In the AK vs. AR Comparisons...

[DogMan 2,343]

In an effort to support my point-of-view that an AK is the preferred weapon of choice in urban environments, I did several "Image" searches in Google. I searched for Special Forces in Iraq, Special Forces in Afghanistan, Delta Force in Iraq, Mercenaries in Iraq, Blackwater in Iraq, etc. What I expected to see where big, burly guys carrying AKs one-handed with a solo-sling arrangement. What I found was something entirely different. Almost without exception, through hundreds of pics, the type of US forces who can choose any weapon they want... were carrying some variant of the AR.

 

Based upon that and the excellent information many of you provided, above, I'm going to have to rethink taking any particular stance in this debate.

First, I would rethink the statement...."can choose any weapon they want". I highly doubt that each individual soldier can pick and choose any weapon they want, aside from what they procure on the battlefield out of necessity, nor would that be a good idea due to cross-training issues, ammunition supply, being mistaken for the enemy due to the different report of the weapon, etc ,etc. Yeah yeah, I know all about it happening in Vietnam and other theaters. The fact is, it's not a very common practice. I know there are different units that can choose to go in another direction (as a group) but no US forces have ever or will ever officially adopt an AK based weapon for political and other reasons, and the fact that you don't see a lot of photos of our guys carrying AKs means almost nothing. Edited April 8, 2012 by DogMan

[m1lk 26]

usually when you say ak vs. ar, people automatically think 7.62x39 vs. 5.56 because of vietnam. and this is where the argument becomes flawed.

 

should be ak74 vs. ar-15 since the 5.45 was made in response to the 5.56

you want to compare the 47 to something, compare it to the m1 carbine.

 

AK wins this debate though, reason for the innacuracy rep is because of quality control from the factory: canted sights, twisted receivers, etc. now if someone took the time to unfuck this shit, you still wont hit the wings off a fly but for practicality and reliability youve got something thatll give these $2000+ short-stroke-AR-wannabe-AK a run for its money.

 

bolt forward assist vs. heavy bolt carrier moving forward

modularity vs. side optic mount + practice

accuracy vs. practice

ergonomics vs. dont be a pussy

 

for basic operation, the ak is so simple a child can use one...and they do.

 

to actually run one to its full potential, the ak will require a bit more technique and dancing.

 

as for the AR, yeah it looks cool, its accurate, and very convenient to use, but doesnt mean a lick of shit if it doesnt shoot now does it

Edited April 8, 2012 by m1lk

[Dudethebagman 222]

accuracy vs. practice

ergonomics vs. dont be a pussy

 

Heh.

 

Additionally, people don't appreciate that AKs have damn near as many aftermarket stock, grip, forearm, and sight options as ARs do these days. You can get an AR with a piston, and you can get an AK magwell that accepts AR mags.

 

And the accuracy differences between a likely 1-3 MOA AR 15 vs. 2-3 MOA AK 74 are really pretty moot. Crap ammo the gun hates with crappy sights and a crappy shooter will produce crappy groups. Many people use optics anyway, so the sights aren't all that relevant either.

 

ARs can weigh a little less (although this is usually negated with accessories) and have a LRBHO. Other than the ease and frequency of replacing parts and the price differences, that's about it.

 

In conclusion, pick your side and rally zealously for your cause.

[DrDyno 12]

http://www.cleveland...ight_us_we.html

 

nuff said.

 

For those who favor the AR, this article is really (and, unfortunately) worth the read!

[thehun 20]

http://www.cleveland...ight_us_we.html

 

nuff said.

 

For those who favor the AR, this article is really (and, unfortunately) worth the read!

 

do YOU own an AR platform? Probably not so you have no reason to judge it. I own both so I know the pro's and con's of both...i've logged over 8000 rounds through both of them combine...neither has failed me and both have their purpose. Like I said...ARs with cheap internals pay the ultimate price for giving ARs bad names...honestly...I trust my life with both of my rifles

Edited April 9, 2012 by thehun

[hutchsaiga 93]

And jus becuase you're firing steel case doesn't mean you need to douche an ar after every range session. Just throw a little more lube in it and keep on trucking.

 

It was my understanding that some, maybe most, AR's simply won't digest steel case ammo. I know quite a few have warranties that become void if you use this bastard, primitive ammo. How they could prove that is beyond me.

