Time For A Remodel!!!

[dayofruin 425]

OK... My S12 has had some FTF issues the last couple times i shot it. Last time was really bad. So I set aside time today to strip it down and remove my gas block. I always thought my gas was ok since it functioned properly most of the time till now. Took me only about 10 minutes to get everything off and the gas block was a lot easier than i had anticipated. When i checked the size of my 3 ports, a 1/16 bit will barely fit in them. No wonder I was having problems. I'm going to open them up to 3 ports a 3/32. Some guys are going 3/32 on 4 ports.

 

Should I go larger since i only have 3 ports? I searched the threads and found a couple suggesting 3 @ 3/32.

 

Also, I'm going to be getting a TAC47 auto plug to replace the factory plug.

 

I'd like to replace the gas block with this:

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17692&cat=426&page=1

but how would gas be regulated or could it even be regulated using this on a 109 model?

 

After I get the work done, I'll post some pics.

[haugpatr 972]

Those gas blocks are real cool but I think you would give up any gas regulation ability if you installed it, that is not so cool.

[dayofruin 425]

Kinda what i figured. But the auto plug will get my function where it needs to be and that's more important to me than looks.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

You might not need to do all 3 at 3/32" but it seems most people do go that route. I for one run mis matched port sizes (1@ 3/32" and 2 @ 5/64") with Pauly's bolt work. My S12 will cycle the cheap stuff without failure, using the OE gas regulator and now i'm using a Tula 4 postion regulator without issue. I was willing to remove the gas block again if it didnt cycle like i wanted it too at those sizes but it turned out great!

My suggestion is to try opening them up just a little bit, or even one at a time, to say 5/64" and reem the other two holes with an 1/16"" bit and see how it goes. If it needs more, then remove the block and open one more up a little bit.

If it worked good before, chances are it shouldnt need a whole lot more gas to get it going.

Which ever you decide, a good aftermarket regulator is IMO a very good idea when gas work has been done. It'll really help to control the extra gas and help lower felt recoil.

 

EDIT; fixed typo.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Mullet Man

[gunfun 3,931]

1/8" ???!! did you mean to say ream with 1/16"? 1/8" is huge!

 

I would say put in a 4th hole @ 1/16" and give it a test if there is room, then step up to 5/64" if needed. or maybe 2 @ 5/64" & 2 @ 3/32" if that doesn't do it.

 

Also if he likes that buck only block for the looks, maybe he should consider doing something like funkedout did here http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/74317-1st-s12/page__st__60

[Mullet Man 2,114]

LOL, good catch, yes my bad i meant 1/16".

[gunfun 3,931]

he could do it to 1 @ 10MM and just match the hole in the gas block!

 

Probably wouldn't even need a puck!

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Wonder if the Auto plug could handle it?

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I agree with Mullett Man, go slow, personally, I'd bring them all up to 5/64ths and try it, then ream one and try it, then two and try it until I got the appropriate function. All S-12s are different.

 

Wonder if the Auto plug could handle it?

 

Tac 47 says not to use 3" magnums for a reason, plus it would really suck to get lead shot in the gas block...

[dayofruin 425]

Thanks for the input guys. I likely won't be shooting 3" magnums but I did just place my order for the auto plug.

 

1 huge hole! Haha! I guess I could put a buffer in for that! I'll do some trial and error whiles it's down and see what works best. I'm also going to paint it.

[dboberg 25]

1/8" ???!! did you mean to say ream with 1/16"? 1/8" is huge!

 

I would say put in a 4th hole @ 1/16" and give it a test if there is room, then step up to 5/64" if needed. or maybe 2 @ 5/64" & 2 @ 3/32" if that doesn't do it.

 

Also if he likes that buck only block for the looks, maybe he should consider doing something like funkedout did here http://forum.saiga-1...12/page__st__60

 

Agreed! Take it easy, and take your time. Somethings are worth getting right the first time. This is one of them.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Go 4 ports @ .093". It should run bulk ammo if you reprofile and you can regulate for buck and slugs with one of those garbage ass Twister pucks.

 

I finally found something that the Twister puck might do well, lol! Party Time!

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Just my opinion,

 

but there's absolutely no need for 4 gas ports at .093". I have 3 @ .093" on a 18.5" barrel (16" barrel with permanently attached 2.5" flash hider) and it's borderline overgassed with 3" magnum loads. It will shoot any garbage birdshot you throw at it. The reprofiling and polishing of the BCG, bolt, and extractor is the absolute most critical aspect to reliability IMO The way I see it you can always go bigger or more ports later, but you can't take them back if it's too much.

[dayofruin 425]

I likely won't be adding a 4th hole. I don't have access to a mill and am not comfortable doing it by hand.

