xbmxxx 5 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 First off, Mods, if this is in the wrong section, please move it to the proper one. I thought there was a legal section, but this isnt 922r related. 2 weekends ago A few first time shooters, an experienced friend, and myself decided to take a trip to the mountains to go target shooting. Along with us we took my converted Saiga12, Hipoint 995ts, Hipoint C9, S&W .38, Mossberg 500, and a old no name .22 pistol. My other friend (experienced) brought along his AK47 and Mosin Nagant. We drove about 2 hours outside of Denver in to the national forest to a spot I shoot at regularly. This spot meets all of CO rules reguarding shooting, and the police officer agreed on this. When we got there we hung targets, drew a firing line in the dirt, and began to shoot. At this point I'm not sure what happened. What I do know, is that I was off to the side/behind the people shooting, loading a magazine for the AK, and one of the first timers was next to me (Travis) loading a magazine for my Saiga. Somehow one of the other first timers (Abe) shot the one next to me in the back. What we found out happened later was that Travy had loaded 5 rounds in to the .22 pistol. He fired four and then it clicked. Not sure if it was a FTL or a misfire, but the 5th round didnt fire. He (somehow) thought that it was empty and gave it to abe. I have no idea how that 5th round ended up firing, but it did, and it hit him in the lower back a few cm from his spine. There was no Cell reception where we were, so after a few frantic seconds (that felt like hours) had passed, We decided to put him in the back seat of my car and drive him to the nearest town to use a landline. On the way there I passed a Sheriff who I was able to flag down. It is amazing how hard it is to get a police officer to stop when you want them to, i ended up having to pass him and slide the car sideways blocking him to get him to stop. He instructed me to follow him a few miles to a volunteer fire department where flight for live was called and Travis was airlifted to a hospital in Lakewood. I left all my firearms/gear/ammo with the people in the 2nd car, who stayed after I took off to collect everything, and then they met us at the fire station. After Travis was gone, we were instructed to remove all firearms from the vehicle one by one and show him they were unloaded and the chambers were clear. We then went inside to fill out our witness statements. After a few hours of sitting, a victims advocate was called in and we were required to speak with her one on one. Abe was arrested and driven in handcuffs to the Jefferson County courthouse to be booked. after roughly 6 hours we were told that we were free to go, but that they were keeping all the firearms until the hospital confirmed which round Travis was struck by, and then all firearms of other calibers would be released, and that someone would call us when this happened. We were given no property tags or any thing of that sort. Travis was released from the hospital the next morning. The round struck a vertebrae cracking it, and he was told that he had almost no injury and was just going to be sore for a while. They decided to leave the round in rather then risk removing it. Its now approaching 3 weeks since he was released by the Hospital, so all of our firearms except the .22 should be able to be released. No one has been in touch with either I or Zach, and the officer who I stopped doesn't return phone calls. I could care less about the .22, But I want the rest of my firearms back, and so does Zach. Any idea on how to go about this, who to contact, etc? I really dont want to have to involve a lawyer. PS. After abe was booked, he was told he would get a phone call for a court date and thats it. No paper ticket, no case number, no DA name. sorry about the rant, and thanks in advance for any and all help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longhorn 81 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Sorry dude for your troubles. The police will have to do an investigation, and clear the fact that said gun was used as you say it was, and not in a manner otherwise stated. They will need solid facts to clear all alleged criminal wrong doing, like attempted murder and they will keep your guns until they are satisfied. I hope your buddy recovers fully and you recover your guns. Not to add insult to injury, but you should really be careful who you choose to go shooting with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xbmxxx 5 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Trust me, I will be MUCH more careful about who, and where I go. If I ever see them again I am only going to the local range from now on. The whole having to put him in the backseat with the person that shot him holding pressure on it, with my girfriend in the passenger seat trying to call 911 on 3 different phones, and my trying to rally drive my way on dirt roads to the highway and chasing down an unwilling to stop sheriff was enough to scare me in to just paying the range fee. The part thats scaring me is that Abe wasnt formally charged. He was put in cuffs, taken to central booking, fingerprinted, etc, and then they just told him they'd be in touch for a court date if the investigators/DA decide to charge. The hospital should have told the investigators that it was a .22 that night if not the next day, and its plainly obvious to anyone that he didnt get shot from under 5 feet with a 12 gauge. I am just getting scared because I have no information about anything, or even proof that they were taken in to custody. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stnls1911 55 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 You really need a lawyer, and that lawyer should have been present during questioning. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Sorry for your friend hope he will be OK. It is too late it seems, but I suggest you watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xbmxxx 5 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Hes good. He was released early the following morning with a heavy lifting restriction, but he is back at work, and should be able to get back in the gym soon. Thanks for the help! Ill watch the videos when I get a free few minutes. The police didnt really ask much, they just sat us all at separate tables with instructions not to speak to each other, and had us write down on paper our account of what happened. An investigator showed up and took them all to read. She then came back out after saying they all matched up perfect and we were good to go. I'll try calling the officer again tomorrow and see if I can get anywhere, at least a number of someone else to call. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 (edited) That's good news! If I were asked to write down anything my response would have been no thanks. It may take a little prodding to get your weapons returned. If you know an attorney, I would have him/her write a letter if this drags on for too long. Be safe, Yakdung Edited August 4, 2011 by yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 That's good news! If I were asked to write down anything my response would have been no thanks. You certainly have the right to do that or to insist on having an attorney present, but sometimes it's not the right call. It will likely change the way the police look at the situation, and at you. That could be bad. If they are looking to crucify someone it might be the right thing to do, if it seems like they are treating it as essentially an accidental/negligent discharge then maybe it isn't. Everyone has to make their own call about these things, and the feeling you get from the cops is likely to suggest what you should do. If I was the guy who pulled the trigger then it's a whole lot more difficult, particularly before you know the outcome at the hospital. It would totally suck in about every way possible. But wow, glad nobody was crippled or killed. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fauxknight 30 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Hopefully it is just a matter of them taking awhile to process everything. Sometimes it just takes time. Glad everyone is doing well. This is a good example of why we should be redundantly safe when handling firearms, there are a number of safe handling procedures where if any 1 of them had been done this would not have happened. I don't mind taking new shooters out, but I keep my eyes peeled and constantly remind them of safety when I see them doing or about to do something dumb. Its amazing how many times you have to remind some people about simple things like muzzle control. Other things like how to handle a misfire might be harder to teach, since sometimes they happen so rarely (I've never had a hangfire or squibfire myself, but I'm always prepared, just in case). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 (edited) That's good news! If I were asked to write down anything my response would have been no thanks. You certainly have the right to do that or to insist on having an attorney present, but sometimes it's not the right call. It will likely change the way the police look at the situation, and at you. That could be bad. If they are looking to crucify someone it might be the right thing to do, if it seems like they are treating it as essentially an accidental/negligent discharge then maybe it isn't. Everyone has to make their own call about these things, and the feeling you get from the cops is likely to suggest what you should do. If I was the guy who pulled the trigger then it's a whole lot more difficult, particularly before you know the outcome at the hospital. It would totally suck in about every way possible. But wow, glad nobody was crippled or killed. I agree with this as it pertains to the people who were not the shooter. In this case the truth is your friend. Once a lawyer hears your story, all he's gonna do is advise you to tell them the truth, which you are going to have to do at some point anyway. However if I'm the shooter I'm probably going to get some legal advice before I make a statement. Not only for legal protection but in anticipation of possible civil action as well, especially if I am unsure of the victim's prognosis. Edited August 4, 2011 by DogMan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 A friend of mine that is an attorney once told me "you have the right to remain silent, so shut the fuck up". Sometimes when trying to do the right thing and being honest in today's anti-gun climate, things can go wrong very fast. Consider that charges were based on what law enforcement officials were told by the parties when the accident occurred. A friend of mine had a gun related accident out in the middle of nowhere on his property that required being driven to a local hospital. Once he arrived to have a piece of a round removed from his shoulder, the questions started. Simple polite answers were given, but few details were given as a response. It was an attempt to try and discover a means to charge my friend with something. If you are not free to go, exercise your constitutional right and remain silent in my view but be courteous and polite. Yakdung 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koljec 37 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 (edited) You should also be concerned about civil liability, maybe even moreso. You might want to advise Abe to get an attorney to head off any civil claim that might be coming his way. Do airlifts ring up a tab? Edited August 4, 2011 by Koljec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black3 16 Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Damn, I hate to say this because I'm almost always on the cops' side, but NEVER, EVER talk to a cop without a lawyer. They do all this friendly "we're just trying to find out what happened" stuff which fits the narrow legal definition of a non-custodial interview during which you are not entitled to representation. But, once they have your friendly, cooperative statements, you are fully liable for them and with a prosecutor running for re-election, you're fucked. Sorry, it does make you the asshole of the group, but the right answer is, "officer, I'd like my attorney, please." 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xbmxxx 5 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 You: "We were given no property tags or any thing of that sort." What may be said now: "Other guns, what other guns, all we took was the 22 that was in question." This is EXACTLY what I am so nervous about. Travis is very aware it was an accident, holds no grudges, and him and abe have been hanging out multiple times since then, so I dont think a Civil suit is a probability but it IS always possible. Should abe be getting/paying for an attorney when they haven't formally charged him yet? We still dont know if they are even going to pursue charges. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 ^ I say yes, get a lawyer now. Look at it as saving him money later not spending. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) This shit's deep enough that I recommend you contact and meet with an attorney immediately. I'm glad to hear that your friend's gonna be ok. If the round lodged in a vertebrae, it's a good thing it's no bigger than .22LR, else he'd probably have been crippled if not killed. Your description of what happened is exactly why I don't generally go shooting with people who are unfamiliar with firearms, and if I do, I control the guns, ammo, mags, etc until they're on the firing line ready to go, (one at a time until they have some idea wtf they're doing). Good luck resolving this, man. Edited August 5, 2011 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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