 

If your AR won't run steel case it's not becuase the case is steel it's becuase the ammo is normally underpowered and will lead to short stroking and weak extraction on guns that ALREADY have problems.(loose improperly staked gas key,worn gas rings,worn extractor springs, improper weight buffer, etc)

 

now if you have a quality AR with mil spec bolt and extractor and torqued and staked gas key with the proper weight buffer for your gas system they eat steel case the same as an AK.

 

So many misconceptions of the AR platform and guns in general. I love my AKs just as much as you guys. But for some reason so many people think the AR is a jammomatic toy. Which it definetly is NOT(non quality rifles aside(which include bushmaster,stag,and RRA) and so many think the AK is indestructible which it again is definetly not.

 

And people also drastically misjudge 556 ammo and ballistics. Let's not ride the short bus here and say that it causes similar wound characteristic to 22mag when it most definetly does not. Especially when you have a rifle with a 1 in 7 barrel and fire heavier weight(70+ grain) hunting rounds. Both x39 and 556 are proven man stoppers and very effective rounds but 556 has the option for more bullet weights and ballistic function and effectiveness.

 

Here's damage inflictedp with simple, normal, 55gr m193 ammo. Both GSWs are a single round of m193

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=84194&hilit=look+like+a+poodle

 

WARNING : THERE ARE PICTURES ON THIS LINK OF GUNSHOT WOUNDS INFLECTED ON HUMAN BEINGS. NOT SUITABLE FOR SOME

 

[hutchsaiga 93]

 

 

Like I said...ARs with cheap internals pay the ultimate price for giving ARs bad names...honestly...I trust my life with both of my rifles

 

True statement. True statement. A quality bolt carrier and bolt mean everything. BCM, DD , PSA, and many others MPI test every single bolt and carrier they make and are bet your life dependable parts. It has been decided that quality of lower does not matter(someone has even made a lower out of wood and rifle functioned fine) as long as a quality lower parts(buffer,tube, and spring and trigger group) are used in conjunction with a quality bolt and carrier(see brands listed above)

 

Another reason why I have some serious love for my AR is I have stacks of parts and can completely rebuild it in a matter of minutes. Can't seem to find a spare bolt and carrier for my saiga

Edited April 9, 2012 by hutchsaiga

[thehun 20]

Yup and when it comes to these pointless debates I just laugh laugh laugh..because really a weapon is only as good as the one pulling the trigger. My AR and AK feeds anything from cheapy steel cased to expensive brass...

[DrDyno 12]

Hutchsaiga gave the first response to this thread with "Please god not this again." And, five posts later I believe he has made as good an argument as can be made for the AR platform. Thehun has offered several posts, and he, too has made an excellent argument for the AR. However, if you take their words to heart, they both support my original premise: the AK platform is the more durable and reliable of the two.

 

Hutchsaiga and thehun inform us, unequivocally, that with quality parts, the AR is as reliable as the AK. Interestingly, no one has had to make the same argument for the AK... because, the AK will offer up defensive fire without the requirement of hand picked parts. It just works! So does the AR... with the right parts.

[preparehandbook 326]

Posting pictures of the results of a 5.56 that performed correctly does not negate the lack of performance when it does not.

 

Please note that these wounds were created at very close range "across the street"

 

I often hear 5.56 touted as a long range round, yet it's performance drops off pretty badly at longer ranges and this was one of the problems the Australian military has seen.

 

"Let's not ride the short bus here and say that it causes similar wound characteristic to 22mag when it most definetly does not".... That comparison was made my the Australian military after their analysis, and I'm sure you do not have anywhere near the experience that the doctors and ballisticians of the Australian military do. It is helpful to understand that since Australia adopted horrific gun restrictions one of the few remaining common rounds is.... wait for it.... 22 mag. So Australia has seen a disproportionate number of wounds from this caliber.

 

The afformentioned article is fairly commonly available on the web. I have the link to the complete Australian report somewhere, it has a lot of neat statistics. I will try to dig it up.

[preparehandbook 326]

http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2009/10/in_2008_afghan_firefight_us_we.html

 

So.... once your AR has locked up and it has been rendered into a $1200 club, what is the effective range?

 

I'm guessing I could throw one a good 20 feet, but accuracy would be somewhere near 80 MOA.

 

In just this one incident 9 US soldiers are never coming home thanks to this overly delicate boutique gun.

 

My father had friends who died in Vietnam thanks to the AR letting them down in combat and I have a buddy who died in Afghanistan because his immaculately maintained and cleaned AR stopped running.