I can't wait to get off work so I can start on it! It's like an all new project all over. This time I'll be paying more attention to detail with it though.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Just my opinion,

 

but there's absolutely no need for 4 gas ports at .093". I have 3 @ .093" on a 18.5" barrel (16" barrel with permanently attached 2.5" flash hider) and it's borderline overgassed with 3" magnum loads. It will shoot any garbage birdshot you throw at it. The reprofiling and polishing of the BCG, bolt, and extractor is the absolute most critical aspect to reliability IMO The way I see it you can always go bigger or more ports later, but you can't take them back if it's too much.

Gas is the most critical component of reliability in a gas operated weapon system. That is an undisputable fact and not merely opinion. Reprofile and polish all you want (don't get me wrong, I do too), if it isn't getting enough gas to propel the carrier rearward, it will not run. Just saying.... you might reconsider your logic in the bold type. I don't post pics of any of my trigger work or reprofiling because of people's desire to copy things around here. It doesn't mean that I neglect or do not condone that part of the process. I mainly do it to reduce the recoil impulse of the weapon and make followup shots faster. Increased reliability from the reprofile is just icing on the cake.

 

Post some video of yours cycling 100 rounds of Winchester Universal flawlessly in MD-20 drums at factory spring tension while using unmodified factory springs in the weapon. To get the insane reliability that I produce and Lonestar Arms produces, you have to go beyond the threshold of "enough gas". This will compensate for some fouling and other reliability inhibiting factors that come into play when the weapon gets some rounds on it and starts to heat up (trunnion expansion and changing dimensions in lockup). These weapons can handle it and the BCG hitting the rear block is just a fact of life (and part of the design) unless you want to just barely be on the ragged edge of the weapon cycling. However, proper adjustment of the regulator is a must with more powerful loads when increasing port surface area or not. It all depends on what your reliability standards are. If it won't eject at least 100 out of 100 rounds of Winchester Universal, it isn't reliable, IMO. That is my baseline standard and every S12 that I convert meets that standard or goes back on the bench, which hasn't happened since I developed my reliability process. The weapon in the 100 round "Flawless" video was my first conversion. 4 @ .093". Just saying that gas operated weapons need gas first and foremost in order to be reliable.

Edited April 13, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I likely won't be adding a 4th hole. I don't have access to a mill and am not comfortable doing it by hand.

I can't wait to get off work so I can start on it! It's like an all new project all over. This time I'll be paying more attention to detail with it though.

You don't need a mill, but if you don't feel comfortable doing it, you should probably not try it. Best of luck with it and post some video. I love to see other people spend money

[dayofruin 425]

I likely won't be adding a 4th hole. I don't have access to a mill and am not comfortable doing it by hand.

I can't wait to get off work so I can start on it! It's like an all new project all over. This time I'll be paying more attention to detail with it though.

You don't need a mill, but if you don't feel comfortable doing it, you should probably not try it. Best of luck with it and post some video. I love to see other people spend money

Haha! So do I. I'll be glad to get mine running 100% and the way it ran before, 3 holes ought to get it there.

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Just my opinion,

 

but there's absolutely no need for 4 gas ports at .093". I have 3 @ .093" on a 18.5" barrel (16" barrel with permanently attached 2.5" flash hider) and it's borderline overgassed with 3" magnum loads. It will shoot any garbage birdshot you throw at it. The reprofiling and polishing of the BCG, bolt, and extractor is the absolute most critical aspect to reliability IMO The way I see it you can always go bigger or more ports later, but you can't take them back if it's too much.

Gas is the most critical component of reliability in a gas operated weapon system. That is an undisputable fact and not merely opinion. Reprofile and polish all you want (don't get me wrong, I do too), if it isn't getting enough gas to propel the carrier rearward, it will not run. Just saying.... you might reconsider your logic in the bold type. I don't post pics of any of my trigger work or reprofiling because of people's desire to copy things around here. It doesn't mean that I neglect or do not condone that part of the process. I mainly do it to reduce the recoil impulse of the weapon and make followup shots faster. Increased reliability from the reprofile is just icing on the cake.

 

Post some video of yours cycling 100 rounds of Winchester Universal flawlessly in MD-20 drums at factory spring tension while using unmodified factory springs in the weapon. To get the insane reliability that I produce and Lonestar Arms produces, you have to go beyond the threshold of "enough gas". This will compensate for some fouling and other reliability inhibiting factors that come into play when the weapon gets some rounds on it and starts to heat up (trunnion expansion and changing dimensions in lockup). These weapons can handle it and the BCG hitting the rear block is just a fact of life (and part of the design) unless you want to just barely be on the ragged edge of the weapon cycling. However, proper adjustment of the regulator is a must with more powerful loads when increasing port surface area or not. It all depends on what your reliability standards are. If it won't eject at least 100 out of 100 rounds of Winchester Universal, it isn't reliable, IMO. That is my baseline standard and every S12 that I convert meets that standard or goes back on the bench, which hasn't happened since I developed my reliability process. The weapon in the 100 round "Flawless" video was my first conversion. 4 @ .093". Just saying that gas operated weapons need gas first and foremost in order to be reliable.

