Which is more ideal - rifled slugs or a Saiga 12 Winchoke adapter

[benherrmann 0]

Hello all:

 

This is my first posting here so if my question(s) appear(s) to sound like a newby, perhaps it is so with regards to shotguns. Although I've been shooting for quite awhile (over 40 years), it's only recently that I became enamored with various shotguns.

 

So I recently purchased a gorgeous Arsenal Model 12 Gauge Saiga model shotgun shown here:

 

 

However, when shooting regular slugs through this gun - even with a shotgun scope attached - I couldn't hit the side of a barn. No matter how many times I tried to zero in several shotgun scopes, the patterns were so inconsistent that I just about gave up. I even tried at 25 yards (both with a Leupold and Nikon shotgun scope) with no luck in accuracy.

 

Then I was told that I needed to use "rifled" slugs that are designed for smoothbore shotguns - as this would greatly improve accuracy. Of course, alot of good this does me now since I recently purchased 250 slug rounds (specifically law enforcement strike force slugs - not rifled).

 

Then I heard that there is a Saiga 12 Choke Adapter that comes either as the adapter alone, or the adapter with a rifled slug choke already attached.

 

So my questions are:

 

1. Will the use of rifled slugs make my shooting more accurate (as opposed to using regular slugs), and...

 

2. Is there a Saiga 12 Choke Adapter out there - and is it worth it (does it make shooting regular slugs more accurate), and if so, where I can I get one (link perhaps)?

 

Thanks in advance for this info.

 

Ben Herrmann

MGySgt. USMC (Retired)

Fuquay Varina, NC

[Shandlanos 1,470]

There is a rifled choke for the S12 called the "Paradox" choke, made in Russia by Izhmash. They're pretty hard to find, and expensive. I'll be the first of many on this forum to tell you, the first thing that shotgun needs is the fire control group moved forward in the receiver. The FCG in Saiga rifles and shotguns is moved to the rear of the receiver to accomodate the goofy monte carlo stock they come with from the factory - moving the FCG forward to the correct position for an AK-style firearm will greatly enhance the ergonomic feel of your new boomstick.

 

As it's a smoothbore shotgun, you need "rifled" slugs to impart spin for stabilization. If you are firing sabot slugs, they aren't being stabilized, and you're more or less firing a very modern, semi-automatic musket.

 

Another alternative is begging Tony Rumore of Tromix to buy another Pac-Nor rifled 12-gauge barrel blank, contour it for a Saiga-12 and make for you what I think would only be the second Saiga-12 with a rifled barrel.

[Castalia 19]

Here is a link to a winchoke adapter made by Cobra: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/56319-new-style-winchoke-adapters-2/

 

I purchased one and use the Winchester extended rifled choke. It works fairly well. Better would be a fully rifled barrel. I also use skeet, modified and full for shot.

 

More ideal is the use of rifled slugs.

 

Thought about using the poly-choke type but went with this setup so I could have a rifled choke for slugs.

 

Good luck with your quest, Castalia

Edited February 7, 2012 by Castalia

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Judging from the bi-pod, rifled slugs would work best for what you apparently want. The adaptor would only spin the sabot slugs for the last few inches of barrel length thusly they'd become less stable than a projectile that has been spinning since ignition.

[theorangeplanet 968]

The rifling on rifled slugs don't impart enough, if any spin to aid in accuracy significantly. They're really just there for the grooves to allow space for the lead to swage through various sized shotgun chokes. Their shape and weight distribution (foster slug) is what allows them to fly accurately without tumbling and don't need to be rifle stabilized.

[Salt1219 176]

on a completely unrelated note, welcome to the forum.

[netpackrat 566]

The rifling on rifled slugs don't impart enough, if any spin to aid in accuracy significantly. They're really just there for the grooves to allow space for the lead to swage through various sized shotgun chokes. Their shape and weight distribution (foster slug) is what allows them to fly accurately without tumbling and don't need to be rifle stabilized.

 

What he said; there is no way that putting "rifling" on a slug will impart a spin from a smooth bore. The only thing the grooves do, is help the soft lead obturate when fired to obtain a better seal with the bore. Firing the "rifled" slugs through a rifled bore should net an improvement in accuracy, but no more than if the slugs were plain.

[RED333 1,025]

Welcome Ben, Thank you for you service to our country.

I am waiting on a 6" rifled choke tube and Cobra choke adatper for my S12, I will give a report on how it works.

[benherrmann 0]

Well, thanks for all of the comments....

 

As I mentioned, I have the Arsenal version of the Saiga and from what I heard, they're one of the better importers (doing modifications on their end).