 

How many soldiers never made it home when their AK failed to function?

[hutchsaiga 93]

Hutchsaiga gave the first response to this thread with "Please god not this again." And, five posts later I believe he has made as good an argument as can be made for the AR platform. Thehun has offered several posts, and he, too has made an excellent argument for the AR. However, if you take their words to heart, they both support my original premise: the AK platform is the more durable and reliable of the two.

 

Hutchsaiga and thehun inform us, unequivocally, that with quality parts, the AR is as reliable as the AK. Interestingly, no one has had to make the same argument for the AK... because, the AK will offer up defensive fire without the requirement of hand picked parts. It just works! So does the AR... with the right parts.

 

I never once said an AR is more durable or reliable than AK. Because I don't believe it to be. BUT the internet BS about ARs is just hilarious to me, how little "gun guys" even know about firearms. They go out and just buy any AR, throw a bunch of UTG foreends and grips on it, run it bone dry, then themselves and everyone at the range with them spouts off how "ARs don't run steel case ammo"

 

each platform has certain quirks. ARs like

To be run wet, certain guns will like certain weight buffers, there are a bunch of non mil spec parts out there, yada yada yada

 

AK's are insanely over gassed by design, receiver flats have been bent incorrectly by certain manufacturers, sights frequently have some to a shit ton of cant, manipulation of the weapon is more time consuming, heavy by design, Etc etc etc

 

Like I said and will again for last time. Both are battle proven. Man killing machines. This is not disputable.

 

Now. That said. My ideal rifle is the perfect cross between the two. A Korean daewoo k2(ar100 is civilian model) I just located one and will be purchasing soon

[hutchsaiga 93]

 

How many soldiers never made it home when their AK failed to function?

 

Move to Africa. I'm sure you'll find plenty of examples

 

This is exactly what I mentioned before. This one Tract mind thinking that the AK is completely unstoppable is just fucking stupid. they are both machines. Both capable of failure and both have failed at desperate times in combat. Guess what, plenty of soldiers have also broken ka-bars and torn boots in desperate times. It's kind of understood that soldiers are hard on shit.

 

Now my personal belief is both rifles are worthless in the hands of an untrained individual. And the only people that really argue that one system is that much better than the other shoots from a bench and then cries when their rifle gets a little scratch in the finish. Someone that runs both rifles hard. Will aprreciate each design for the individual benifits it offers.

 

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Lately, I've been thinking about putting together an AR with what I think are the proper specs for a 5.56x45 rifle; most importantly, an upper with a 1:7 twist 5.56-chambered, chrome-lined, 20", gov't profile barrel.

 

A CMMG upper with those specs on a custom-engraved, (with a very appropriate family symbol), Del-Ton lower would be one sweet rifle.

 

As much as I love AKs, I would like a proper AR, (as described above), as well.

 

All that said... if I see zombies on the lawn, I'm grabbing my SGL21, (over all my other firearms), and going to work.

Edited April 9, 2012 by post-apocalyptic

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Can't seem to find a spare bolt and carrier for my saiga

 

Those are often tough to come by, true. The upside is that almost no one will ever need a spare bolt or carrier for any Saiga weapon, (rifle or shotgun). Still, those who plan ahead might buy a few "spare" sporter rifles and shotguns, if only for the critical internal parts.

 

Certain AR parts have a very definite, imo low rnd-count "expiration date". Modern Kalashnikov pattern firearms, (all Saigas fall into this category), with only the most basic maintenence, are dependable for a couple generations.

[thehun 20]

Lately, I've been thinking about putting together an AR with what I think are the proper specs for a 5.56x45 rifle; most importantly, an upper with a 1:7 twist 5.56-chambered, chrome-lined, 20", gov't profile barrel.

 

A CMMG upper with those specs on a custom-engraved, (with a very appropriate family symbol), Del-Ton lower would be one sweet rifle.

 

As much as I love AKs, I would like a proper AR, (as described above), as well.

 

All that said... if I see zombies on the lawn, I'm grabbing my SGL21, (over all my other firearms), and going to work.

