Ban is in effect

[MindRiot 83]

Well we tried to get approval on importing more Saiga 12's and here is the red stamp on the back saying a big hellz noz.It is official!!!!

SG Restrictions.pdf

Edited August 8, 2011 by MindRiot

[thoricuncle 19]

Hmmm, Sorry but I read this as good news...

 

Those are the same restrictions as are currently in place. However, one is missing, I don't see where a rear pistol grip is forbidden for import.

 

I hope this means we can import Saiga's with a rear pistol grip and the FCG in the place God intended.

 

Just my read on it.

[jswledhed 57]

Who is "we"?

[MindRiot 83]

This was for the current configured Saiga 12. It is not good news, now to import them no side rail can be installed at the factory.

[Arik 565]

Doesn't sounnd like the S12. Not imported with telescoping, foldind stock nor pistol grip, nor less the 18in barrel (that im aware off), nor a mag capacity of more then 5, ment to be fired from the sholder, has no nato lug....

 

What you can't import sounds like what the saiga allready doesn't have!

 

If that makes sense

[Nailbomb 10,221]

This is why the new models may be coming without the optics mount, or side rail.

 

Nothing new, just another hurdle. Not a defacto ban.

[thoricuncle 19]

By integrated rail system, I believe they are talking about a picatinny rail.

 

I am pretty sure the side scope mount does not count as a "rail system".

 

I agree with Arik, this sounds like exactly what it is today. Except it mentions "Forward pistol grip" but doesn't mention "rear pistol grip".

 

Still doubt the sky is falling.

[supertex 242]

what does that mean for the mka1919 ?

[Nailbomb 10,221]

what does that mean for the mka1919 ?

Nothing. Its single top rail won't have any issue with the new rules.

[Arik 565]

I can just see it now. 6 months down the road, on gunbroker, "Ultra Rare, imported for a short time, get it now,...a Saiga 12 with a RUSSIAN TACTICAL SIDE SCOPE MOUNT! Only $2000!! And for an extra $1000 we'll add a one piece 18 way collapsable stock/pistol grip a UTG hand guard and aimpoint clone!"

[MindRiot 83]

We are WPA and there is no other reason on the deny stamp other than the rail. So there you go. Oh and the permit was for the standard Saiga 12. I have no reason to lie about it lol

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

..............

Edited August 8, 2011 by Matthew Hopkins

[csspecs 1,987]

We are WPA and there is no other reason on the deny stamp other than the rail. So there you go. Oh and the permit was for the standard Saiga 12. I have no reason to lie about it lol

 

But its a scope mount not a rail. Its not like you can bolt a grip or flash light to it.

 

Sounds like a error in their interpretation.. Or someones paper work.

 

The below is the specs for a rail system. The scope mounting base is hardly a rail system as it can't be used in an unsporting way. The only thing that fits the scope mount base is a scope mount that puts the scope above the barrel.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M1913A_Rail_CrossSection.svg

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Picantinny-recoilgroove-diagram.gif

[MindRiot 83]

There are aftermarket attachments that convert it to hold anything like a light and so forth. It is the same paper work that we filed before the study.

[csspecs 1,987]

Yes and there are after market mags over 10 rounds, and a cut off saw makes it a SBS in 10 secs. The only view that maters is as imported.

 

As imported its a scope mounting base, not an integrated rail system.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Well then, everyone explain the reason it was denied?

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

I want to see a actual ''Disapproved' stamp on the form 6, and the exact reason given.

I want to see ' Section II - FOR ATF USE ONLY (please make no entries in this section)'

I want to see this box checked. 'DISAPPROVED FOR THE REASON INDICATED HERE OR ON ATTACHED LETTER'

That just looks like a list of restrictions on imports, lets see the whole form.

 

For some reason this smells like bullshit to me.

Put up or shut up, lets see the form in its entirety.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChileRelleno

[beefcakeb99 572]

Put up or shut up, lets see the form in its entirety.

This I agree with.

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

I want to see a actual ''Disapproved' stamp on the form 6, and the exact reason given.

I want to see ' Section II - FOR ATF USE ONLY (please make no entries in this section)'

I want to see this box checked. 'DISAPPROVED FOR THE REASON INDICATED HERE OR ON ATTACHED LETTER'

That just looks like a list of restrictions on imports, lets see the whole form.

 

For some reason this smells like bullshit to me.

Put up or shut up, lets see the form in its entirety.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I gotta agree with you there, the stamping looks like it's just a restriction notice, the first sentence says it all, "this permit does not authorize the importation.....", then it list the restriction.

 

there is a check box on the form 6 that states, "partally approved for the reason indicated here or on attached letter". that is not a disapproval, but a approval with restriction. I'm betting that is what it is.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Matthew Hopkins

[MindRiot 83]

this stamp was on the back of a recently approved permit for the saiga 12, from now on all saiga 12's will be subject to these restrictions. This basically means the only difference is they will not have a scope rail on the side. Therefore any Saiga 12 with a factory side rail will be considered a pre study type shotgun.