 

But I still need a bit of clarification here. On one hand, some of you are saying that using a rifled slug should improve accuracy, while others are saying that rifled slugs are worthless and do not cause any spinning of the slug after it's fired.

 

Then one or two of you are saying that using a choke adapter and a slug choke would not have much effect on providing the spin necessary.

 

Sounds like I'm SOL - short of just purchasing a rifled slug gun (which I don't want to do at the moment).

 

Any other suggestions (barrel-wise) on how I can make this Saiga 12 more accurate when shooting slugs, I'd appreciate it. I just need to sort out the best option available to me at the moment - without spending an inordinate amount of bucks in the process. Actually, I'd love to do both - get a good rifled slug and also to invest in some type of choke adapter with a slug choke (to handle those conventional slugs I have now).

 

Thanks again - and thanks for the welcome.

 

Ben

Edited February 6, 2012 by benherrmann

[G O B 3,516]

Get the Winchoke adapter, and then get a rifled choke to fit it.

[gunfun 3,931]

Clarification.

 

Sabot slugs are the most accurate but they are horrible without a rifled barrel.

 

The other types are:

 

Round ball: Least accurate, have to be smaller than your constriction. Some other solids like pure cylinder would have comparable characteristics. Rifling helps

 

foster style (nearly all of which are rifled) The rifling keeps them from exploding your barrel and they can be used in rifled or smoothbore barrels. They are nose heavy due to a hollow in the back which makes them more stable in flight and thus more acurate than round ball. You will get improvement from rifled. These are the most popular in the USA and are reletively cheap. Winchester Super X and Remmington Slugger are common examples. These are more accurate than round ball, but they do not spin in a smooth bore.

 

Pellet (Shuttlecock) style slugs split the difference between Foster and breneke, but are generally intended for rifled bore. Mostly used by reloaders with rifled slug guns. They are known to be good performers.

 

Breneke. Like foster, except the wad stays atatched and works as a stabilizing tail. Typically outperform foster. May be used in smooth or rifled bore.

 

Duplex steel slugs are sort of a variant.

 

Sabot. Typically a black powder bullet encased in a special shot cup. Needs spin to stabilize. Far superior accuracy and trajectory from a rifled barrel, horrible accuracy from smooth bore. Typically much more expensive and smaller caliber. Don't buy them unless you have some rifling. They are safe in any unchoked bore, but not worthwhile.

 

"Paradox" rifled chokes add a few inches of rifling to the end and help, but less than a fully rifled barrel. I have a hastings rifled choke and a winchoke adapter that adds 5"

 

Some "sabot discarding chokes" have what looks like rifling without twist, that is intended to seperate a sabot from it's shot cup. These do not impart spin.

 

Fully rifled barres are not available for the s-12. at least 2 have been made onTromix builds and King Armory was going to produce them.

Edited February 7, 2012 by GunFun

[Marc 147]

you got a link to the slugs you stocked up on?

 

also, what kind of accuracy are you wanting?

[benherrmann 0]

First of all:

 

1. To GUNFUN - many, many thanks for that detailed information on the various types of slug rounds. I've copied that info down - talk about detail. Very, very helpful.

 

2. To Barnett3006:

• I purchased 250 rounds of slugs called "Law Enforcement Strike Slug" originally manufactured by an Italian Company called NSI (which stands for "Nobel Sport Italia," which from what I understand is no longer in business). Here's some data on these slugs, along with a stock photo of the box:
  

Technical Information

 

•Gauge: 12

•Shell Length: 2-3/4"

•Slug Type: Strike Lead Rifled Slug

•Slug Weight: 1-1/8 oz

 

Ballistics Information:

 

•Muzzle Velocity: 1480 fps

 

• I realize that a shotgun is "not" going to give me rifle accuracy, but damnnnn - at least getting it on the target would be nice. For example, if my scope is zeroed in, I'd at least like to put the rounds somewhere in centermass. Right now, they're all over the place and that's when shooting on a rest. And no matter how much I adjust the scope (again - both a Leupold and Nikon shotgun scope), it does not good, as one shot may be high at 11 o'clock, with the next round perhaps 20 inches below at let's say 5 o'clock - and that gets mighty frustrating real quick (and I'm talkin' 25 yards distance here). All I'm looking for is some semblance of accuracy so I have the confidence of knowing that if an Obama supporter is trying to break into my house to "share the wealth," I can at least nail that varmint at 25 - 50 yards distance.
  