 

I'm not disputing anything you're saying. Gas is critical. I'd gladly put up a video of mine flawlessly shooting the MD drum, unfortunately, the IZ109 now has a Russian magwell on it so no more drum. In the same regard you're asking me, I'd ask you to shoot 3" magnum loads out of your gun and see how long it holds up without any serious damage. I know with the amount of port area I have on mine, I am borderline seriously overgassed with 3" magnum loads and that's with maximum control over gas with the MD arms V-plug. On a stock plug forget about it. The array of 12 gauge ammo is so wide, that if you want maximal reliability with the super light stuff, you are almost guaranteed to have to give up something on the heavy side. And to me, reliability in the saiga 12 has nothing to do with winchester universal or birdshot for that matter. It's all about the high brass - it's a military shotgun. At the same time, I don't like to own anything that doesn't work flat out - so I set mine up so that it does flawlessly operate with the walmart stuff.

[gunfun 3,931]

whichever philosophy he has, stepping up and testing is worthwhile. evl is about the only guy I can think of who recommends going as big as 4@ .093 on your first try.

There really is no harm in starting small and working your way up. It just might take a couple more trips to the range to get things right.

 

small changes in port size make a big difference, and the whole process of knocking the block, drilling or reaming, and reinstalling the block took me about 20 minutes on the last step I tried.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

whichever philosophy he has, stepping up and testing is worthwhile. evl is about the only guy I can think of who recommends going as big as 4@ .093 on your first try.

There really is no harm in starting small and working your way up. It just might take a couple more trips to the range to get things right.

 

small changes in port size make a big difference, and the whole process of knocking the block, drilling or reaming, and reinstalling the block took me about 20 minutes on the last step I tried.

Just my opinion,

 

but there's absolutely no need for 4 gas ports at .093". I have 3 @ .093" on a 18.5" barrel (16" barrel with permanently attached 2.5" flash hider) and it's borderline overgassed with 3" magnum loads. It will shoot any garbage birdshot you throw at it. The reprofiling and polishing of the BCG, bolt, and extractor is the absolute most critical aspect to reliability IMO The way I see it you can always go bigger or more ports later, but you can't take them back if it's too much.

Gas is the most critical component of reliability in a gas operated weapon system. That is an undisputable fact and not merely opinion. Reprofile and polish all you want (don't get me wrong, I do too), if it isn't getting enough gas to propel the carrier rearward, it will not run. Just saying.... you might reconsider your logic in the bold type. I don't post pics of any of my trigger work or reprofiling because of people's desire to copy things around here. It doesn't mean that I neglect or do not condone that part of the process. I mainly do it to reduce the recoil impulse of the weapon and make followup shots faster. Increased reliability from the reprofile is just icing on the cake.

 

Post some video of yours cycling 100 rounds of Winchester Universal flawlessly in MD-20 drums at factory spring tension while using unmodified factory springs in the weapon. To get the insane reliability that I produce and Lonestar Arms produces, you have to go beyond the threshold of "enough gas". This will compensate for some fouling and other reliability inhibiting factors that come into play when the weapon gets some rounds on it and starts to heat up (trunnion expansion and changing dimensions in lockup). These weapons can handle it and the BCG hitting the rear block is just a fact of life (and part of the design) unless you want to just barely be on the ragged edge of the weapon cycling. However, proper adjustment of the regulator is a must with more powerful loads when increasing port surface area or not. It all depends on what your reliability standards are. If it won't eject at least 100 out of 100 rounds of Winchester Universal, it isn't reliable, IMO. That is my baseline standard and every S12 that I convert meets that standard or goes back on the bench, which hasn't happened since I developed my reliability process. The weapon in the 100 round "Flawless" video was my first conversion. 4 @ .093". Just saying that gas operated weapons need gas first and foremost in order to be reliable.

 

I'm not disputing anything you're saying. Gas is critical. I'd gladly put up a video of mine flawlessly shooting the MD drum, unfortunately, the IZ109 now has a Russian magwell on it so no more drum. In the same regard you're asking me, I'd ask you to shoot 3" magnum loads out of your gun and see how long it holds up without any serious damage. I know with the amount of port area I have on mine, I am borderline seriously overgassed with 3" magnum loads and that's with maximum control over gas with the MD arms V-plug. On a stock plug forget about it. The array of 12 gauge ammo is so wide, that if you want maximal reliability with the super light stuff, you are almost guaranteed to have to give up something on the heavy side. And to me, reliability in the saiga 12 has nothing to do with winchester universal or birdshot for that matter. It's all about the high brass - it's a military shotgun. At the same time, I don't like to own anything that doesn't work flat out - so I set mine up so that it does flawlessly operate with the walmart stuff.

