that if someone is busting down your door in the middle of the night, it is criminals.

 

 

Sounds like a recent movie.

[magsite20 1,664]

One of the things with this type of problem is simply you don't have the facts,

so unless you have first hand knowledge everything is just gut feeling, bullshit, and/or speculation.

The mans dead so that's one side of the story that will never be known completely.

While from sitting here 71 shots and the way the story was written it sure doesn't look good, (my gut feeling, bullshit, and/or speculation)

 

I wasn't there and when guns are involved decisions have to be made in a split second.

 

Cops are people and they have to make a choice shoot or possibility be shot.

I'm glad they have people who do that kind of work, it's sure not what I'd want for a job.

 

Edited May 12, 2011 by 20-Mags

[jimdigriz 580]

One of the things with this type of problem is simply you don't have the facts,

so unless you have first hand knowledge everything is just gut feeling, bullshit, and/or speculation.

Easy solution: Multiple video cams of these raids. Then we will know whether the cops were telling the truth or defaming the victims. But cops do not want their actions filmed, in general.

 

I'm glad they have people who do that kind of work

Not me. I'd prefer they return to legitimate police work, and not endanger people's lives needlessly. Save the macho kick-down-the-door stuff for hostage situations and other scenarios like that in which violent perpetrators are involved.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[magsite20 1,664]

The world and the cops have changed with the times (not so much for the better) some of the best examples I can think of on how law enforcement has changed is shown in these photos of English and New York police:

 

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

+1 jim. that job draws a certain personality type. most crave the adrenaline rush . many have character or personality flaws and enjoy having power over others. they used to be peace officers. now law enforcement. pass a law and they en- FORCE It. just like king herod's police/men were sent to kill all males two and under. the kings word was law . the police of the day en-FORCED it. its naive to think that a night time dynamic entry is the best way.

i swear some pray for a stand off. that way they can play with their big toys. 71 rds? no flash bang grenades?

rant over. back on topic. as for me. what they are yelling is meaningless. my home is being attacked . at that point my only purpose in life is to defend my wife and children.once past the fence and dogs , statistically they have about eight seconds to neutralize me. i have some surprises waiting .

anyone living off the back of the tax payer . entrusted with weapons, and equip. supplied by the tax payer. should be randomly drug tested. especially for steroids.

[JamesLi 47]

 

We have no idea why his house was raided, but it is automatically assumed that the police were wrong just because they are the police. We treat our police the same as other countries treat our military. Regardless of the action or intention, it's wrong.

[magsite20 1,664]

[Dudethebagman 222]

Having formerly worked in EMS, I certainly appreciate that the world needs cops to keep people from being able to totally run amok. Somebody has to be the heavy, and they sometimes have to make split second decisions in bad situations that have dire consequences.

 

That being said, the job does tend to attract a fair number of violent zealots. It gets worse when adrenaline and groupthink takes over when they play commando on stakeouts/raids/have a suspect surrounded.

 

Certainly there are good cops and worse cops. They have a job to do, but that's what it is - a job. Not a higher calling that instantly makes them heroes once they are hired to do the government's bidding. I think I'd feel a little more positive toward them when they were held accountable for huge fuck ups like this, rather than getting off scott-free just because of hero-worship.

 

Anyone who kicks a guy's door down unannounced with his family inside should expect to be shot at. I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself in that scenario. Those cops should have known better and should be held to the same standard as anyone else who unjustifiably enters a home, fires 71 shots, and kills an apparently innocent party. The fact that it's their job to arrest people and use deadly force when necessary doesn't excuse a "mistake" of that magnitude. These stormtroopers seem to have acted negligently and should have their lives ruined to serve as an example to prevent this kind of behavior from continuing. They should only go in guns-a-blazin' when they are absolutely sure of what they are doing.

 

Unfortunately, I have a feeling they won't face any consequences.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Why are people saying SWAT kicked in the door unannounced? Did the LEOs admit that? If they announce and find a guy pointing an AR at them, wtf are they supposed to do, wait until the first guy in the stack goes down, then react? If they really where there to serve that guy, then it was justified IMO. My brother is a SERT officer and I hear what shit they have to put up with. They don't just turn SWAT/SERT loose for nothing either.

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

is this too many rounds fired? http://youtu.be/c1y1UQuBkVQ

 

your video is not even close to a proper comparison. a daytime traffic stop. the subject fired first.

i would like to be educated by an enFORCER of the law as to why military tactics are necessary .

when i was growing up. seeing a patrol car near didnt cause ones asshole to pucker. now these "public servants" can ruin your life or even take it arbitrarily. we may have to suffer now. however i believe justice will come. the vast majority of people killed violently. have been killed by government.

my advice to the ENFORCERS is pray hard every day to the god of their choice. if things fall apart economically. or anarchy comes, they are many many times out numbered by the citizens which are preyed upon financially. intimidated with arrogance and tortured with blunt force or electrocution.

back on topic . knowing that criminals use these same home invasion tactics. truthfully what would your response be.