Edited February 7, 2012 by Bernd (Ben) Herrmann

[gunfun 3,931]

No problem. I just got some of those too. They are .650 roundball. They are medium power and a little less than an ounce. I would not use them with a choke other than a paradox choke as they do not have any give. For example: the smallest point of my "full" choke tube as sold by Cobra is .689. .650 plus the thickness of the shot cup around the ball must be pretty close to that. I haven't cut a shell to measure it, but that isn't a chance I am interested in taking. If I recall, the Hastings paradox was .676 at the lands, but it was intended to bite in. However that tells me that a load of .650 roundball that only has wadding behind the shot and no surrounding cup would not be gripped by the rifling.

 

In my gun they needed setting #2 to run, and felt a little hot for that setting, but would FTE on #1. I didn't get meaningful accuracy yet, because I suck and was wobbly on Saturday. Once I got my windage dialed in I was holding about a 2" group with the hastings paradox choke at ~ 60 yards. I put 3 of those almost into one hole. That is better than I expected. I didn't compare groupings without the choke, but I would expect significantly worse. If you got the deal at SGammo, I think these worked out to $.27 per shot. Slugger usually is ~$.60/per around here and no cheaper online. Slugger or winchester foster is better, but this is way cheaper and a bit softer on your shoulder. Centurion makes more or less the same thing for the same price.

 

For the range you are talking these are going to be just fine.

 

My experience has been with smooth bore at around 100 yards and the 3" fosters I could expect 4 to 8" groups with a lot of drop. vertical spread is worse with the slower 2 3/4" shells at that range. <75 yards B&P 1200 FPS fosters were soft shooting and made tight groups. However they won't cycle my gun. Most people say to zero to fifty. Consider 150 yards to be the furthest practical range, and 100 to be the extreme ethical hunting shot. others say 75. I have a scope and feel confident to around 125, but there is a lot of drop and I wouldn't take that shot unless you had practiced that far.

 

 

Obviously a rifle is superior for longer shots.

[Marc 147]

NSi is still in business, there ammo is imported by DKG Trading. Their website http://www.dkgtrading.com/nobelsport/index.html they don't have your slugs anywhere on their list though

 

Thats a Brenneke style slug which generally give pretty good accuracy from smoothbore shotguns, maybe you got a bad batch?

 

If I may suggest, go to Walmart and buy a pack or two of either the Remington Sluggers or the Winchester Super X (silver box) slugs and give those a try. They are both Foster style slugs and should give you decent accuracy.

 

another question, there isn't a Full or Extra Full choke on your shotgun? usually, forcing a slug through a tight choke will cause it to moosh through and turn into a misshapen blob of lead with an erratic trajectory.

[benherrmann 0]

I have no choke on my Saiga right now - just a flash suppressor/compensator as seen in the photo above.

[kyvtx1300 5]

Any wiggle on the scope mount? Have you watched anyone else shoot it, to see if something looks off? Do you get the same results using the iron sights? How about taking off the muzzle break for a test? Even a smooth bore at 25 yards should be hitting paper. Something is loose or touching the slug. Watching somone else pull the trigger might make it obvious.

[benherrmann 0]

Nope - no wiggle at all (this is the first thing I checked). The mount and all connections are solid as a rock. One of the range gunsmiths/instructors shot it also - using the Leupold Shotgun scope and he was perplexed also about the accuracy being so far off. He also mentioned about changing ammo (to some rifled slugs) and also to look into some type of choke adapter to fit the Saiga 12. I didn't see anything unusual while the other guy was shooting the gun.

 

But I'll remove the flash suppressor to see if that had anything to do with it the next time I visit the range. In the meantime, I'm also going to pick up a fix Winchester rifled slugs to see if they make any difference at all.

 

Thanks.....

[gunfun 3,931]

Posp rails may be very crooked. In my case, I was hitting almost 3' to the right of my scope, even after fully adjusting the scope to compensate. I ended up having to shim both the weaver clamps with MilSpec Aluminum lightweight gunsmithing shimstock* to fix alignment.

 

Another guy on the forum found that the rivets holding the Posp rail were not solid.

 

 

* I believe the brand was Ruby Red Squirt

[netpackrat 566]

At 25 yards you should be getting way better accuracy than that, even if you were reloading using rocks. I'm with GunFun; that's practically screaming loose scope mount. You should be able to do better than that even with the crappy stock iron sights. I have the Krebs sights, and at 25 using 3" Sluggers, I can cover my groups with a fist. That's nothing to write home about, but I don't need any better from a slug. If I have to use one, the range will be closer than that.