 

Are you going to be shooting 70+ grain bullets out of that 20" 1-7 twist barrel? Just a suggestion...most of your ready available rounds are under 1-9 twist....1-7 if you shoot under 65grain rounds....might not be good for accuracy...just a little tid bit for ya

[canoecanoe 63]

Like I said...ARs with cheap internals pay the ultimate price for giving ARs bad names...honestly...I trust my life with both of my rifles

 

True statement. True statement. A quality bolt carrier and bolt mean everything. BCM, DD , PSA, and many others MPI test every single bolt and carrier they make and are bet your life dependable parts. It has been decided that quality of lower does not matter(someone has even made a lower out of wood and rifle functioned fine) as long as a quality lower parts(buffer,tube, and spring and trigger group) are used in conjunction with a quality bolt and carrier(see brands listed above)

 

Another reason why I have some serious love for my AR is I have stacks of parts and can completely rebuild it in a matter of minutes. Can't seem to find a spare bolt and carrier for my saiga

 

I think this says alot. You don't need to worry about all of the "internals" with an AK. I am not an AR hater. I have had and shot AR's. I like them. However, I feel the AK is a much more stable (as in less temperamental) and robust platform. I can also procure two to three (or more) AK's for the price of a top tier AR. Do the money math.

 

Also, there is a reason that the AK is the preferred weapon of terrorists and revolutionaries around the world.

Edited April 9, 2012 by canoecanoe

[hutchsaiga 93]

...Can't seem to find a spare bolt and carrier for my saiga

 

Those are often tough to come by, true. The upside is that almost no one will ever need a spare bolt or carrier for any Saiga weapon, (rifle or shotgun). Still, those who plan ahead might buy a few "spare" sporter rifles and shotguns, if only for the critical internal parts.

 

Certain AR parts have a very definite, imo low rnd-count "expiration date". Modern Kalashnikov pattern firearms, (all Saigas fall into this category), with only the most basic maintenence, are dependable for a couple generations.

 

I think you bolded no one when you should have bolded ALMOST. That's the why we call them SPARE parts isn't it? I have seen cracked siaga carriers(at the gas piston) on rifles on this forum. So I would really like to have a spare bolt and carrier for my saiga. Also most will never need a bolt and carrier for an AR but a mil spec MPI tested carrier and complete bolt can be had for

BCM for $139

 

Post, you sound like you know what you want in an ar. But why go 20"?? And why Goverment profile barrel? Do you plan on mounting an m203?

My favorite setup I have is a 16" with midlegth gas system. And 1/8 twist to take advantage of all the 55gr wolf I have a around but still be able to shoot 75gr TAP accuracy out to 300m

 

Once again. Not really an AR fanboy. Just trying to profess my belief that they are both suitable combat firearms. And if the zombies came to my yard. They are both ready:) but if I new I was hoofing 10miles that day id grab my AR. All others instances it would be my saiga in full ak103 dress:)(except for that damn folding stock, havnt gotten there yet)

Edited April 9, 2012 by hutchsaiga

[thehun 20]

Like I said...ARs with cheap internals pay the ultimate price for giving ARs bad names...honestly...I trust my life with both of my rifles

 

True statement. True statement. A quality bolt carrier and bolt mean everything. BCM, DD , PSA, and many others MPI test every single bolt and carrier they make and are bet your life dependable parts. It has been decided that quality of lower does not matter(someone has even made a lower out of wood and rifle functioned fine) as long as a quality lower parts(buffer,tube, and spring and trigger group) are used in conjunction with a quality bolt and carrier(see brands listed above)

 

Another reason why I have some serious love for my AR is I have stacks of parts and can completely rebuild it in a matter of minutes. Can't seem to find a spare bolt and carrier for my saiga

 

I think this says alot. You don't need to worry about all of the "internals" with an AK. I am not an AR hater. I have had and shot AR's. I like them. However, I feel the AK is a much more stable (as in less temperamental) and robust platform. I can also procure two to three (or more) AK's for the price of a top tier AR. Do the money math.

 

Also, there is a reason that the AK is the preferred weapon of terrorists and revolutionaries around the world.

 

Not true..you still have to worry about it...its a weapon...the internals of an AK is not made from super awesome steel...its still steel and steel gets stressed in an AK as well.

 

It is mostly used by terrorist and revolutionaries around the world because it is a weapon that is readily available to buy at a low cost.

 

I am a fan of both weapon systems...now being said that...if we ever get invaded by a foreign country, they will most likely posses an AK variant...therefore its good to have both systems

Edited April 10, 2012 by thehun

[bikermutt07 10]

This is my first post in an AR vs.AK thread. I have read many of them.

 

But this has been the most informative and fun.

