In the AK vs. AR Comparisons...

[bikermutt07 10]

...And as to thread drift... yes, this thread has suffered some serious drift.

 

But how much can be said about the original subject?

AKs are awesome rifles, robust, easy to operate, pleasing to the eye and encompassing all that makes a fine combat weapon.

ARs are a sad, flimsy, disgrace that is better at wasting money than wasting bad guys.

 

And to further respond to MR ALLBOLD LARGEFONT (Who seems to be posting very little on this thread except to say that it has gotten off subject)

 

This is yet another AK vs AR thread ON AN AK FORUM!

 

WTF do you think will be the outcome?

 

ARe we all going to read a couple of lame ass comparisons that have been rehashed ad nauseum and suddenly all sell our Saigas?

Are we going to trade our sturdy steel magazines for olive drab plastic ones with a little pull strap at the bottom and lego-snaps to link them together?

Will we suddenly forsake the sound engineering of mother russia and instead adopt that bastard child of appropriation committees and focus groups?

 

NO, We are going to all spend some quality time staring at our screens and in between games of Angry Birds we will post trash about ARs, we will gather together to talk shit about the AR, a rifle that is an antithesis to our common love, the Saiga. We are all going to waste time that could be spent shooting, drinking beer, teasing the cat, surfing porn, or any of a vast number of more valuable pursuits.

 

So pardon the fuck out of me if I got off topic and answered posts regarding specifics of lightweight ARs, I guess that is too far off the subject of comparison. I guess I misread the title as AR vs AK.... rather than standard weight AR vs AK I guess getting too far into the particulars of either make is detracting from the AR bashing we are all here for.

 

Yes I will freely admit that I play with ARs too, it makes me feel pretty dirty (like a direct impingment gas system.. ) and more than a litle ashamed, but like a beer drinker who enjoys the occasional hard lemonade... or should I dare to say....zima.... I do dabble in the nasty little lego guns that are ARs.

 

but fear not comrades! I am truly loyal to the AKs, romanian, russian, polish.... Minty or well worn, stock or heavily modified.... factory rivetted or home-screw-built.. I live them all.

 

Well, Mr. Handbook, this "MR ALLBOLD LARGEFONT (Who seems to be posting very little on this thread except to say that it has gotten off subject)," started this thread and was immediately flamed for a subject that's now well north of 80 responses... far more than, "WTF do you think will be the outcome?"

 

By the way, your input has been both astute and appreciated, and you redeemed yourself well, with: "Yes I will freely admit that I play with ARs too, it makes me feel pretty dirty (like a direct impingment gas system.. ) and more than a litle ashamed, but like a beer drinker who enjoys the occasional hard lemonade... or should I dare to say....zima.... I do dabble in the nasty little lego guns that are ARs. but fear not comrades! I am truly loyal to the AKs, romanian, russian, polish.... Minty or well worn, stock or heavily modified.... factory rivetted or home-screw-built.. I live them all."

 

I love this thread!

 

I feel it has been a much fairer discussion of the 2 platforms than many times it has been gone over.

 

Though I would have come across looking a lot smarter if I had remebered you started it.

 

But.... "type first, look like an idiot later" is kinda my MO.

 

 

 

I think he was refering mostly to he pie and cake lol

[PinkFloyd 63]

I'll just say the cartidges have their pluses and minuses. Where I live 7.62x39 makes a lot more sense because it's not affected much by foliage if you're shooting in the woods. I also swing AK because they're so easy to maintain and you can train someone to shoot a Kalashnikov in a hurry if need be. Spare parts are also dirt cheap, AR parts are pricey. Yeah, you can spend a lot on an AK, but a basic 10/63 wouldn't make a terrible WORL rifle, provided it wasn't a lemon.

[preparehandbook 326]

Hey, I'm curious, the original post refered to AR vs AK in the same/similar caliber.

 

I've always thought that 5.45 and 5.56 were pretty damned close ballistically. I know the on paper differences and the theories regarding terminal ballistics and projectile design.

 

What I'm curious about is folks real world experience....

• Do you guys find 5.45 and 5.56 comparable in general?
  
• performance of 5.56 AKs vs 5.45 AKs
  

As to 7.62 x39 ARs..... That's just gross. Too much curve in the mag, might as well buy an AR10...

[shootsmuch 9]

Here's my experiance, im not an expert but can tell you guy's this. A friend who i have been shooting with for about 22 years has bought atleast 8 differant AR rifles in various calibers over this time period. I have personally watched him have problems with just about every one of these guns from jamming to no fire and a host of other things, and he has bought some of the best? To me they just seem to be finicky rifles.

[Joseph 141]

Ar-15's are great for who they are sold too

 

Swat because they are mostly shooting and killing unarmed people or two or three under educated thugs that are being rush by 15+ guys with ar 15's so if one or to have malfunctions it doesn't matter and engagements are less than 5 minutes

 

Poor NATO countries who haven't already made a superior rifle(Germany, France, U,K) and don't ever actually do any fighting anyway like spain or canada.