[benherrmann 0]

Well - nothing is loose - as I mentioned (and triple checked). GunFun may be right - meaning the scope mount might be crooked. I have everything boresighted in perfectly (so I assume), so I'll have to change out the scope mount to see if that's the trick. And I'll also remove the flash suppressor. I'm leavin' nothing to chance here.

[RobRez 1,895]

Looks like it is time for me to post my 100yard targets again!! Whoop! These are from a standing position with my S-12 with 16" barrel w/ shark break, shooting the cheap winchester rifled slugs from Wally-world.

I used a zero magnification, Millet red dot w/ 6moa dot, and get these results.

Both targets are 100 yards.

[theorangeplanet 968]

Well - nothing is loose - as I mentioned (and triple checked). GunFun may be right - meaning the scope mount might be crooked. I have everything boresighted in perfectly (so I assume), so I'll have to change out the scope mount to see if that's the trick. And I'll also remove the flash suppressor. I'm leavin' nothing to chance here.

 

Try a grouping just using the iron sights first, that will be the easiest way to confirm if it's the scope or the mount.

[benherrmann 0]

Well, that's certainly impressive - meaning that group. Will pick up some of the Winchester X rifled slugs (only $10 something for a box of 15). Will give those a shot and will first try shooting the other slugs without the scope, using the iron sights only to see if there's a "disconnect" somewhere.

 

Lots of great info in these replies - many thanks.

[RED333 1,025]

All I'm looking for is some semblance of accuracy so I have the confidence of knowing that if an Obama supporter is trying to break into my house to "share the wealth," I can at least nail that varmint at 25 - 50 yards distance.

The longest shot "in" my house is 50 feet and that is from 1 side of the bedroom to the bathroom all the way across the house.

Some say the best load for HD is buck, not me #6 shot is better at very close range, less that 20 feet.

Buck is gona go through the walls.

I wont be taking time to aim, for years I have been shooting

from the hip and have gotten

VERY good at close range.

Edited February 8, 2012 by RED333

[Marc 147]

Just thought of somethin else...as your eliminating the variables and going to take the muzzle brake off, check to make sure that the muzzle has straight sides, the inside diameter is round and has no burrs.

[netpackrat 566]

Some say the best load for HD is buck, not me #6 shot is better at very close range, less that 20 feet.

Buck is gona go through the walls.

 

Do yourself a favor, and set up a couple layers of drywall, then shoot it with your #6 shot. Report back to us on whether it went through both layers or not. I think you'll find that any load with enough penetration for defense, is going to zip right through an interior wall. I used to keep birdshot loaded for home defense too, then I saw a website (google: Box O' Truth) where some guys did a test as described above. Now I load 00 buck.

[benherrmann 0]

Well - whoopppp-te-dooooooo - everything has been solved and my Arsenal Saiga 12 appears to now be a tack driver (if that's even possible for a shotgun).

 

Got to meet with Shannon (Cobra) today. Little did I realize that he lives right here in the same town as I, so I drove down to his place which was only 6 miles from where I lived. I picked up a Win-choke adapter and chatted a bit. I definitely plan on bringing him my Saiga (once his workload lightens up) to do that other work to the bolt, trigger, etc. - it's well worth it from what I saw.

 

Anyway, I took it to the range tonight - had the Win-choke adapter attached and then also attached a rifled choke to that. Those Strike Slugs that I initially complained about that were all over the place....well, now they're right on! I only shot at 50 yards and will go longer the next time I go. I use an indoor range that sports 4 range bays - 3 of them going up to 50 yards (for pistols and rifles) and the 4th going up to 125 yards (rifles only).

 

So the Strike slugs using the Winchoke adapter and rifled choke were fantastic, and then I took that off and just fired rifled Winchester slugs through the barrel and mannnn.....even more accurate!!!!!

 

I also changed out the scope mount for another version and the flash suppressor was removed.

 

So all is well. I know it sounds ridiculous, but mannnnn.....after 34 years of marriage (and you ain't gettin' laid), making sure all your guns are in superb order gives you that added feeling of well-being - LOL

[RED333 1,025]

Congrats Ben, glad you got your S12 shooting stright and true.

I am waiting on a adatper as well, I did pick up a rifled choke for mine off ebay.

Cant wait to try mine at the range

If I can get my S12 done in a day I just might drive to NC, have family in Charlotte area.

Hint, Hint Corba.

[Marc 147]

Glad you got her straightened out. Makes me wonder if the plastic wads are coming off the Strike slugs mid-flight to cause the inaccuracy issue without the rifled choke; with the rifled choke the Strike Slugs would be spin stabilized and wouldn't need the wad for drag stabilization.