Permanently attached brake; Loctite OK?

[nhresident 19]

I've been reading the forums on this subject, but can't find an answer. For the purposes of "permanent" attachment of a brake (IE, I cut down the barrel below the 18.2'' and then attach a brake), is the red-type loctite "permanent"?

 

Thanks

[akastormi 617]

NO

[nhresident 19]

NO

 

NO, and... what can a non-welder do to accomplish permanently affixing it?

[erwos 12]

You can't. You need to weld it. JB Weld won't cut it, either.

[garnaz 215]

NO

 

NO, and... what can a non-welder do to accomplish permanently affixing it?

take to have it permanently attached

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

you can silver solder it, brownells sells silver solder paste that you put on the threads, practice on some old pipes first, you don't want to fuck it up and have an unregistered sbs

[Kylsix 2]

Can they be pinned like on an AR?

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

They can be pinned but I don't know how one would do that. Generally permanently attached means the metal is fused together...

[nhresident 19]

you can silver solder it, brownells sells silver solder paste that you put on the threads, practice on some old pipes first, you don't want to fuck it up and have an unregistered sbs

 

This is exactly the type of suggestion I was looking for. It seems you coat the threads then heat up the brake + barrel where they make contact. Not so bad! worse case is I have to bring it to a gunsmith after. Actually, worst case is being prosecuted.

[RED333 1,025]

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

Edited April 6, 2012 by RED333

[XD45 7,124]

I hope you know what you're doing if you plan to cut and thread the barrel yourself. I strongly recommend having a good gunsmith do it.

 

And of course, if he's got half a brain he won't cut the barrel shorter than 18" and just give it back to you as an illegal sbs. That's prison time for him. He'll have to attach the brake himself so it's legal before he gives it back.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

The potential 10 years in Club Fed, might put a damper on things.

[nhresident 19]

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

I hope you know what you're doing if you plan to cut and thread the barrel yourself. I strongly recommend having a good gunsmith do it.

 

And of course, if he's got half a brain he won't cut the barrel shorter than 18" and just give it back to you as an illegal sbs. That's prison time for him. He'll have to attach the brake himself so it's legal before he gives it back.

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

The potential 10 years in Club Fed, might put a damper on things.

 

Nothing gets people going like talking about shortening a barrel. Anyone have a report of one of these inadvertent SBS owners getting prosecuted?

 

Anyways, yes, I will be cutting it down on my own. I've read the tutorials and have all the parts needed. However, I may only remove an inch off my 19'' barrel.

 

FYI. The total was around $30 for the die, die holder and guide.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

YOU don't cut the barrel below 18" yourself, unless you have a 7FFL with a type 2 SOT, or NFA tax stamp in hand that allows you to do so. Otherwise cutting the barrel below 18" yourself -for any length of time, and for any purpose - is a felony with real prison time attached .

 

Once you have cut the barrel below the legal length, attaching a brake does not mitigate, or change the fact that you have created an illegal SBS. An illegal SBS which has had a brake permanently attached to bring it back to 18"(or over), remains an illegally altered firearm. Once that genie is out of the bottle - you can not put it back in.

 

I just had an in depth conversation about this with an ATF investigator - who laid all of this out in no uncertain terms.

 

This is not a DIY project. If you want to modify your shotgun by shortening the barrel below 18" to have a brake permanently attached to bring the overall barrel length to 18" or over - you need to seek the services of an SOT licensed gunsmith to have the work done lawfully.

[XD45 7,124]

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

I hope you know what you're doing if you plan to cut and thread the barrel yourself. I strongly recommend having a good gunsmith do it.

 

And of course, if he's got half a brain he won't cut the barrel shorter than 18" and just give it back to you as an illegal sbs. That's prison time for him. He'll have to attach the brake himself so it's legal before he gives it back.

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

The potential 10 years in Club Fed, might put a damper on things.

 

Nothing gets people going like talking about shortening a barrel. Anyone have a report of one of these inadvertent SBS owners getting prosecuted?

 

Anyways, yes, I will be cutting it down on my own. I've read the tutorials and have all the parts needed. However, I may only remove an inch off my 19'' barrel.

 

FYI. The total was around $30 for the die, die holder and guide.

 

You came in here asking if loctite was ok for permanently attaching a brake. Not meant as in insult, but that question leads me to believe you know very little about the laws or process.

 

And then when we give you the advise you came here seeking you get snarky.

 

You make light about the possibility of being prosecuted for an illegal sbs. Have you ever heard of Ruby Ridge? Do you know what his big crime was that gave the feds their excuse? He cut a shotgun barrel down for an undercover fed.

 

EDIT: The post above is good information. I never thought about it but it makes perfect sense. I assumed that if you removed the barrel from the receiver that you could cut it, as long as you permanently attached the brake before reattaching it to the receiver. Not that I had any plans of cutting a barrel myself. I wouldn't risk ruining my barrel or winding up with an illegal sbs.