 

Guys who like to dress up and play swat team member in matches

 

Guys who like to dick measure at the range with "sub MOA' bullshit

 

But for fighting wars and SHTF leave it to the real rifles

 

AKM47/74/100's---or other modern piston driven designs

Edited April 16, 2012 by ZombieJefferson

[hutchsaiga 93]

Ar-15's are great for who they are sold too

 

Swat because they are mostly shooting and killing unarmed people or two or three under educated thugs that are being rush by 15+ guys with ar 15's so if one or to have malfunctions it doesn't matter and engagements are less than 5 minutes

 

Poor NATO countries who haven't already made a superior rifle(Germany, France, U,K) and don't ever actually do any fighting anyway like spain or canada.

 

Guys who like to dress up and play swat team member in matches

 

Guys who like to dick measure at the range with "sub MOA' bullshit

 

But for fighting wars and SHTF leave it to the real rifles

 

AKM47/74/100's---or other modern piston driven designs

 

Holy shit. You have officially taken the award for dumbest fucking thing I've ever read on the Internet.

 

Good for you

[preparehandbook 326]

Ar-15's are great for who they are sold too

 

Swat because they are mostly shooting and killing unarmed people or two or three under educated thugs that are being rush by 15+ guys with ar 15's so if one or to have malfunctions it doesn't matter and engagements are less than 5 minutes

 

Poor NATO countries who haven't already made a superior rifle(Germany, France, U,K) and don't ever actually do any fighting anyway like spain or canada.

 

Guys who like to dress up and play swat team member in matches

 

Guys who like to dick measure at the range with "sub MOA' bullshit

 

But for fighting wars and SHTF leave it to the real rifles

 

AKM47/74/100's---or other modern piston driven designs

 

Holy shit. You have officially taken the award for smartest fucking thing I've read on this thread!

 

To me every time some armchair ranger includes MOA in a sentence describing their weapon they're credibility drops. For 99% of dipshits out there MOA is but a POTENTIAL for accuracy, a theoretical capability of their weapon. I tell them, let's see some fucking groups or STFU.

 

Accuracy is what you can actually do when the chips are down. It has more to do with keeping your wits about you and getting the other poor sap to get in the way of your bullet while you're shaking and pissing your pants (which is ard to do with an erection).

 

Also range increases in the telling, I've been at the scene of an officer involved shooting (with an AR on a man with a screwdriver) that the tape measure put at 3 feet muzzle-to-perp (victim?) the officer described it as 12 feet, when interviewed a week later he was saying 25 feet... In my limited personal experience many if not most urban conflicts occur at very close range, we're talking hugging distance out to a few yards. Most mall ninjas are not going to make a 50 yard rifle shot, let alone hundreds of yards.

 

Look at the north hollywood shootout, a firefight that started at 100ish feet and concluded across a car width.

 

I have had one engagemnt at 200 yards, a few at 20 yards or less, and most at under 10 feet.

 

The one time I faced an opponent at 400 yards (he had a scoped 30 06) we stood behind a water tank, occasionally stepping out in the open to draw fire, discussing wether we should return fire (we did not) while he banged away, the shots were landing in about a 35+ foot group that degraded over time, the shooter was firing from a standing position. When the situation was over the rifle was range tested and could easily get 2 moa.

 

Anyone who is skilled enough to use a rifle and can keep their cool can bag exposed human targets at the effective combat range of an assualt rifle, with an assualt rifle (or semi-clone) be it AR or AK, stories of 1-2 MOA ARs are range fodder and have dick to do with real life.

[hutchsaiga 93]

Let me explain why that was a dumb post a little further

 

1. Suggesting swat officers are murderers of unarmed people

2. Referring to the akm design as "modern"

3.Suggesting Germany, France and uk do not have own firearm designs that are used to arm the majority of their forces.(h&k g36, FAMAS, L85 to name a few)

4.Implying people who own ar's only dress up And "play swat"

5.Implying that if 15 officers rapid fired their ar's at least one would jam(so if this is the case,

How come every soldier who went into combat with an m4 didn't come home in a box becuase of it)

 

I'm worried, that you, may , in fact be .... Retarded

[Joseph 141]

Let me explain why that was a dumb post a little further

 

1. Suggesting swat officers are murderers of unarmed people

2. Referring to the akm design as "modern"

3.Suggesting Germany, France and uk do not have own firearm designs that are used to arm the majority of their forces.(h&k g36, FAMAS, L85 to name a few)

4.Implying people who own ar's only dress up And "play swat"

5.Implying that if 15 officers rapid fired their ar's at least one would jam(so if this is the case,

How come every soldier who went into combat with an m4 didn't come home in a box becuase of it)

 

I'm worried, that you, may , in fact be .... Retarded

 

1. yeah they do all time, truth is truth look it up if you don't believe me. the two encounters i listed are the only common variations of swat engagements.

3. I was specifically referencing (UK, France, Germany) to say they HAD invented superior rifles and listing spain and canada as country that commonly use our Ar-15 surplus.

2. Any rifle with full auto capability is pretty modern, heck i would consider a 1919 .50cal modern ( AKM stands for Avtomat Kalashnikova Moderniziovanny, or AK modernized come on man MODERN is right in the name)

 

4. i was referencing the 3 gun matchs that are dominated by AR variants that is clearly influenced by SWAT training.