 

My dog in this race is the AK, for a few reasons:

 

1. It's damn simple to operate, and I don't have military training.

2. I live in the heavily wooded south, and if I had to take a shot at someting it wouldn't over 150 yards at the most. And the 7.62 is stronger I believe in that range.

3. Cheap Ammo.

4. Every since I was a kid I wanted nothing more than an AR-15 with a colapsible stock. When I grew up, I saw how many little parts there are in that thing, I saw how much a good one would cost, and I saw that most of the system is incredibly dependent on that little ring of aluminum.

 

Now, I'm sure the lower reciever is plenty tough enough to hold that buffer tube and stock, but I just can't wrap my mind around trusting that.

 

I still may get one one day, but it'll be mostly for educational purposes. Learn the system, etc. etc.

 

Keep this thing going.

[RobRez 1,895]

AKs' like old Metallica

ARs' like New Metallica

AK's like Chocolate pudding

ARs' like Vanilla pudding

AKs' look nice with wood

ARs' look nice with black polymer

AKs' like to drink Vodka

ARs' like to drink Budweiser

AKs' like Mopars

ARs' like Chevys

AKs' wear fuzzy winter hats

ARs' wear their baseball hats backwards

 

The list goes on and on.......

[preparehandbook 326]

A telling comparison...

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

That one's not bad, prepareandbook, but every decent AR vs AK thread needs this video...

 

 

It makes the different calibers' actual performance very clear.

[hutchsaiga 93]

That one's not bad, prepareandbook, but every decent AR vs AK thread needs this video...

 

 

It makes the different calibers' actual performance very clear.

 

Both rounds have certain pros and cons just like the rifles themselves. It is well know that higher velocity lighter weight rounds(5.56) penetrate less than heavy weight slower moving projectiles(x39) but other benifits such as flatter shooting, more energy over longer range, weight of

Ammunition are given to the lighter super high velocity round. Once again, it's really not about what's better, it's about what you prefer and what better suits your mission. I live a in dense forrest (Maine) with most of my time spent in that are rather than more open field or open urban environments. So I prefer x39 for my task at hand, but I am also not saying that 5.56 doesn't have a place and wouldn't serve me well of its all I had

[sncstealth 0]

My bushmaster loves steel cased wolf

[Joseph 141]

Out out of open sights, standing or kneeling unsupported both the AK and AR are more accurate then i am.even on a rest the accuracy advantage i see is very minimal. my AK shoots 2-3' MOA (saiga ..223) and the red dot i use is a 3MOA dot see where i'm going with this? The "Accuracy" advantage is a silly point there is no real world accuracy difference between these two rifles. Now the AR-15 does some impressive things with a scope on it BUT who is going to limit a combat rifle with a huge scope? good luck in close range fighting with 6X magnification.

 

600 yard shots are basically unethical unless you have a hubble scope or the guys in a uniform in SHTF most "bad Guys" probley wont be in uniform.

 

if you have drank the .223 coolaid because of all the balistics shit you read over at ar-15.com ak 74/saiga .223 has you covered.

 

rails for the ak 47's are fine. perfectly suitable for mounting all your bottle openers and lazers and rape wistles

 

AR 15 has way more maintenance issues and will be more expensive in terms of cost.

 

AK type weapons will be very reliable, more or less reliable is hard to deffinitenly say, in water inviroments it will deffitantly be more reliable as well as Mud. desert is hard on both guns but ak47 probley gets the edge here too.

 

Ak is way more durable.

 

Ar 15 is lighter, one of it's only real advantages, making it the rifle perfect for females.

 

Ak And AR has tons of accessories and rails and all the bullshit if you actually care about all that.

 

Remember the reason the Ar-15 was designed around DGI is that DGI gives you a faster cyclic rate for full auto, but sence we don't have auto sears

you lose the firing rate benefit and take on all problems assoicated with it.

 

_CATAGORIES_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

AR-15-- More expensive, lighter weight, thicker barrels, freefloat rails,

 

AK-100's- Cheeper, clamp on rails, lighter barrels, heavy-er (about 1-3 pounds depending), longer servace life, folding stock option.

 

SAME- Balistics (just pick the right caliber), general rail bullshit(lights, lazers & scopes and rape whistles), collapsing stocks, mag capactity,

fireing rate (semi auto triggers), PRATICAL accuracy, running, standing, kneeling unsupported and open sights. (excuse me bad guy, i need to set up my sled for awhile so my ar mantains sub MOA for this gun fight). Same range of engagements and over all capablites.

