shootinsurveyor 2 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 I am in the process of building a S12 and would like to move on to a 223 when that is done. I like have the same basic controls and such on 2 different weapons. I know the 7.62 saiga will run well, but I have heard mixed things about the 223 models. Some instructors say that the reliability on 223 models of AKs is questionable. Why is this or is it even true? Vickers says if you want a 223 AK, get a galil. I am looking to run this as a DMR rifle with a 1x4 scope with fastfire on top with a beryl mount. Point me in the right direction guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 I am in the process of building a S12 and would like to move on to a 223 when that is done. I like have the same basic controls and such on 2 different weapons. I know the 7.62 saiga will run well, but I have heard mixed things about the 223 models. Some instructors say that the reliability on 223 models of AKs is questionable. Why is this or is it even true? Vickers says if you want a 223 AK, get a galil. I am looking to run this as a DMR rifle with a 1x4 scope with fastfire on top with a beryl mount. Point me in the right direction guys. It's plenty reliable. It may be _slightly_ more maintenance intensive than the 5.45 or 7.62x39 variants. Make sure to get some milspec mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CFOofEVIL 8 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) I've never had any issues with my 223. It does dent the hell out of the cases, but I normally shoot cheap steel cased Monarch out of it anyway. If you don't replace the stock handguard, it gets HOT very quickly. If there are specific issues folks are starting to see more, I'd like to hear what they are (just so I can look out for them!). I hear you about having the same manual of arms with the S12, thats why I dig my 223. Edited December 19, 2011 by CFOofEVIL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swells08 128 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 My 223 is a tank...1,000's of rounds and not one hiccup...I love my rifle! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 I am in the process of building a S12 and would like to move on to a 223 when that is done. I like have the same basic controls and such on 2 different weapons. I know the 7.62 saiga will run well, but I have heard mixed things about the 223 models. Some instructors say that the reliability on 223 models of AKs is questionable. Why is this or is it even true? Vickers says if you want a 223 AK, get a galil. I am looking to run this as a DMR rifle with a 1x4 scope with fastfire on top with a beryl mount. Point me in the right direction guys. Some models of the 223 AK are questionable. Most have to do with mags designed for the 545 with a 223/556 floor plates, that caused feeding issues. My two Saiga 223's run flawless with Surefire mags and no bullet guides. Others uses galil mags with bullet guides and have little to zero problems with feeding. I would choose the Saiga over a Galil any day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grimm100 13 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 My 2009 RRA 223 has 1000 or so through without any issues. I started with Surefires and had 100% reliability. Installed the bullet guide and tried steel galil and bulgy cirlce 10's. The galil mags didnt work at all so I got rid of them. The last 600 or so rounds have been through the circle 10's with no hiccups at all. I also modified the factory 10 rounders to work with the guide and they are 100% as well. Another 223 on the way actually. Merry Christmas to me! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vais01 3 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I have over 600 since my restoration most of it has been mixed brass, steel, XM193 and home grown. No issues except when absolute out of spec ammo is used (over charged or too long of OAL). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Donkeyshins 87 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 So far, I've put about 300 rounds through my Saiga .223 without any issues. However, I just put in a bullet guide and will be trying out some IMI 12-round magazines soon, so I expect a few teething issues when I take it to the range again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dorky_D 8 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I had some issues initially with one of the legs of the main spring jumping off the trigger bar. I bent the one leg out a little and re-positioned and it is fine (see Carolina Shooter Supply vid for the tip). I have had issues with Russian Hollow points not feeding right with Tapco Galil Mags and to a lesser degree the Bulgarian Circle 10s. I am working through my Bulgarian mags and filing the fronts down a little at a time. I think I am 100% on the 4 I have with the Russian hollow points. I think the Russian steel cased stuff is not as hot, so I do not think the bolt carrier comes back quite as far. I think hotter loads may a tad better. I would not call it unreliable at this point, but there may be a little work required on mags. BTW I have never ever had an issue with the factory mag. I would assume the same with the sure fire mags too, but I cannot say. