elvis christ 451 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Someone school me. I've sent emails back and forth with a guy at Azex, and he says that there's a different latch or latch connecting rod on the front of the receiver, and it sounds like something that I'm really not comfortable doing on my gun, but if someone could explain it better, I might be willing to give it a shot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Cobra's Custom has the latch that you need. Edited July 23, 2011 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inzami 36 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Thanks for the photos, those are exactly what I needed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elvis christ 451 Posted July 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I found this on akforum.net http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/docs/construction/sidefolder/side_folder.htm good pics and some templates. So far, what I've determined I need is: 4.5mm trunnion from Turbothis S12 specific front latch kit from Cobra or AK builder US made stock and folding mechanism from K-var I still haven't decided if this is something I want to take on myself, or if I'm going to pay someone to do it. I really don't feel like fucking up my new s12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I found this on akforum.net http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/docs/construction/sidefolder/side_folder.htm good pics and some templates. So far, what I've determined I need is: 4.5mm trunnion from Turbothis S12 specific front latch kit from Cobra or AK builder US made stock and folding mechanism from K-var I still haven't decided if this is something I want to take on myself, or if I'm going to pay someone to do it. I really don't feel like fucking up my new s12. You are going to need to get a 4.5mm stock to 5.5mm hinge adapter. Everything KVar has is 5.5mm. This type of conversion is pretty involved. Fitting the receiver for the rear block is a very slow process. If you use templates, make sure they are correct for the rear block that you are installing as the geometry is different on 4.5mm and 5.5mm. I do mine by eye. Figuring out how to press the rivets is the hardest part if you do not have access to a hydraulic press. Good luck and post some pics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jamesavery22 54 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 It is a lot of work. How hard it is depends on what you've done before and are comfortable with... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/31499-my-s12-write-up/ You do need/should use a press to dimple/counter-sink the two bottom rivet holes for the rear trunnion. I don't know of any other way to do it. 12 ton harbor freight press for < $150 is a good tool to have that will probably last longer than you so why not You'll find the rivet jigs on akfiles.com's marketplace. The biggest "pain" for me when I installed one last was finding the front latch. At that time there was no source in the states. I had to make my own. Small piece and a lot of hand filing. Had to make it out of aluminum and it's not hardened or finished properly. It's only to hold the stock folded. Not exactly a critical piece so I don't care. Maybe the rusky ones can be found now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Some background that might help: The Russians originally used 4.5mm hardware for the metal triangle folders on the AKS74 and AKS74U/AKSU rifles. The Bulgarians built AK's in the 80's on Russian tooling and used the same 4.5mm hardware and basically the same triangle stocks. Around 1992 the AK74M came into service and the Russians changed to a new 5.5mm hinge pin. At the same time they discontinued the triangle folder on the 74M and went with a black polymer stock and added a pistol grip reinforcement plate to help protect the receiver if the weapon was dropped on the pistol grip with the stock folded. The AKS74U continued to use the 4.5mm hardware and triangle folders however, and so did the Bulgarian rifles. To my knowledge none of the 4.5mm weapons got the PG reinforcement plate but they could have I just don't recall hearing about it. Later the Bulgarians copied the polymer folder but produced it in the 4.5mm version to fit existing rifles. The Russians also came out with 5.5mm triangle stocks for custom orders or new weapons like the Bizon. All the front latches are the same as far as I can tell, Russia or Bulgaria never seemed to change them for any rifles. The Saiga 12 uses a special front latch because of the RPK style reinforcement of the front trunnion. These used to be rare but are relatively common these days, several US builders make them including Cobra 762 if I'm not mistaken. There are period correct stocks and hardware for the type of weapon you are converting to a side folder, technically a Saiga 12 should use 5.5mm hardware because it is an AK100 pattern weapon but you as the buyer will see both 4.5mm and 5.5mm hardware and stocks for sale. They are often not clearly described, and they are not easy to mix and match. Functionally there is little practical difference which version you install, though you might get some