badz2801 0 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Hey everyone. I had a question posted on my forum concerning shipping magazines to Greece. Does anyone know if this is legal? Can they legally own 8-10+ round magazines? Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Chances are... you can ship them in peices similar to what happens to some folks here... mag body one package, spring/floorplate/follower in another... or whatever... Absolute worst case scenario is that customs snatches it up at the Greece Customs office... and thats the end of it... Its not like the Greek police can come get you for sending plastic parts and springs overseas... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
badz2801 0 Posted September 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) Chances are... you can ship them in peices similar to what happens to some folks here... mag body one package, spring/floorplate/follower in another... or whatever... Absolute worst case scenario is that customs snatches it up at the Greece Customs office... and thats the end of it... Its not like the Greek police can come get you for sending plastic parts and springs overseas... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> True...that was my impression....but I also know how pissed and distrusting I am of anything bought/sold over seas. I would actually like to provide the magazine to the individual, esp if they pay good money for it. Thanks for the help. Ian Edited September 9, 2005 by badz2801 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Other than ITAR (which does not govern magazines) there are no international laws on firearms. The laws are written by each country. It is stupid and foolish to presume that just because we can have something here unrestricted, it's that way in another country. We can buy barrels here without any paperwork whereas in many countries, that is a controlled item. In Britain, they can buy sound moderators with as much paperwork as we fill out to buy a six pack of beer. That doesn't mean it can be shipped here, in spite of the fact that a LOT of dumbasses are having them shipped to the US from overseas as '.22 Calibre airgun moderators' even though they are unquestionably coefficient with a firearm and will thread right on to a 10/22 and quiet it right up. Even though many get through customs, should the individual get caught with it, it's buttfucking time. I don't know the laws of Greece, but those are the laws you will need to find out before you ship. In all honesty it's more of a buyer issue as Greece can't enforce their native laws on citizens in other countries. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davidsuffolk 96 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Hey everyone. I had a question posted on my forum concerning shipping magazines to Greece. Does anyone know if this is legal? Can they legally own 8-10+ round magazines? Ian <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Clearly I don't know about Greece but it is in the EU so "may" be similar to the UK. The problem here is not whether it's legal to have them or not (and yes it is legal here in the UK) it is that whenever I have tried to get bits from the US the answer has been that YOUR regulations don't allow you to send abroad. I was refused a FCG (which are not subject to any control over here) by several suppliers and even things like stocks they say they can't send. They say that YOU, the supplier, need to get an export licence before anything can be sent overseas. Now I may be talking rubbish as this is all what has been said to me and I don't know whether it's the complete truth or not but I would think you'd want to be safe and check first? Equally if you put some bits in an envelope and send them only you would know and if the customs at the other end seize them for being against local regulations that would have to be at the risk of the person in Greece? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 They're wrong. It's one of those cases where people don't understand something so to cover their asses, they lie about it. Some things are indeed restricted. Many, many things aren't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Make 5 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 They're wrong. Who are wrong? Because of U.S. international trade restrictions for optics, guns etc. it's almost impossible to buy those things from there and get them to Finland... We are known terrorists I presume... I know many guys trying to get their AR-15's, illuminated scopes and stuff like that out of U.S. but not with very good success... And those things are perfectly legal here and they have all permissions they need (if any needed). BTW: For the original poster: I don't know about international laws; but I know our national restrictions. You can (and hopefully will) send your mags to Finland. Don't know about other EU countries; laws may and will vary in every country. I'd be very interested to see and test your version! --Make Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acca47 0 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 I had a question posted on my forum concerning shipping magazines to Greece. Does anyone know if this is legal? Can they legally own 8-10+ round magazines? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You may want to get in touch with this board's member Nick Karatzides (this is his nick and his real name). He is from Greece, and he is with Hellenic Police special forces - so he's the right person to ask, he must be in the know. I used to ship him paradox for his Saiga .410 and it went thru OK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) I know many guys trying to get their AR-15's, illuminated scopes Firearms fall under ITAR, when you say 'illuminated scopes' I presume you are talking about Night Vision which is indeed restricted by the US State Department. Things like stocks, magazines, triggers, sears, ordinary rifle scopes etc are not restricted. I don't blame them for being a little particular about who gets high end Night Vision. 3rd Gen NVG is an American national technology that gives our fighting men an edge. While Finland may not be a terrorist state if we allowed it's unrestricted international sale, people in 'good' countries would simply act as hubs to ship it to 'somewhat good' countries who could filter it straight into the hands of Osamas goons. Edited September 9, 2005 by McUZI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Make 5 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Firearms fall under ITAR, when you say 'illuminated scopes' I presume you are talking about Night Vision which is indeed restricted by the US State Department. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not talking about NVG's; just ordinary scopes. Who needs american NVG, if we have our own production...? And even scope rings for AR's are PITA to get over the big pond these days... Even our gun importers have hard time to get their orders through your customs. And as you know, it can be hard to get stuff to the other way too. Or is it easy to import S-12 to U.S.? --Make Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) Well, I don't know if Finnish NV is as good as American NV, but if it's in any way 'Russian' , I can assure you that it isn't even in the same universe. If you are looking for a good illuminated recticle tactical scope, Nikko Stirling makes a very reasonably priced 1.5X6-44 unit that is built like a brick shithouse with very clear optics and desirable features. I've actually dropped the whole gun right on the scope bell and it keeps right on ticking. Mine has the German recticle which is like this It's great, as on the 1.5 setting it's a reflex sight (the little triangle is the only part that illuminated) with the option to crank up to 5X or 6X for a rifle scope for longer distances. In 3 Gun, I actually use it more than my Trijicon ACOG TA01NSN as it has the option of lower power for reflex sighting (even though it cost about 1/4 of the Trijicon ) Edited September 9, 2005 by McUZI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 McUzi could you post some kind of proof that it's ok to send mags and other parts overseas without an export license? I would lkie to know for sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) Here's ITAR http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/itar.html The "$100 Rule" applies to exports too. Brownells phrases it like this An Export License is required for all Gun Part orders exceeding $100 (U.S.). Export licenses are issued by the U.S. State Department and may take between 30 and 40 days to receive. Export Documentation is $10 (U.S.) per order, and an Export License will be required for each order.Orders requiring an Export License will be shipped BAX Global or Parcel Post. Neither UPS nor FedEx will deliver these orders. If you wish to use a different freight forwarder, please list them when you place your order. Freight forwarders, besides BAX Global and Parcel Post, require an initial set-up fee of $50 (U.S.). All actions, barreled actions, pistol frames, barrels, barrel liners, and cylinders (even if their price is less than $100, will require a United States Export License.) A small part, a trigger or an unrestricted item (like, say, a hammer) isn't restricted. Edited September 9, 2005 by McUZI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimmbswu 0 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 I think, for the purpose of this particular discussion, that you should only worry about ITAR and export licenses if you plan to regularly sell to customers overseas. Like, if Make wants to import a buttload of your mags to Finland. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DHunter 1 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Hey Make. I can understand the frustration, the import/export crap is a real pain. I was talking to someone in Switzerland about K-31's & loading bullets for them. He CNC machines a copper bullet for them that costs over $2.00 a bullet. We got talking about the Barnes Copper X bullets that are made about 30 minutes from where I live & he says that they can't get them because the U.S. won't allow them to be exported. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 McUzi, I have come to appreciate your input and opinion, but I also know you get what you pay for. You really feel that the Nikko Stirling is a good scope? Even though it's $70!?!? Does it have good performance at all distances, 1.5-6? Right now I'm looking at the Leupold CQ-Mark IV which is $700 and only goes to 3x!!! Please let me know, because if I can get something somewhat comparable at 1/10th the cost, I'd much prefer that. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) McUzi, I have come to appreciate your input and opinion, but I also know you get what you pay for. You really feel that the Nikko Stirling is a good scope? Even though it's $70!?!? Does it have good performance at all distances, 1.5-6? Right now I'm looking at the Leupold CQ-Mark IV which is $700 and only goes to 3x!!! Please let me know, because if I can get something somewhat comparable at 1/10th the cost, I'd much prefer that. Thanks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, it's $70 at CDNN much like Saiga 12's were $229 at CDNN- that is to say that after CDNN runs out, you won't be able to have your gun store order one for $70. I think retail on it is in the $200'ish range which is what I paid when I ordered mine. From Nikko Stirling they're like $300'ish. What CDNN is asking is a steal, so i'll probably lay in for a few more just because they're so cheap right now and it is such a good scope. Yes, it's a very good scope for what it is. I wouldn't compare it to a Nightforce or a Leupold but if you can get over the brand loyalty and judge the scopes on function alone, this one really is a good one. The reason I bought it was because its design was as if I had been asked to design my dream scope from the ground up. Low power but NOT with a gay assed small objective that are so 'tacticool' right now. Illuminated triangle recticle Fingertip adjustments. Reliable. Dependable. Clear optics. If Leupold made a scope to those specifications, I would probably buy that and spend the extra $$$. But they don't. Edited September 9, 2005 by McUZI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MadDog 3 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Just be sure that you don't get your customer in trouble - like when someone try's to send something to the USA that is restricted here but not there... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
badz2801 0 Posted September 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Just be sure that you don't get your customer in trouble - like when someone try's to send something to the USA that is restricted here but not there... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That was one of the reasons I was asking. Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) You might want to contact an attorney not rely on the pseudo experts on line. Contact the Greek Embassy and U.S. Customs and State Departments. And get it in writing. Edited September 10, 2005 by topmaul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted September 10, 2005 Report Share Posted September 10, 2005 I went ahead and got the Nikko Sterling with lit posts. I couldn't decide b/t the german and the posts, but I figured I already have the Hakko so I might as well go with posts. Thanks for the advice, and I'll let you know how it works out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