Edited April 6, 2012 by XD45

[nhresident 19]

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

I hope you know what you're doing if you plan to cut and thread the barrel yourself. I strongly recommend having a good gunsmith do it.

 

And of course, if he's got half a brain he won't cut the barrel shorter than 18" and just give it back to you as an illegal sbs. That's prison time for him. He'll have to attach the brake himself so it's legal before he gives it back.

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

The potential 10 years in Club Fed, might put a damper on things.

 

Nothing gets people going like talking about shortening a barrel. Anyone have a report of one of these inadvertent SBS owners getting prosecuted?

 

Anyways, yes, I will be cutting it down on my own. I've read the tutorials and have all the parts needed. However, I may only remove an inch off my 19'' barrel.

 

FYI. The total was around $30 for the die, die holder and guide.

 

You came in here asking if loctite was ok for permanently attaching a brake. Not meant as in insult, but that question leads me to believe you know very little about the laws or process.

 

And then when we give you the advise you came here seeking you get snarky.

 

You make light about the possibility of being prosecuted for an illegal sbs. Have you ever heard of Ruby Ridge? Do you know what his big crime was that gave the feds their excuse? He cut a shotgun barrel down for a fed informant.

 

Snarky? I don't think so. I don't see anything about this discourse that makes me snarky. The first answer was a NO. Then subsequent peppering was "YOU WILL GO TO JAIL," "FELONY CONVICTIONS == NO GUNS," "ATF INSPECTOR WILL REPEL FROM CEILING." To that, I do make light. I'm a reasonable person, capable of making good decisions. However, I will not be brow beat into submission. All of the other threads I have read about this modification quickly descends into the same drama. And, another thing, "not meant as an insult" always means its an insult. However, none was taken, I didn't claim to know anything about the process.

 

 

YOU don't cut the barrel below 18" yourself, unless you have a 7FFL with a type 2 SOT, or NFA tax stamp in hand that allows you to do so. Otherwise cutting the barrel below 18" yourself -for any length of time, and for any purpose - is a felony with real prison time attached .

 

Once you have cut the barrel below the legal length, attaching a brake does not mitigate, or change the fact that you have created an illegal SBS. An illegal SBS which has had a brake permanently attached to bring it back to 18" over, remains an illegally altered firearm. Once that genie is out of the bottle - you can not put it back in.

 

I just had an in depth conversation about this with an ATF investigator - who laid all of this out in no uncertain terms.

 

This is not a DIY project. If you want to modify your shotgun by shortening the barrel below 18" to have a brake permanently attached to bring the overall barrel length to 18" or over - you need to seek the services of an SOT licensed gunsmith to have the work done lawfully.

 

Thank you Lone Star, I find your response reasonable and informative. I will take that into consideration before I do anything potentially illegal.

Edited April 6, 2012 by nhresident

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

I hope you know what you're doing if you plan to cut and thread the barrel yourself. I strongly recommend having a good gunsmith do it.

 

And of course, if he's got half a brain he won't cut the barrel shorter than 18" and just give it back to you as an illegal sbs. That's prison time for him. He'll have to attach the brake himself so it's legal before he gives it back.

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

The potential 10 years in Club Fed, might put a damper on things.

 

Nothing gets people going like talking about shortening a barrel. Anyone have a report of one of these inadvertent SBS owners getting prosecuted?

 

Anyways, yes, I will be cutting it down on my own. I've read the tutorials and have all the parts needed. However, I may only remove an inch off my 19'' barrel.

 

FYI. The total was around $30 for the die, die holder and guide.

 

You came in here asking if loctite was ok for permanently attaching a brake. Not meant as in insult, but that question leads me to believe you know very little about the laws or process.

 

And then when we give you the advise you came here seeking you get snarky.

 

You make light about the possibility of being prosecuted for an illegal sbs. Have you ever heard of Ruby Ridge? Do you know what his big crime was that gave the feds their excuse? He cut a shotgun barrel down for an undercover fed.

 

EDIT: The post above is good information. I never thought about it but it makes perfect sense. I assumed that if you removed the barrel from the receiver that you could cut it, as long as you permanently attached the brake before reattaching it to the receiver. Not that I had any plans of cutting a barrel myself. I wouldn't risk ruining my barrel or winding up with an illegal sbs.

kinda puts things in perspective don't it.

 

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

"I assumed that if you removed the barrel from the receiver that you could cut it, as long as you permanently attached the brake before reattaching it to the receiver. Not that I had any plans of cutting a barrel myself. I wouldn't risk ruining my barrel or winding up with an illegal sbs. "

 

Unfortunately, the notion that an unlicensed person can pull the barrel and cut it is another "conventional wisdom" that can get a well intentioned gun owner into "Club Fed". This was also covered by the ATF Investigator. He said, and I quote "If we walk in and the barrel has been cut below 18", it doesn't matter if its out of the gun or not. He (the gunowner) will be taken out in handcuffs".

