Permanently attached brake; Loctite OK?

[bushpilot47 14]

I must say this stuff is interesting. I have two Converted S-12's that I did a few weeks back and love them. I was going to cut the barrel on one of them and WELD a Poly Choke on to it. After reading all these bull shit with the fed's I returned the die, die handing and starting tool. I still have the Poly Choke. Never will use it though. Make the gun to long to conveniently carry.

 

So what's the deal if you have a Certified gun smith do the work. Is the receiver stamped and you get a carry card or what?

[XD45 7,124]

 

 

So what's the deal if you have a Certified gun smith do the work. Is the receiver stamped and you get a carry card or what?

 

Don't say that too loud. The batfuckers will get ideas...

[6500rpm 670]

What is the typical wait time to get a written response from the Tech Branch?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

They're pretty busy over there. Just a guess, but It will probably take a while to get a response.

[VladTepes 160]

Thank you for clarifying that . Would you be kind enough to post the complete letter?

 

I find the notion of not being legally allowed to work on your own gun appalling..

sure if you cut your barrel down to 10in and then put it away in your safe.. and come in contact with LEO and they take notice.. you are likely screwed...

 

but if you are working on your gun.. there has to be a little bit of reason understood..

if what you are saying is true.. it would be impossible to do something as simple as change out a stock on a gun that netted "too short of a length".. if what you are saying is true an AR "lower" would be a SBR since the lower is the part that is considered a firearm..

 

obviously you can not put a pistol upper on an AR lower and just leave it there and use the excuse you are "working on it" but for something like a Saiga 12.. if the gun is apart.. in pieces.. while being worked on.. the length of the barrel during that process should be moot.. just as the OAL of a gun is moot while changing the stock..

[dolomite_supafly 56]

I wrote tech branch last year and it took about 2 months to get a response. And that time frame is the same for the previous letters I have written. Hopefully tech branch letters haven't seen the same slow down as the NFA approvals.

 

I may call tomorrow as I had planned on shortening the barrel then permanently attaching a flash hider myself. I haven't done it yet and have a smith that will do it for cheap but I like to do the work myself.

 

Dolomite

[bushpilot47 14]

I wrote tech branch last year and it took about 2 months to get a response. And that time frame is the same for the previous letters I have written. Hopefully tech branch letters haven't seen the same slow down as the NFA approvals.

 

I may call tomorrow as I had planned on shortening the barrel then permanently attaching a flash hider myself. I haven't done it yet and have a smith that will do it for cheap but I like to do the work myself.

 

Dolomite

 

My questions has gone unanswered. What proof do you get when you do the above red underlined.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

I wrote tech branch last year and it took about 2 months to get a response. And that time frame is the same for the previous letters I have written. Hopefully tech branch letters haven't seen the same slow down as the NFA approvals.

 

I may call tomorrow as I had planned on shortening the barrel then permanently attaching a flash hider myself. I haven't done it yet and have a smith that will do it for cheap but I like to do the work myself.

 

Dolomite

 

My questions has gone unanswered. What proof do you get when you do the above red underlined.

A paper recipt.

[psl sniper 963]

I wrote tech branch last year and it took about 2 months to get a response. And that time frame is the same for the previous letters I have written. Hopefully tech branch letters haven't seen the same slow down as the NFA approvals.

 

I may call tomorrow as I had planned on shortening the barrel then permanently attaching a flash hider myself. I haven't done it yet and have a smith that will do it for cheap but I like to do the work myself.

 

Dolomite

 

My questions has gone unanswered. What proof do you get when you do the above red underlined.

also will do the same transfer form as when you first purchased the firearm. then the smith who did the work will have it on file that the firearm was in their

possession while said work was being done.

[bushpilot47 14]

I wrote tech branch last year and it took about 2 months to get a response. And that time frame is the same for the previous letters I have written. Hopefully tech branch letters haven't seen the same slow down as the NFA approvals.

 

I may call tomorrow as I had planned on shortening the barrel then permanently attaching a flash hider myself. I haven't done it yet and have a smith that will do it for cheap but I like to do the work myself.

 

Dolomite

 

My questions has gone unanswered. What proof do you get when you do the above red underlined.

also will do the same transfer form as when you first purchased the firearm. then the smith who did the work will have it on file that the firearm was in their

possession while said work was being done.

 

 

OK! Thanks for the reply.

[XD45 7,124]

I find the notion of not being legally allowed to work on your own gun appalling..

sure if you cut your barrel down to 10in and then put it away in your safe.. and come in contact with LEO and they take notice.. you are likely screwed...

 

but if you are working on your gun.. there has to be a little bit of reason understood..

if what you are saying is true.. it would be impossible to do something as simple as change out a stock on a gun that netted "too short of a length".. if what you are saying is true an AR "lower" would be a SBR since the lower is the part that is considered a firearm..