funny looks from the purists if you go with 4.5mm on an S12. Visually the 4.5mm has no cutout on the hinge and you can't see the hinge pin itself. It also has a 6 degree angle for the stock which is not really visible. The 5.5mm stock has a cutout and you can see the hinge pin itself. The stock is at a 4 degree angle on the receiver. Lately the 5.5mm hardware on the market seems to be made for civilian rifles which in Russia are modified so they cannot fire with the stock folded. This leaves a distinct cutout in the diameter of the hinge pin and a not so obvious channel or ledge down the side of the trunnion itself. Neither affects function in US weapons because we aren't installing the linkage that prevents the FCG from moving when the stock is folded, but you can see the difference in hinge pins. Thirtycal took a nice pic of the differences in trunnion design between 4.5mm and 5.5mm Z Edited July 25, 2011 by TX-Zen 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Slightly off topic, but when was the change from the izhmash buttplate replacement buttpad, vs the slotted strapped leather buttpad stocks? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elvis christ 451 Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I found this on akforum.net http://pookieweb.dyn...side_folder.htm good pics and some templates. So far, what I've determined I need is: 4.5mm trunnion from Turbothis S12 specific front latch kit from Cobra or AK builder US made stock and folding mechanism from K-var I still haven't decided if this is something I want to take on myself, or if I'm going to pay someone to do it. I really don't feel like fucking up my new s12. You are going to need to get a 4.5mm stock to 5.5mm hinge adapter. Everything KVar has is 5.5mm. This type of conversion is pretty involved. Fitting the receiver for the rear block is a very slow process. If you use templates, make sure they are correct for the rear block that you are installing as the geometry is different on 4.5mm and 5.5mm. I do mine by eye. Figuring out how to press the rivets is the hardest part if you do not have access to a hydraulic press. Good luck and post some pics. Not true, I saw this one http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16844&cat=0&page=1 and figured I could use a 4.5mm mechanism. I think dude makes both sized trunnions, though. Really at this point, I'm gathering parts, and then I'll figure out how everything goes together. Also, thanks for the info, TXzen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I found this on akforum.net http://pookieweb.dyn...side_folder.htm good pics and some templates. So far, what I've determined I need is: 4.5mm trunnion from Turbothis S12 specific front latch kit from Cobra or AK builder US made stock and folding mechanism from K-var I still haven't decided if this is something I want to take on myself, or if I'm going to pay someone to do it. I really don't feel like fucking up my new s12. You are going to need to get a 4.5mm stock to 5.5mm hinge adapter. Everything KVar has is 5.5mm. This type of conversion is pretty involved. Fitting the receiver for the rear block is a very slow process. If you use templates, make sure they are correct for the rear block that you are installing as the geometry is different on 4.5mm and 5.5mm. I do mine by eye. Figuring out how to press the rivets is the hardest part if you do not have access to a hydraulic press. Good luck and post some pics. Not true, I saw this one http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16844&cat=0&page=1 and figured I could use a 4.5mm mechanism. I think dude makes both sized trunnions, though. Really at this point, I'm gathering parts, and then I'll figure out how everything goes together. Also, thanks for the info, TXzen You are right. I misunderstood what you meant by saying "folding mechanism from KVar". Sorry. Good luck and post pics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HarvKY 72 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 For those interested......... turbothis currently has a new batch of the AK100 trunnions posted for sale on another AKcentric forum He has both 4.5mm and 5.5mm versions Cheers, Harv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 For those interested......... turbothis currently has a new batch of the AK100 trunnions posted for sale on another AKcentric forum He has both 4.5mm and 5.5mm versions Cheers, Harv $100 shipped? Wow! He should list them on Gunbroker.... I'm glad that I socked away a few complete kits while they were still available. You never know what you might want to build in the future Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HarvKY 72 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 For those interested......... turbothis currently has a new batch of the AK100 trunnions posted for sale on another AKcentric forum He has both 4.5mm and 5.5mm versions Cheers, Harv $100 shipped? Wow! He should list them on Gunbroker.... I'm glad that I socked away a few complete kits while they were still available. You never know what you might want to build in the future Another guy posted 4 demilled (I believe) AK100 hinge & stock sets for $265 each They all went quick Thats the market these days....... Harv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeluvsk 58 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 I want one of these stock sets in 5.5mm, I just can't justify the cost. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jamen 8 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 An alternative source for the parts for doing an AK100 stock is www.rusmilitary.com. They are a UK based company, and have the stock listed for 47 pounds and the rear receiver parts for 52 pounds. According to their web site the buttstock is in stock and the rear receiver parts arrive today (July 29)!!! They run out of stock often, so the fact that they are in stock now is nice. According to the web site, you get 20% off those prices if you are outside the EU and therefore don't have to pay their VAT (value added tax, basically a sales tax). You do have to pay shipping. It is about $1.65 for a British Pound right now. So, 47 x .8 = 37.6 x 1.65 = $62.04 for the buttstock, plus shipping. 52 x .8 = 41.6 x 1.65 = $68.64 for the rear parts, plus shipping. The rear parts setup from rusmilitary includes the front latch for most-all stamped receiver AK variants except the Saiga 12 too, if you wanted to use the stock on a rifle, or the .410 Saiga you'd be all set with those two items. This doesn't include the front latch for the Saiga 12 application, but as already noted Cobra or ak-builder.com have US made clones of those parts, at about the same price rusmilitary charges for the real Russian ones (when they have them, they don't now, according to their web site, but may sometime in August). I have ordered from rusmilitary with no problem. They also have the factory recoil pad for the AK100 style stock, meant specifically for the Saiga 12 I think. It is a neat accessory, but pricey for what you get. But, in for a penny, in for a pound, right? I think this is the stock setup to go with. It is a lot of work, but the gun looks so sharp it's ridiculous, and I don't know of any folder, on any gun, that works better. A few might be said to work as well, like the FNC, or the Daewoo K2. Most folder suck. The AK100 folder kicks butt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 All of my Kalashnikovs have AK100'folders except two 24"'Saiga 12s. Ihave stocks to put on them, but don't feel like doing it right now. The AK100 is absolutely my favorite stock, bar none. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeluvsk 58 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 This is the right trunion folder for the S12 right? AK buttstock's folding action kit (COMPLETE SET) COMPLETE set of parts for AKS-74/ -74M/ -102/ -103/ -104/ -105 butt's folding action (rear trunion with 5.5mm hinge & hardware, rear & front retainer sets - buttstock NOT included) Price: £54-00 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jamen 8 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 This is the right trunion folder for the S12 right? AK buttstock's folding action kit (COMPLETE SET) COMPLETE set of parts for AKS-74/ -74M/ -102/ -103/ -104/ -105 butt's folding action (rear trunion with 5.5mm hinge & hardware, rear & front retainer sets - buttstock NOT included) Price: £54-00 Yes that is the correct rear assembly for the Saiga 12. I guess, between when I posted and now, the price went up 2 pounds for the buttstock, and also two pounds for the rear kit. Sorry, if you'd ordered yesterday, it was cheaper. That rear kit includes a front latch set that won't work for a Saiga 12. You can sell it, or just keep it for when you want to do a different gun that is based more on the traditional AK receiver and barrel trunion. Or, if you don't care if the stock latches when it's folded or if it just flops around, you can skip that altogether. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeluvsk 58 Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 I emailed them to find out if they're instock. It might be worth putting a few of them in the safe for another day.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elvis christ 451 Posted July 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Alright, I changed my mind, I'm going with the 5.5mm mechanism. K-var is out of their 4.5mm kit, and I don't feel like waiting around for them to get something, I know how they are. I'll just order this stuff from rusmilitary, it'll be more correct, anyhow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sKott 26 Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 Check out my build, It may have the info you seek... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/21197-skotts-saiga-12-c-conversion/ skott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeluvsk 58 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I never heard back from RUSMILITARY, they show everything out of stock. Has anyone recently placed an order with them and received there orders? whats usually the wait time for one of these stocks? I found this one ebay seems kinda high on the price, I can't justify spending $400 on a folding stock. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=246916367 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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