[nhresident 19]

"I assumed that if you removed the barrel from the receiver that you could cut it, as long as you permanently attached the brake before reattaching it to the receiver. Not that I had any plans of cutting a barrel myself. I wouldn't risk ruining my barrel or winding up with an illegal sbs. "

 

Unfortunately, the notion that an unlicensed person can pull the barrel and cut it is another "conventional wisdom" that can get a well intentioned gun owner into "Club Fed". This was also covered by the ATF Investigator. He said, and I quote "If we walk in an the barrel has been cut below 18", it doesn't matter if its out of the gun or not. He (the gunowner) will be taken out in handcuffs".

 

I can respect adhering to the law as the punishments for this offense are stiff. However, if you Lone Star sell a short barrel + perm attached brake, the buyer of that weapon is under zero obligation to explain that to the ATF. If you have affixed the brake on to the end, its now a 18''+ inch barrel. I'm not advising that anyone brake (Freudian slip) the law, however, its not fair to say that even, someone who had it legally done, now has the burden to show he had it done legally.

Edited April 6, 2012 by nhresident

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

not this bullshit again

[gunfun 3,931]

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

I hope you know what you're doing if you plan to cut and thread the barrel yourself. I strongly recommend having a good gunsmith do it.

 

And of course, if he's got half a brain he won't cut the barrel shorter than 18" and just give it back to you as an illegal sbs. That's prison time for him. He'll have to attach the brake himself so it's legal before he gives it back.

Nope, worst case is not beaing able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

The potential 10 years in Club Fed, might put a damper on things.

 

Nothing gets people going like talking about shortening a barrel. Anyone have a report of one of these inadvertent SBS owners getting prosecuted?

 

Anyways, yes, I will be cutting it down on my own. I've read the tutorials and have all the parts needed. However, I may only remove an inch off my 19'' barrel.

 

FYI. The total was around $30 for the die, die holder and guide.

 

I saw several new files a week for people getting caught with sawed offs at my old job. These were people who made no effort to be anything like legal. Most of them were gang bangers and were simply charged with felon-in-possession-of-a-firearm. I can think of one guy who was charged with "possession of an illegal weapon." he had no record and owned a collection of houses that were farming pot. Other people did all the dirty work, but he had a few home made silencers, was apparently trying to make some AKs and sks full auto, and had some sawed offs and pipe bombs in the otherwise clean house he lived in.

 

PS (I didn't work on that guys file, I am citing the information in the prosecutor and cops press releases, so I am keeping clear of ethics conflicts) It was a big deal, because a few of my coworkers new his mom.

[XD45 7,124]

"I assumed that if you removed the barrel from the receiver that you could cut it, as long as you permanently attached the brake before reattaching it to the receiver. Not that I had any plans of cutting a barrel myself. I wouldn't risk ruining my barrel or winding up with an illegal sbs. "

 

Unfortunately, the notion that an unlicensed person can pull the barrel and cut it is another "conventional wisdom" that can get a well intentioned gun owner into "Club Fed". This was also covered by the ATF Investigator. He said, and I quote "If we walk in an the barrel has been cut below 18", it doesn't matter if its out of the gun or not. He (the gunowner) will be taken out in handcuffs".

 

I can respect adhering to the law as the punishments for this offense are stiff. However, if you Lone Star sell a short barrel + perm attached brake, the buyer of that weapon is under zero obligation to explain that to the ATF. If you have affixed the brake on to the end, its now a 18''+ inch barrel. I'm not advising that anyone brake (Freudian slip) the law, however, its not fair to say that even, someone who had it legally done, now has the burden to show he had it done legally.

 

So you're going to stand there (figuratively) and argue with someone who does this for a living.

 

Now that you have your answer (whether you choose to believe it, or act on it), what is your point? Is it that you just have to have the last word?

 

If you are so certain of your legal knowledge than I don't see why you bothered to ask the uninformed rabble in this forum anything.

 

Last Words.

 

Well Played Sir.

 

I make my response here in order not to deprive Direct_ecneulfnI of his rightfully claimed Last Words.

Edited April 6, 2012 by XD45

[nhresident 19]

"I assumed that if you removed the barrel from the receiver that you could cut it, as long as you permanently attached the brake before reattaching it to the receiver. Not that I had any plans of cutting a barrel myself. I wouldn't risk ruining my barrel or winding up with an illegal sbs. "

 

Unfortunately, the notion that an unlicensed person can pull the barrel and cut it is another "conventional wisdom" that can get a well intentioned gun owner into "Club Fed". This was also covered by the ATF Investigator. He said, and I quote "If we walk in an the barrel has been cut below 18", it doesn't matter if its out of the gun or not. He (the gunowner) will be taken out in handcuffs".