 

obviously you can not put a pistol upper on an AR lower and just leave it there and use the excuse you are "working on it" but for something like a Saiga 12.. if the gun is apart.. in pieces.. while being worked on.. the length of the barrel during that process should be moot.. just as the OAL of a gun is moot while changing the stock..

 

Lone Star said before that intent is the key. Obviously not. If you cut your barrel below the arbitrary 18" with the INTENT of attaching a permanent brake, and then DO attach a permanent brake you have still committed a sin in the eyes god (the atf).

[nhresident 19]

This thread has lived so long that the porn spammers have taken notice of it. Lets wait for someone to post an updated letter with the specific questions we need answered.

 

I did some research and I couldn't find a federal (or state) case where someone was tried for cutting their own barrel and then attaching a brake device. That doesn't mean much though, considering most felony charges are plead out.

[6500rpm 670]

That was my point, that if you were looking at a time frame in terms of a few months for a reply and insistant on doing your own work, simply write the Tech Branch and if "you" get approval to proceede then that's that for "you". I see no reason for instant gratification if you can get a written green light, or possibly red light-shit, I've waited for parts alone for several weeks to months. I also give a lot of weight to statements from Michael by the reputation he's earned.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

That was my point, that if you were looking at a time frame in terms of a few months for a reply and insistant on doing your own work, simply write the Tech Branch and if "you" get approval to proceede then that's that for "you". I see no reason for instant gratification if you can get a written green light, or possibly red light-shit, I've waited for parts alone for several weeks to months. I also give a lot of weight to statements from Michael by the reputation he's earned.

So basicly you gotta kiss the God Fathers' ring.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Or be like me, guess where $200 of this next bonus is going...

[VladTepes 160]

If you cut your barrel below the arbitrary 18" with the INTENT of attaching a permanent brake, and then DO attach a permanent brake you have still committed a sin in the eyes god (the atf).

 

because he says so?

if that were the case..

TECHNICALLY swapping barrels on an AR15 would be illegal.. because the rifle somewhere in the middle would be too short..

TECHNICALLY swapping stocks on SOME shotguns would be illegal because in the middle it would be too short..

 

actually to take it a step further..

if the barrel MUST ALWAYS be 18in + to avoid having the gun being "sbr"

then rifle conversions would also be illegal.. because at the point when the stock is off the gun.. if you cut the tang.. the gun that is in front of you (incomplete) is technically a hair too short.. it would by his definition for that moment be an illegal SBR...

which is absurd..

 

there is no way that if you break the gun down.. cut the barrel and weld on a brake in one sitting you are breaking the law..if you really want to be neurotic about it.. drop the FCG out as you do the work.. strip it down.. at that point while the barrel may still be in the receiver it is not a working firearm..

 

there is no doubt an established qualified gun smith will do a good job..

but to imply they are the ONLY individuals granted the right to do so.. I disagree..

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Gray area, very seldom will you run into overall length issues with a rifle length barrel or shotgun length barrel with no buttstock because the receiver normally takes up enough room (especially with Saigas) to meet overall length requirements without a butt-stock...

 

But...

 

If you remove the butt-stock from a "shotgun" then technically you have just "remade" the weapon not to fire from the shoulder so "technically" it's no longer a shotgun...

 

A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC

 

And THAT opens up a whole NEW can of worms altogether!!!

[psl sniper 963]

i love this thread. lol.

[VladTepes 160]

Gray area, very seldom will you run into overall length issues with a rifle length barrel or shotgun length barrel with no buttstock because the receiver normally takes up enough room (especially with Saigas) to meet overall length requirements without a butt-stock...

 

But...

 

If you remove the butt-stock from a "shotgun" then technically you have just "remade" the weapon not to fire from the shoulder so "technically" it's no longer a shotgun...

 

A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC

 

And THAT opens up a whole NEW can of worms altogether!!!

 

removing a stock and putting it back on during a repair or modification is not the same as creating a new firearm.. and that is the point..

the process to repair or modify is a process.. I take the hood off my car sometimes to work on it.. to get to the engine easier... I am not going to drive around like that.. a cop can not come give me a ticket because at that moment the hood is off my car..

 

if you took the stock off the shotgun.. and left it off loaded it up.. threw it in the trunk.. then yeah.. MAYBE issues?

but I am willing to bet no one ever saw a day in court because they had an XXin barrel shotgun + Xin muzzle device that was 18+ inches total because at some point during the build it was sub 18in..

 

also.. a saiga rifle.. without rear tang (ace stock).. is the SLIGHTEST bit too short overall length without a stock..