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vais01 3 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I had some issues initially with one of the legs of the main spring jumping off the trigger bar. I bent the one leg out a little and re-positioned and it is fine (see Carolina Shooter Supply vid for the tip). I have had issues with Russian Hollow points not feeding right with Tapco Galil Mags and to a lesser degree the Bulgarian Circle 10s. I am working through my Bulgarian mags and filing the fronts down a little at a time. I think I am 100% on the 4 I have with the Russian hollow points. I think the Russian steel cased stuff is not as hot, so I do not think the bolt carrier comes back quite as far. I think hotter loads may a tad better. I would not call it unreliable at this point, but there may be a little work required on mags. BTW I have never ever had an issue with the factory mag. I would assume the same with the sure fire mags too, but I cannot say. The pressure on the steel cased stuff is lower due to the use of steel instead of brass. Since the cases are steel, the case walls can be thinner to allow the cases to conform to the chamber when firing. At the same time the greater area in the cases with the same standard powder charge will equal lower pressure. Lower pressure also means less wear and tear since the parts are not slammed back and forward nearly as hard. As for magazines the Bulgarian circle 10's and the East German Weigers are both top notch when you use a good bullet guide. I have fed my Saiga full metal jackets, hollow points, ballistic tips, soft points, cut-offs(cut the top portion of the bullet off a heavy grain bullet to create a flat point) and long and short cartridge OAL loaded ammo with no failures that can be pointed to the rifle or the magazines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dorky_D 8 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 I would not call my issues that I have had real problems for the gun or the magazines. I would call them fit issues with the magazines. Getting the front of the mags filed just enough to fit. I would rather file a little at a time to make them fit rather than too much and it wiggle or not feed right because of it. I would call the problems I have servicable and not a fault of the gun. The circle 10s are great, I just need to make them great for my gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vais01 3 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 I would not call my issues that I have had real problems for the gun or the magazines. I would call them fit issues with the magazines. Getting the front of the mags filed just enough to fit. I would rather file a little at a time to make them fit rather than too much and it wiggle or not feed right because of it. I would call the problems I have servicable and not a fault of the gun. The circle 10s are great, I just need to make them great for my gun. It happens. I have fitted magazines for pistols and several other rifles in the past so I have learned from my mistakes especially the $50.00 one. My back pocket still hurts because of that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Donkeyshins 87 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) As for magazines the Bulgarian circle 10's and the East German Weigers are both top notch when you use a good bullet guide. I have fed my Saiga full metal jackets, hollow points, ballistic tips, soft points, cut-offs(cut the top portion of the bullet off a heavy grain bullet to create a flat point) and long and short cartridge OAL loaded ammo with no failures that can be pointed to the rifle or the magazines. I'm going to probably buy a couple of 20rd. Circle 10 magazines to see how they work out. Edited December 21, 2011 by Donkeyshins Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) Mine functions 100% except for things that can't really be blamed on the gun: Failures: - One JHP round slammed into the bullet guide and shoved the bullet back into the case. Shot hundreds of JHP and only happened once. - One of my steel Galil mags has a weak spring and will occasionally FTF on the second to last round. Round sits loose in the mag and will nose up into the top of the chamber when it happens. - Bad batch of Tulammo .223 got me a lot of stuck cases. Most had light surface corrosion, very tight in the chamber. It is as reliable as my 7.62x39 rifles. Edited December 22, 2011 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 how do they put dents in casings? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 The case is ejected backwards directly into the leading edge of the dust cover. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SgtRaven 531 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) IMO, it's all about the "build", and not the core rifle itself. My .223 "core" was just as solid as 5.45 I've got earlier. But I've had dented casings in 5.45 build, and not a scratch or any type of hiccup with .223 project. Sure I put more efforts into .223 build and used experience from 5.45 built earlier. But despite positive personal "field experience" with standard issue full-autos in 5.45 and 7.62, I'd take Saiga in .223 all day long for practical reasons. If I had to go from CQB to short/mid range, I'd stick to 7.62. Since I don't mind double-tapping for home defense, I'll take .223. Speaking of Galil: since mil-spec is N/A, I'll pass Century's builds, despite the propaganda. And Galil mags in Saiga wobble and suck wind, unlike brands mentioned above. Decision is yours, but stated reliability issues (including statements from "Gun Gods") don't hold water well. Surf the forum and find for yourself. Good luck and happy shooting! Edited March 8, 2012 by Sgt. Raven Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Never had any issue with any of my Saiga 223 platforms and my wife and I have shot thousands of rounds through them. I wish I could say the same for the AR15 I've previously owned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Thousands of rounds with Surefire 20 and 30 rounders and the factory 10. Absolutely zero failures of any sort and I'm a bit lax on maintenance too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THX1138 7 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I have about 500 rds through my .223 it works great with Surefire mags, I have a promag that my wife got for me and that one feeds great as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 IMO, it's all about the "build", and not the core rifle itself. My .223 "core" was just as solid as 5.45 I've got earlier. But I've had dented casings in 5.45 build, and not a scratch or any type of hiccup with .223 project. Sure I put more efforts into .223 build and used experience from 5.45 built earlier. But despite positive personal "field experience" with standard issue full-autos in 5.45 and 7.62, I'd take Saiga in .223 all day long for practical reasons. Build/ Core? what are you talking about man? lol where did you try out full auto AKs? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I wonder if the Saiga .223 would pass the twinkie test... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SgtRaven 531 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Build/ Core? what are you talking about man? lol "Build": project of conversion/upgrade. "Core": Saiga "as arrived" ("sportster"). where did you try out full auto AKs? In Service (Army Airborne). Edited March 8, 2012 by Sgt. Raven 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) In Service (Army Airborne). neato what calibers? Anyway I'm confused as to what type of reliability you are talking about. As far as I'm concerned a rifle's reliability is all about the 'core' : the trigger group, receiver, and magazine doing the job of feeding, firing, ejecting, and repeating the cycle. Edited March 9, 2012 by Foxtrot Oscar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SgtRaven 531 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) In Service (Army Airborne). neato what calibers? ... Standard commblock AK issues: 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 mm, plus infantry weapons in 7.62x54R (SVD and PK-line). Also, as it appears, the key statement of starting post is this: Some instructors say that the reliability on 223 models of AKs is questionable Russians didn't make ("full") AK in .223 earlier, and their AK-s are still not being imported here; therefore, Saiga is the closest thing we can get. The talk must be about other AK-s already imported (or assembled) in .223, particularly Romanians and Century-build. Few of my friends have SAR-s, and I've had Draco in the past. I haven't seen WORSE quality rifles in my life. I risk "generating the waves", but you cannot compare Romanian (commercial) AK available here to Soviet/Russian made AK. There seems like no pride or honor in making those Romaks/SARs. Poor fit and finish; slapped together like there is no tomorrow. Don't get me wrong: they shoot. But IMO, they're disgrace to AK family, at least in their imported form. Therefore, if you want quality built, get (original) Russian or (original, not Arsenal LV, Nevada) Bulgarian AK. But since it's virtually impossible, Saiga is the best "core" or base for quality AK-style rifle in .223. Follow the conversion threads here, ask questions, post your progress, and have a great time. Happy shooting! Edited March 10, 2012 by Sgt. Raven 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 In Service (Army Airborne). neato what calibers? ... Standard commblock AK ssues: 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 mm, plus infantry weapons in 7.62x54R (SVD and PK-line). Also, as it appears, the key statement of starting post is this: Some instructors say that the reliability on 223 models of AKs is questionable Russians didn't make ("full") AK in .223 earlier, and their AK-s are still not being imported; therefore, Saiga is the closest thing we can get. The talk must be about other AK-s already imported (or assembled) in .223, particularly Romanians and Century-build. Few of my friends have SAR-s, and I've had Draco in the past. I haven't seen WORSE quality rifles in my life. I risk "generating the waves", but you cannot compare Romanian (commercial) AK available here to Soviet/Russian made AK. There seems like no pride or honor in making those Romaks/SARs. Poor fit and finish; slapped together like there is no tomorrow. Don't get me wrong: they shoot. But IMO, they're disgrace to AK family, at least in their imported form. Therefore, if you want quality built, get (original) Russian or (original, not Arsenal) Bulgarian AK. But since it's virtually impossible, Saiga is the best "core" or base for quality rifle in .223. Follow the conversion threads here, ask questions, post your progress, and have a great time. Happy shooting! I agree with Sgt. Raven. I have yet to find a better AK platform 223, and I'm always looking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joseph 141 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I've shot% handled both SLR 106's and fully converted saigas in 5.56. they are both great guns very soild, certantly reliable Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Nice. I'd like to buy a Saiga .223 and make it look like an AK101 without going overboard on cost. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Then you should probably buy an SLR-106. My conversion is all AK-101 minus the folding stock. I love it and it cost several hundred less, but for the work involved, if I had to do it again I would just pick up an SLR-106. If you want to make something 100% your own and don't intend to clone another rifle, go for a Saiga. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 If you want to make something 100% your own and don't intend to clone another rifle, go for a Saiga. your rifle is a beaut. That is exactly what I want. I don't have any experience but don't want to pay someone an arm and a leg to convert it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.