Edited April 12, 2012 by ZombieJefferson

[bohound 281]

This argument gets me BANNED in other gun forums. Thanks a LOT Saiga addiction and bias.

 

AR people don't like the glaring faults in their platform pointed out- even if they're based on fact and logic.

 

They also don't like you making fun of their little Zombie pep squad.

 

Just a hint, in case anybody feels froggy with the AR folks- they are very sensitive, and their asses chap easily. Butthurt WILL ensue.

[preparehandbook 326]

That one's not bad, prepareandbook, but every decent AR vs AK thread needs this video...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lprGoEpDXJQ

 

It makes the different calibers' actual performance very clear.

 

Both rounds have certain pros and cons just like the rifles themselves. It is well know that higher velocity lighter weight rounds(5.56) penetrate less than heavy weight slower moving projectiles(x39) but other benifits such as flatter shooting, more energy over longer range, weight of

Ammunition are given to the lighter super high velocity round. Once again, it's really not about what's better, it's about what you prefer and what better suits your mission. I live a in dense forrest (Maine) with most of my time spent in that are rather than more open field or open urban environments. So I prefer x39 for my task at hand, but I am also not saying that 5.56 doesn't have a place and wouldn't serve me well of its all I had

 

I agree, the AR and 5.56 have their place. If the rising tensions between man and squirrel ever rupture inot open combat this weapon/caliber will rein supreme. With modern improvements in squirrel armor (specifically the abandoning of the oak-leaf and walnut shell gear of the 70's for the newer soup can based armor) there will be sad days to come when we find the loyal youth fallen in battle never to experience the wonders of unrestricted internet porn, and beside them will be their countless red rider BB guns, many of them will only have succeded in "shooting their eye out"

 

.22 long rifle will serve a huge role in the coming squirrel wars, as many of the newer ARs such as the Umarex and S&W M&P have abandoned the centerfire version of 5.56 and are using the lighter weight "5.56 x 15.6" wich is rumored to be a version of the SS109 that offers more relaible expansion and consistant wound ballistics.

 

Other .22 rifles such as the marlin model 60, remington 6513 and henry h001 will not see combat as they are not "tactical" enough. The ruger 10/22 will see some use in a converted form where 8-10 picatinny rails will be added, because every mall ninja knows if you add enough rails and accesories velocity rises and aiming becomes unnecessary.

 

The war between man and squirrel is coming, and it'll be nuts!

 

On a more serious note....

 

All these stories about how in Iraq there were "so many headshots that the US was thought to be executing people" here are several facts from that whole deal:

• The foreign press (al jazeera, etc) accuse of of assasinations whenever US soldiers kill withouit suffering heavy losses, helicopter strikes are often referred to as "assasinations". So stop quoting the enemy's news stories when convienent lest you be taken for an al qaeda sympathizer.
  
• We are comparing shots taken by unarmored, largely untrained, insurgents with iron sighted AKs to shots taken by well armored and supported troops using $800 optics on $1200 rifles. (the training being the largest factor)
  
• some of the people where actually shot at very close range (under 50 yards)
  
• some of the people killed were indeed executed by other Iraqi's at contact range
  

[DogMan 2,343]

ARs cause that "Not So Fresh" feeling

AKs cause erections lasting longer than four hours.

[preparehandbook 326]

An AR wronged my family, we trusted it and let it move in when it was having trouble, we opened our home and hearts to it. The list of bad things it did to repay us follows:

• It raped our dog
  
• gave our cat a bad haircut
  
• called long distance 900 numbers
  
• filled our hard drive with porn we didn't like
  
• signed up our grandfather to NAMBLA
  
• canceled our priests NAMBLA membership
  
• put jello in our fishtank
  
• donated our son's college fund to al qaeda
  
• left the toilet seat up
  
• gave our canary herpes
  
• told my wife what my guns REALLY cost
  
• ate the last slice of pie
  
• put ipecac in the punchbowl
  
• invited jehovahs witness over every day for a month
  
• spread avian flu to the third world
  
• ruined the mideast peacetalks by inserting a laugh track into the translation software
  
• framed viktor bout
  
• kidnapped natalie holloway
  
• claimed to be the lindberg baby
  
• blew up the hindenburg
  
• fired corrosive ammo in my mint volcano repeating arms first series rifle and didn't clean it