5. i wouldn't reference that as common but for making the point that even in a WORST CASE SCENARIO (A.K.A furthest point of the negative standard deviation curve) like 3 guns jamming out of 15-30 it doesn't matter because you are only confronting maybe 1-3 guys

 

oh and name calling is generally not considered a sign of intellectual or emotional maturity

Edited April 17, 2012 by ZombieJefferson

[RobRez 1,895]

Went shooting yesterday with LoneEagle, and we Both were shooting ARs AND AKs, and neither of our heads exploded, Nor did the Moon colide with the Earth!

In fact, I am pretty sure that Every time we pulled a trigger there was a big Bang sound, and then there was a little hole in the paper! Amazing! None of the rifles had any failures, they were all fun, made noise, and even made a cool Ping sound when we shot at the steel targets!

I am sure that both types would also put holes in a pop can too!

We usually try not to drop or throw around our rifles at all, and we did not feel compelled to do so, so they all survived the Drop Test and so did we! Yay, I didn't drop my rifle!!

Come to think of it......we aren't in the military, or involved in armed combat.....although I think I did see LoneEagle put his ball cap on backwards once.

I would really have to say that as far as I can ever forsee using my rifles, they are both totally awesome fun!!

[RoughRider666 47]

Ar-15's are great for who they are sold too

 

Swat because they are mostly shooting and killing unarmed people or two or three under educated thugs that are being rush by 15+ guys with ar 15's so if one or to have malfunctions it doesn't matter and engagements are less than 5 minutes

 

Poor NATO countries who haven't already made a superior rifle(Germany, France, U,K) and don't ever actually do any fighting anyway like spain or canada.

 

Guys who like to dress up and play swat team member in matches

 

Guys who like to dick measure at the range with "sub MOA' bullshit

 

But for fighting wars and SHTF leave it to the real rifles

 

AKM47/74/100's---or other modern piston driven designs

 

Holy shit. You have officially taken the award for smartest fucking thing I've read on this thread!

 

To me every time some armchair ranger includes MOA in a sentence describing their weapon they're credibility drops. For 99% of dipshits out there MOA is but a POTENTIAL for accuracy, a theoretical capability of their weapon. I tell them, let's see some fucking groups or STFU.

 

Accuracy is what you can actually do when the chips are down. It has more to do with keeping your wits about you and getting the other poor sap to get in the way of your bullet while you're shaking and pissing your pants (which is ard to do with an erection).

 

Also range increases in the telling, I've been at the scene of an officer involved shooting (with an AR on a man with a screwdriver) that the tape measure put at 3 feet muzzle-to-perp (victim?) the officer described it as 12 feet, when interviewed a week later he was saying 25 feet... In my limited personal experience many if not most urban conflicts occur at very close range, we're talking hugging distance out to a few yards. Most mall ninjas are not going to make a 50 yard rifle shot, let alone hundreds of yards.

 

Look at the north hollywood shootout, a firefight that started at 100ish feet and concluded across a car width.

 

I have had one engagemnt at 200 yards, a few at 20 yards or less, and most at under 10 feet.

 

The one time I faced an opponent at 400 yards (he had a scoped 30 06) we stood behind a water tank, occasionally stepping out in the open to draw fire, discussing wether we should return fire (we did not) while he banged away, the shots were landing in about a 35+ foot group that degraded over time, the shooter was firing from a standing position. When the situation was over the rifle was range tested and could easily get 2 moa.

 

Anyone who is skilled enough to use a rifle and can keep their cool can bag exposed human targets at the effective combat range of an assualt rifle, with an assualt rifle (or semi-clone) be it AR or AK, stories of 1-2 MOA ARs are range fodder and have dick to do with real life.

 

SO TRUE!!!

[preparehandbook 326]

Went shooting yesterday with LoneEagle, and we Both were shooting ARs AND AKs, and neither of our heads exploded, Nor did the Moon colide with the Earth!

In fact, I am pretty sure that Every time we pulled a trigger there was a big Bang sound, and then there was a little hole in the paper! Amazing! None of the rifles had any failures, they were all fun, made noise, and even made a cool Ping sound when we shot at the steel targets!

I am sure that both types would also put holes in a pop can too!

We usually try not to drop or throw around our rifles at all, and we did not feel compelled to do so, so they all survived the Drop Test and so did we! Yay, I didn't drop my rifle!!

Come to think of it......we aren't in the military, or involved in armed combat.....although I think I did see LoneEagle put his ball cap on backwards once.

I would really have to say that as far as I can ever forsee using my rifles, they are both totally awesome fun!!

 

beautifully put.

[macbeau 902]

"Beware the man who owns but one gun, for he likely knows how to use it." - Banjamin Franklin - 1770

 

The point here? Pick a firearm (AR or AK or FAL or Cetme or Mauser or Mosin,,,etc, etc....) and get good with it.

 

Don't worry about what the other guy has. Just resolve yourself to a platform and a caliber and master it. Not get "good" with it. MASTER it.

Just sayin'...

 

Macbeau sends...