 

I can respect adhering to the law as the punishments for this offense are stiff. However, if you Lone Star sell a short barrel + perm attached brake, the buyer of that weapon is under zero obligation to explain that to the ATF. If you have affixed the brake on to the end, its now a 18''+ inch barrel. I'm not advising that anyone brake (Freudian slip) the law, however, its not fair to say that even, someone who had it legally done, now has the burden to show he had it done legally.

 

So you're going to stand there (figuratively) and argue with someone who does this for a living.

 

Now that you have your answer (whether you choose to believe it, or act on it), what is your point? Is it that you just have to have the last word?

 

If you are so certain of your legal knowledge than I don't see why you bothered to ask the uninformed rabble in this forum anything.

 

I'm sorry, is dissent not allowed? Am I suppose to not question a conclusion that doesn't stand up to some scrutiny? All of his points were valid, up to the point where hes states that ANY previously cut shotgun barrel (below 18'' inches) puts a burden (i.e.presumptively illegal) on his owner to legally account for how the work was done. Go ahead a cite a statute that does that.

 

Did you know this is how adults communicate? One asks a question, the other responds. Then, maybe the answer leads to further questions and statements. Did you maybe consider that my legal experience is pretty advanced, and now I'm simply illustrating a point?

 

We're engaged in a conversation and all you've done is troll. Go fly a kite.

Edited April 6, 2012 by nhresident

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I find myself wondering how someone with advanced legal knowledge shows up on a gun forum, asking if a muzzle brake can be permanently attached with red Loctite. Of course, the answer is "no". Everything else in this discussion has been covered ad-nauseum in other threads. The search function is your friend.

 

Here's one to get you up to speed.

 

http://forum.saiga-1...own-the-barrel/

[nhresident 19]

I find myself wondering how someone with advanced legal knowledge shows up on a gun forum, asking if a muzzle brake can be permanently attached with red Locktite. Of course, the answer is "no". Everything else in this discussion has be covered ad-nauseum in other threads. The search function is your friend.

 

Here's one to get you up to speed.

 

http://forum.saiga-1...own-the-barrel/

 

Why is the default to go to insults? Excellent display of professionalism Mr. Vendor.

 

How hard is to fathom someone who might be inexperienced with guns, but experienced in law? I searched for the answer to my question and didn't find it. Go ahead and give me a link to where someone asked if loctite was sufficient. My original question was about loctite and everyone chimed in - I had a right to respond and ask questions. Most, not all, were willing to give an answer and help me to be better informed. This may be readily apparent to you, but I am just learning the ins and outs. You had a conversation with the ATF, excellent, you are doing us all a favor by sharing. However, that doesn't preclude me from challenging the conclusions you reached from that conversation. Moreover, my only challenge was your statement about a gun remaining illegal despite having a brake permanently affixed. That claim is a pretty substantial one. Think about the number of purchasers who bought a shortened (yet corrected) shotgun who may now believe they can face criminal prosecution if they can't account for who originally did the work. If that is the case, then it needs to be shown so other people understand the gravity of the situation.

 

I'm done on this thread, and in the words of the last guy, the last word is whomever wants it.

[psl sniper 963]

myself like mr GunFun work in corrections. part of my job is reviewing inmate files. and i can guarantee you people can and do get prosecuted for doing exactly what your talking about. mike (lonestar arms) is a liscenced NFA manufacturer who has regular audits by the ATF. his entire operation is based on knowing the laws regarding NFA weapons. if he tells something in regards to this you may want to listen.

 

save yourself some headache and get it done professionally . my saiga 12 has a 14 inch barrel with a permanantly attached brake making total length 18 1/2". it was done by a professional smith. and i have the added benifet of mine being there, as the atf was explaining their stance on the matter with mike.

 

from what i understand they where quite impressed with mine .

Edited April 6, 2012 by Pusca Semiautomata Luneta

[Direct_ecneulfnI 5]

Last Words.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Direct_ecneulfnI

[dayofruin 425]

Without me calling around or sending a ton of emails, has anyone posting here had this done? How much did it cost you? I'm interested in having my barrel chopped and my Krebs muzzled device permafixed to be just over 18".

[psl sniper 963]

Without me calling around or sending a ton of emails, has anyone posting here had this done? How much did it cost you? I'm interested in having my barrel chopped and my Krebs muzzled device permafixed to be just over 18".

 

like mine?

[dayofruin 425]

Without me calling around or sending a ton of emails, has anyone posting here had this done? How much did it cost you? I'm interested in having my barrel chopped and my Krebs muzzled device permafixed to be just over 18".

 

like mine?

Yup. Same deal.