badz2801 0 Posted September 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2005 You might want to contact an attorney not rely on the pseudo experts on line. 021.gif 021.gif 021.gif Contact the Greek Embassy and U.S. Customs and State Departments. And get it in writing. This post has been edited by topmaul: Today, 07:14 AM Topmaul - Agreed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 Chances are... you can ship them in peices similar to what happens to some folks here... mag body one package, spring/floorplate/follower in another... or whatever... Absolute worst case scenario is that customs snatches it up at the Greece Customs office... and thats the end of it... Its not like the Greek police can come get you for sending plastic parts and springs overseas... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First, we all know about the BATF Form 6 and the minimum wholesale cost. OK. That's here. I am a US lawyer. Unless you know Greek law, please try to stay away from giving legal advice to this guy. Another lawyer at my gun club follows his law-related posts by saying" I am a lawyer, but I am not YOUR lawyer. Free legal advice is worth what you paid for it." Those are good words t live by. Remember that other nations have gun laws that make ours look non-existent. Everybody please beware of what you do, especially if it may affect your freedom. (Remember Midnight Express? That's only one country away from Greece.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 Free legal advice is worth what you paid for it EXACTLY I am not a lawyer... I was just giving my two cents... and it needs to be taken as such... It is by no means GOSPEL! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acetomatoco 0 Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 (edited) Edited September 13, 2005 by acetomatoco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick_Karatzides 0 Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Hey everyone. I had a question posted on my forum concerning shipping magazines to Greece. Does anyone know if this is legal? Can they legally own 8-10+ round magazines? Ian OK, here's what's REALLY going on in Greece according the latest Law (N 2168/1993/A147) about firearms, firearm accesories and explosives possession, in few words: It IS LEGAL to possess a magazine with more than 3rnd capability (8rnd, 10rnd etc), it IS legal to possess firearm accesories like laser sights, tritium sights, high beam flash lights, paradox tubes, red dot / reflex sights, flip up sights etc. in order to instal them on a rifle or shotgun and practice / exercise on shooting at any licenced firearms shooting range or take part (as a certified sport shooter - athlete) into a shooting contest (open category) ONLY! It IS NOT LEGAL to use all of the above stuff to HUNT animals or birds. All the hunters MUST use the original factory sights (no lasers, no flashlights, no reflex sights), with no more than 3 rounds on magazine or loader tube. If a hunter get caught to shoot animals or birds while using high capacity magazines, non-factory sights, flashlights or laser beam sights (hunting is prohibited during night hours anyway), is geting arrested, loose his hunting permit and his firearm possession licence and face a Court of Law with most propable scenario to get into jail for 3 to 6 months or pay a high penalty to set him free. ALL the firearm licenses are controled by the Hellenic Ministry of Public Order through the responsible "office" of Hellenic Police Dpt. Anyone who is licenced to possess only (collectors or sport shooters) or to possess and carry (LE personel, armed forces personel, VIP civilians or licenced bodyguards etc) a weapon, must apply on this law. LE personel and the armed forces can use as high capacity magazines as they want, a variety of sights, a variety of ammo etc for duty purposes ONLY. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 just a comment on this topic, seeing how it resurfaced. I had forgotten about it when I saw it come up. about night vision optics. according to what Ive read, you cannot ship ANY NV to any of the embargoed countries, and you cannot ship ANY NV of greater than gen3 outside the united states without permission from the state department. the reason I know this is because I had a friend not too long ago go on a safari, and wanted me to mail him his NV optic from new york to south africa, and I had to check if I even could. seeing how it was gen. 4, I didnt send it to him. there were lots of interesting things on the list. things like certain types of machine tooling and phone company interchages, for instance, and china was one of the countries on the list. the stuff still gets out I guess, seeing how china has copied nearly every american product/innovation known to mankind that isnt considered top secret, and even they have a lot of that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick_Karatzides 0 Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Remember that other nations have gun laws that make ours look non-existent. Everybody please beware of what you do, especially if it may affect your freedom. (Remember Midnight Express? That's only one country away from Greece.) Consider this too: Cuba and Mexico are only one country away from US. Do you feel any similarity with them? Don't think so right? Well, the REAL "Midnight Express" Turkey IS only one country away from Greece and about 500 culture years back too! I know that this is not the right place to discuss subjects like this, but if anybody feel curious about what the word "culture" means in Turkish language, click on the following link: WARNING - Contains barbarism photos by Turkish nowdays soldiers Turkish culture So, even if GREECE is "one country away" from TURKEY, the differances are countless. Don't get confused. No need to add more coments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acetomatoco 0 Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 It may be legal to have in Greece but it is illegal for someone in the US to export it without permission from the State Department. An 8 rd mag is considered a combat shotgun piece/accessory. I believe it falls into Category 1 (b,c,d,e,f,g or h) Again,good advice is to ask the State Dept and give a detailed description of what you want to send. I disagree with asking permission. The answer will be "no" even if it should be "yes". Asking permission is the same as giving up your rights, and once you lose your rights, you won't get them back. Better to ask a specialist in the specific field (private sector) that you are dealing with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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