[DogMan 2,343]

Skip the cop vs non-cop stuff guys. We are all armed citizens here.

 

The question is, is it better to just put up cameras and armor the house, or respond armed and risk getting killed.

 

I would say the answer to that question would heavily depend on whether there would ever be any legitimate reason whatsoever for cops to be coming through your door. If there is, you should just get your hands high in the air and hope they are real cops. If not, which is the case for the overwhelming majority of people here including me, then I can tell you that if that ever happens to me then I will be assuming they have got the wrong address which means THEY could think I am anybody from a pot smoker to a cop killer or anyone in between. The fact that there would be no reason for cops to be coming through my door would also lead me to believe these could be imposters doing a home invasion. In either case I will be forced to conclude that my life is in immediate danger and their is probably going to be a cop funeral, or a cop impersonators funeral in the near future. If cops come busting through my door for any reason that means they have fucked up somewhere along the line, not me. I may go down, too, but I'm taking somebody with me. It would be a shame if it was a real cop, but it's not my job to mitigate their mistakes in the blink of an eye. All I can say is if you are going to bust down people's doors, you better get your shit straight be sure you have the right door, and it ain't mine.

[Dudethebagman 222]

Why are people saying SWAT kicked in the door unannounced? Did the LEOs admit that?

 

Maybe they wanted the element of surprise. Maybe they just got caught up in the moment and forgot. Maybe they announced and no one heard them. The wife didn't hear. The cops now have an incentive to lie about announcing to cover up their mistake. If they didn't announce and things went sour because of that, do you really think they'd admit it now?

 

If they announce and find a guy pointing an AR at them, wtf are they supposed to do, wait until the first guy in the stack goes down, then react? If they really where there to serve that guy, then it was justified IMO. They don't just turn SWAT/SERT loose for nothing either.

 

It's all conjecture. Probably we'll never know what really happened. It certainly seems that they weren't acting on reliable information. Dude recently got out of the military, bought a house with his wife and kids, and was working for a living to pay his bills. It seems unlikely that someone with so much to lose would both lead a life of crime AND work full time at a mine on the graveyard shift.

 

If they had reliable information that the guy was a serial killer/terrorist/Al Capone/had hostages, I can see them being justified raiding his house and shooting him because he had a gun. But that doesn't seem like the case here.

 

They don't send the SWAT in to "serve" people, but to "execute" warrants. Hence all the body armor and automatic weapons. They have those toys and the funding, so they'll use them and justify their funding if they get an excuse. I worked with some of those guys who were both police and medics, and they liked to get to break out their toys and collect the overtime.

 

The circumstances indicate that they maybe send in SWAT without giving it enough forethought. I'm not saying they shouldn't have taken a shot once they were inside and the dude had a gun. I'm saying maybe they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

 

My brother is a SERT officer and I hear what shit they have to put up with.

They don't HAVE to put up with anything. They do the job voluntarily because they like it.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Dudethebagman

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

The police say that they had sirens on the way to the house, with lights running and it wasn't a no-knock warrant.

 

The reporter said that the paper couldn't find many people who would answer the door or talk, but that at least one neighbor said the first thing she heard was shooting. But she didn't want her name used, and they won't use anonymous sources. I suspect the lawyers in the civil suit will find more witnesses.

 

This is kind of reminding me of the professionalism of the Lubbock Texas SWAT team. And the professionalism of the Prince George's County SWAT team.

[Sly 233]

Was he laying there alive? Did they let him bleed out?

 

"KGUN9 has uncovered that it took one-hour-and-fourteen-minutes for that to happen. "From the time paramedics arrived on scene until they were allowed in the home, it was one-hour-and-fourteen- minutes."

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14630314/lawyer-wants-marines-good-name-restored

 

 

looks like they took that article down? Why would they not let the paramedics in?

 

 

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14621212/marine-killed-by-swat-was-acting-in-defense-says-family

 

 

 

"When I came out the officers dragged me through the kitchen and took me outside, and that's when I saw him laying there gasping for air," Vanessa Guerena said. "I kept begging the officers to call an ambulance that maybe he could make it and that my baby was still inside."

 

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html

 

 

 

 

I'm just asking?

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

I look at 71 rounds as 2 full AK mags plus another one 1/3 loaded = 2 reloads after dumping your first magazine.

 

Regardless of the other circumstances, for a single man, his wife and 5 year old son, having a SWAT team and 71 rounds fired seems to me like excessive force regardless of how many drugs and how much money was found in the residence. The SWAT teams are supposed to be the elite police with even better and more effective training than any of us piss-on civilians can dream of handling - why does it take 71 rounds to subdue a single man?

 

The other thing that bothers me (even if he is completely guilty of all charges and even more shit they didn't even know about) is the lack of EMT's to provide aid to him as he is gasping for his last breaths watching his wife get man-handled out of the house. If they were going in that hot with SWAT, they should have been prepared by having EMT's ready at a minimum safe distance or have an EMT in the SWAT unit to treat the wounded after they are no longer threats.