My S12s only cycle Winchester Universal on the most wide open setting of factory regulators. Any of them will be fine shooting 3" shells. I'll fire as many as you will send and get it on video PM me for my address.

 

ETA: Seriously, these weapons are a lot tougher than most people think.

Edited April 14, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[gunfun 3,931]

Evl. -- No one said they didn't, we've all seen the videos, we're not calling you a liar. Other people achieve that with smaller holes though, including pretty much every professional builder. Don't take it as a personal challenge for someone else to make the reasonable recommendation that he increase his port size in steps so that he gives it just as much gas as it needs to function reliably without letting in extra crud. If it takes him 3 steps and he ends up with your recommended 4 @ .093" No harm was done, and he knows that is what was needed. If he achieves reliability with 3 holes or 4 smaller holes, that's great too.

 

The OP has enough info to make his next steps. Any more posting back and forth feels like Gorillas beating their chests and throwing grass. He's going to get it right if he follows any of the advice stated seriously above. That should be all any of us care about. It is his gun and enjoyment at stake, not whether he does it my way, your way or neither.

Edited April 14, 2012 by GunFun

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Evl. -- No one said they didn't, we've all seen the videos, we're not calling you a liar. Other people achieve that with smaller holes though, including pretty much every professional builder. Don't take it as a personal challenge for someone else to make the reasonable recommendation that he increase his port size in steps so that he gives it just as much gas as it needs to function reliably without letting in extra crud. If it takes him 3 steps and he ends up with your recommended 4 @ .093" No harm was done, and he knows that is what was needed. If he achieves reliability with 3 holes or 4 smaller holes, that's great too.

 

The OP has enough info to make his next steps. Any more posting back and forth feels like Gorillas beating their chests and throwing grass. He's going to get it right if he follows any of the advice stated seriously above. That should be all any of us care about. It is his gun and enjoyment at stake, not whether he does it my way, your way or neither.

You would be surprised at what some of the well respected 'professional builders' think about the subject of overgassing in a system that has a means of gas regulation.

Carry on.... I'll sit back and laugh with the 'professional builders'

[TwentyNizzo 66]

The whole point I'm trying to make is once you exceed a certain port area, you're going to lose the ability to properly regulate the gas ranging from 3" magnum to light birdshot. Even if there are no detrimental effects to the gun itself shooting magnum loads with excessive gas, the other consideration is the monumental recoil. This slows follow up shots and makes the gun less fun to shoot IMO. A perfect example of this is my S12 version 030. It has FIVE gas well sized gas ports. The recoil on a 3" magnum load is tremendous, and I suspect, a compromise the Russians had to make so us Yanks could shoot our crummy walmart ammo and not complain.

[dayofruin 425]

Took her out to the range this morning with a 100 round box of federal 7.5 shot and got everything running great! After the tuning the auto plug, there wasn't one hang up. Should have done this a long time ago.

As far as the remodel goes, I now have:

3 ports at 3/32

TAC47 Auto Plug

Arsenal handguard and retainer. (the retainer is a bit mangled but works. I'll straighten it at work.)

Krebs Custom muzzle brake

While I had everything apart I cleaned, degreased, and painted with Duplicolor high heat ceramic engine enamel in low gloss black.

Still running the Mako shock absorbing stock tube and Magpul stock, Hogue grip, G2, and CSS trigger guard.

[crankywanker 7]

I was thinking about getting an auto plug but I'd really like to still be able to shoot 3" magnums. is that a problem?

[dayofruin 425]

I was thinking about getting an auto plug but I'd really like to still be able to shoot 3" magnums. is that a problem?

I don't usually shoot 3". I mostly shoot clays or targets with target loads. Today was my first run with the auto plug and it was only federal. I'll test more when I have more time.

 

Edited to remove bad info.

Edited April 22, 2012 by dayofruin

[gunfun 3,931]

The autoplug manufacturer says not to shoot 3" with it. People who have done it anyway give mixed reports. It worked ok for me, and I got a buffer just to be safe. Still works great, and doesn't seem too violent. Your mileage may vary.

[crankywanker 7]

will it destroy the trunnion? What are the parts that are usually affected?\

[Mitch535 29]

Why not run the autoplug for all of your 2 3/4" shells and when you decide to run 3" mags, slap your factory plug in and set it to the appropriate setting? Its not like that takes a long time.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Why not just run 2 3/4" shells? Honestly, do you need more power than a 2 3/4" slug?