[MT Predator 2,294]

I don't get the whole short barrel out of the receiver, you are going to jail thing just because of INTENT, especially if you are permanently affixing a muzzle device to bring it back to legal length before reinstalling the barrel which isn't simple like an 870 or Mossberg. Does that mean if someone has a Draco pistol, pignose, receiver extension, and a stock, they can go to jail for INTENT on building an illegal SBR? I could do that job way quicker than the S-12 job. They say the same thing about owning ARs and having a SBR upper laying around. I'd be curious to see how many different replies would come back from the Tech Branch on this S-12 scenerio as TECHNICALLY, it seems every AK and AR builder breaks the law at some point in the project due to overall length issues .

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

By the intent logic, mere possesion of an AR pistol upper would constitute intent to build an SBR. Say you had a complete AR upper lower,and ordered a pistol upper and didnt have a pistol lower present. Or simply possesing a AMD65KIT. It just doesnt add up.

[nhresident 19]

I hate to say it, but the regulations promulgated by the ATF (see my previous post) have no mention of intent. Being in possession of an SBS is a strict liability offense. In strict liability terms, your mind state DOES NOT MATTER. For example, take the crime of rape. Rape has no "intent" component because rape is rape. For some interesting bed time reading google "mens rea" for more on that subject. A statute absent a mens rea term is naturally a strict liability offense,

 

Go ahead and read the statute:

26 USC § 5845

 

Notice that this statute considers mere possession to be enough to be in violation of the statute? Your mind state DOES NOT MATTER.

 

Now, the issue is how do you square this extremely harsh, strict liability offense, with the letter posted by Bonesteel? Well, that is a matter of administrative law. Congress has left it to the ATF to decide the particulars of how a citizen can comply (stamp) and the fees associated. That letter is an official deceleration from the ATF (assuming authenticity) and it clearly does not limit the creation of an SBS temporarily; rather, it states that the barrel must be corrected ASAP. The logical question is how soon is "expeditiously"? That is a standard that would be examined by a court to determine if the circumstances demonstrate that you were doing everything reasonable in your power to return the barrel to the legal length. Without case law, that terms meetings nothing to nobody. Someone would have to be the test case for how far you could push it. However, I will say this. If the ATF execute a search warrant on your pot farm and come across a half-completed SBS, you're fucked. Expeditiously to me, would mean that you would have to be in the middle of heating up the silver solder as they busted in. But that's just my 2c.

 

Getting back to reality. I've reviewed the laws and can't find a single shred of residual taint on a weapon if someone did a non-licensed conversion. If the ATF broke down your door and found a perm attached muzzle on your otherwise SBS, there is nothing further to investigate. Now, if you're making a business of cutting them down and they find you have an illegal gunsmithing operation in your house - that's a different charge.

 

In the following weeks I will be writing a letter to the ATF to make sure I'm on solid ground. Then, by the time i get a response my stamp will be in (maybe) and I'll have two FU's to show the ATF when my neighbors eventually turn me in.

[Makc 64]

I cannot believe I have finally gotten to the bottom of the 3 page of this "pouring water from one glass to another" conversation…

Hard to believe it all started from "Loctite OK?"

 

My personal take on this is very simple: "I encourage one to listen to Mike and utilize services of a licensed gunsmith, or wait until you have a letter from ATF, addressed to YOU, stating that you (an individual without any kind of a license) are allowed to perform this task".

 

As KGB agents in Russia used to say: "Write the letter! More paperwork - cleaner ass!!!"

 

Every situation is different, just like every ATF agent is different, just like every Judge's level of leniency to certain aspects is a bit different - if you like your life the way it is, do not bet it on the divinations in someone else's views and opinions.

[jackface 8]

super glue? lol

[JefFamous 6]

Cant believe that took 3 whole pages. If you haven't got a good laugh or learned the answer to lingering question by now in the "Loctite OK?" thread you arnt going too.

[nhresident 19]

Cant believe that took 3 whole pages. If you haven't got a good laugh or learned the answer to lingering question by now in the "Loctite OK?" thread you arnt going too.

 

I didn't realize I was creating an infamous thread at the time. We're all a bit wiser now.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

like mine?

 

Meh. S'ok. Top-notch work, obviously, but your choices of parts/accessories are.. sub-optimal..

 

Here's mine:

 

 

 

really? i dunno. mike picked the parts. i didnt get to see the final product until after the fact. but

 

the adjustable magpul stock is perfect for myself and anyone else who wants to shoot it. (like the wifey) .

having tried out the hk sights and the krebs sights, i can honestly say i prefer the krebs , (way easy to get a fast sight picture)

 

other than that whats to compare?

 

 

The ease of mounting an optic. Little red dots like this Aimpoint, (perfect for the S-12 imo), comfortably co-witness with the H&K irons. That's not really an option with the Krebs...

 

 

 

...p.s. im fully aware that your busting my chops. welcome back man!

 

Thanks.

Edited April 11, 2012 by post-apocalyptic

[RoughRider666 47]