 

 

[thoricuncle 19]

We are WPA and there is no other reason on the deny stamp other than the rail. So there you go. Oh and the permit was for the standard Saiga 12. I have no reason to lie about it lol

 

 

 

this stamp was on the back of a recently approved permit for the saiga 12, from now on all saiga 12's will be subject to these restrictions. This basically means the only difference is they will not have a scope rail on the side. Therefore any Saiga 12 with a factory side rail will be considered a pre study type shotgun.

 

On the first post you said, "We tried". It should actually have read, "We tried and succeeded"

 

Just so I'm clear, there was nothing denied. The permit was approved and the Saiga's were received.

 

Now for my question, "Have you ordered Saiga-12's with the scope rail and had the permit denied?"

 

If that hasn't happened, I don't see what the issue is. Maybe, just maybe, the sky is not falling (at least not yet).

[MindRiot 83]

This permit was approved without a scope rail, with form 6 for the saiga 12 with the rail was denied. If you read the stamp it tells you what the limitations are for import. Integrated rail system other than on top of the receiver or barrel. Now if someone wants to post a approved form 6 for a saiga 12 in original configuration after the study was published I would love to see it and find out why ours was denied.

[jswledhed 57]

I want to see a actual "Disapproved" stamp on the form 6, and the exact reason given.

 

I agree. The only thing we've seen proof of thus far is that someone owns a stamp and a red ink pad.

 

Thread title and original post is very misleading. Sounds an awful lot like many gunshow vendors beating the ban drum when trying to justify four figure prices on a basic Saiga 12.

Edited August 9, 2011 by jswledhed

[csspecs 1,987]

Where does it say you can't have the rail?

 

Because that stamp lists multiple features which the stock saiga-12 does not have.

 

Please show us the letter that states the reason for denial.

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

the title of the post isn't just misleading, it's bullshit

[MindRiot 83]

Lol how is it misleading? It was approved without the rail and not approved with the rail. Yeah I am a gunshow vendor beating a drum about keeping prices high HAHA. Hell we have been sold out of 12's for months and are just trying to get more, btw the factory is out of the pre manufactured 12's anyway. Any further imports will have to be manufactured by IzhMash and with the transfer rate they will be more expensive.

[clifton 354]

I want to see a actual "Disapproved" stamp on the form 6, and the exact reason given.

 

I agree. The only thing we've seen proof of thus far is that someone owns a stamp and a red ink pad.

 

Thread title and original post is very misleading. Sounds an awful lot like many gunshow vendors beating the ban drum when trying to justify four figure prices on a basic Saiga 12.

 

 

I know Kevin Personally, If he is telling you that's what he received then thats what he received. He is a rather large importer, 20000 guns a month been there seen it. He has no reason to lie. We will see how this pans out but no scare tactics here.

[csspecs 1,987]

Lol how is it misleading? It was approved without the rail and not approved with the rail. Yeah I am a gunshow vendor beating a drum about keeping prices high HAHA. Hell we have been sold out of 12's for months and are just trying to get more, btw the factory is out of the pre manufactured 12's anyway. Any further imports will have to be manufactured by IzhMash and with the transfer rate they will be more expensive.

 

 

So you have more coming in to sell? Just without the useless scope mount.. Ok good to know.

 

Scope rail is easy to install with the right tools. Or we can just use one of the other better options.. On a plus side, it makes left side folders a better option. I'm sure the Russians know how to remove a scope base.

[MindRiot 83]

The factory only has 762's and 308's in stock right now and they will be the etched receivers. I think they may have some 20 gauge shotguns but with the study being put into effect we didnt even file for them since the 12 came back denied. Any new production will not have the etching but will cost more I believe.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

MindRiot, you're so full of shit... And, Yes, your thread title and initial post was quite misleading.

You come in screaming that the sky is falling, that the S12 is banned from import.

 

THREAD TITLE: Ban is in effect, here is proof from a form 6

 

FIRST POST:

Well we tried to get approval on importing more Saiga 12's and here is the red stamp on the back saying a big hellz noz.It is official!!!!

 

Then the story changes... That earns you the Chicken Little Award

................................................................................

 

You could've come in' date=' and from the git-go said that the ATF is "No longer allowing Importation with the Side Rail Scope Mount" and that your "Initial Import Request in that configuration was denied".

But noooooooo , "S12s are BANNED!"

 

 

 

 

I can fully believe that the alphabet boys would call the scope mount a integrated rail system, and not allow import configured thusly.

I would still like to see the attached letter explaining their reasoning and labeling the scope mount as such.

This, not to call you a liar, but to further show just how fucked up the BATFE really is.

Cause this is right up there with the shoelace machine gun.

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChileRelleno