My First Gun Project

[romad7 75]

Here is my very first gun project ever so I didn't want post this until I had it back together and running so here it is.

 

There are still some things that need to be done so it is only mostly complete right now.

 

To start I'll answer some questions that I am sure will come up.

 

Most of my knowledge was gained from reading the forums here and specifically the SBS Technical thread in the NFA section since this will be an 11" SBS when I get my approval.

 

Yes, those are holes in the barrel and no I won't tell what they are for, I don't want to say anything until I have that part complete since there are already some mistakes that need correcting;-)

 

I moved the gas system back 3.75" and can proudly say that it runs similar to before I did the mods. Still needs some tuning, the holes start at a little over 7 1/4". I kept as close as I could to the specs of an 8" gun since that is a tried and true design. Hoping that the extra 3" of barrel (after cutting to 11") will make up for the holes in regards to the requirements of S12 Gas Dynamics (should be a college course).

 

Still need to weld holes, back plate, paint, finish making hand guard, etc...

 

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT easy!!! If you don't have a lathe, you cannot do this. I have no experience in gunsmithing but years of experience in many of the skills/traits needed for this job. If you read the SBS Technical forum and it is confusing to you then pause and seriously re-consider what you are doing before you screw up your gun (there were some close calls for me).

 

For those of you who have the skill but just need pictures, here is the perspective of a fellow skilled noob. Hopefully this helps someone.

 

Here are the pics :

 

 

Here is where I bored out the gas block to fit the shortened gas piston rod (technically the bolt carrier but it is the piston rod as well now). Dremel sanding drum works well for this.

 

Now it fits, I cut the piston rod a little long to allow for the fitting process later.

 

A simple pipe cutter for the gas tube.

 

Now I turned the barrel down (this is a friend of mine with a shop since I don't have a lathe)

If you can, I highly recommend securing the spinning end somehow or you may end up with chatter marks (see next pic). We weren't able to do that and I didn't want to take out the barrel.

 

Her are the new holes. They are .083". I used a hand drill instead of a mill or drill press due to the movements needed to keep the bit from just bending away from the hole. I am sure the better builders have more refined techniques but not me. I drilled straight to start and angled it as it went deeper, it wants to plow at an angle so had to be careful about that.

 

The hole in the gas block is a little bigger now to allow more exposure of the holes. I just drilled it the same size as the hole on the bottom of the block

 

Test fitting. Notice the tape, I put that on the old holes and rubbed a crayon on it to get the impressions to transfer the locations to get the general spacing right.

 

Its hard to see but the gap between the carrier and the trunnion (bottom of gun in picture) is what I used to check the piston rod (carrier end) length

Edited April 19, 2012 by romad7

[Direct_ecneulfnI 5]

I dont even know what to say.

[romad7 75]

Wait until its done, not sure how it will turn out but at least it runs. That's my baseline, everything else is gravy:-)

 

Also, forgot to say but there won't be any sights. Sounds crazy, I know, but I want the cleanest look that I can get. I don't actually need them, just 5 rounds of 00 buck rapid fire and all 5 were kill shots at around 10 yds. Never used the sights on my Mossberg 500 either. Good enough for now, we'll see what I end up doing.

Edited April 18, 2012 by romad7

[Spartacus 1,619]

Very nice!

 

Look forward to seeing it finished.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Wow! Nicely done sir!

[enigma 1]

BOLD move! Nice looking work

[Fitty% 808]

Good job man.....to the question of holding the gun to take the wobble out you should've welded the back plate on first then center drilled the plate so you would be able to hold it between centers. It would've taken alot if not all the wobbble out. Then you could weld the center drilled hole in the back plate closed and cleaned it up to look nice. Or you could've taken the barrel out. To me, and I'm just guessing, the holes in the barrel look like your going to put a mid-barrel break on it.

[romad7 75]

Good job man.....to the question of holding the gun to take the wobble out you should've welded the back plate on first then center drilled the plate so you would be able to hold it between centers. It would've taken alot if not all the wobbble out. Then you could weld the center drilled hole in the back plate closed and cleaned it up to look nice. Or you could've taken the barrel out. To me, and I'm just guessing, the holes in the barrel look like your going to put a mid-barrel break on it.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

That's a good idea, if I decide to do this again I'll definitely keep that in mind. I have some pretty wild ideas for the next one which may involve a new barrel and one of those self regulating gas blocks on the new S12s (I know of a friend of a friend that makes shotgun barrels). Have to finish this one first though.

 

Good guess on the brake, although you may be surprised as to how I do it:-)

[Fitty% 808]

Well I cant wait to see how you do the mid-barrel break!

[romad7 75]

Here are some pics at about 95% complete but this is pretty much it as far as the finished look.

 

New changes:

Polished the bolt carrier, started doing this on just the bottom to reduce friction but liked the look so I kept going.

Added shim in cover to keep the piston rod in line.

Finished the mid brake using a reamed out Monster Brake welded to the barrel, the weight is more balanced and I was able to control the gas release with holes in the barrel.

 

Still have to weld the rest of the holes and add a back plate with sling attachment ring but I wanted to see how it would look all together and painted.

 

 

 

 

Here is a pic of the dust cover shim. I haven't added the tab on top yet since it has been staying on, i'll keep an eye on that though.

 

 

Here is the Photo-Chopped version. I have been undecided about converting to an SBS but this picture has me pretty convinced. What do you guys think, cut or not?

 

Edited May 5, 2012 by romad7

[romad7 75]

Range Report:

 

I tried both Federal and Winchester WMart bulk packs without much luck but I fired a slightly higher FPS round and it worked great. 00 Buck and mid power rounds work without issues also.

 

I have no need to be able to fire the bulk pack stuff as long as everything above that works 100%, that seems to be the case so I am happy. I will be reloading also, so I will figure out what the best round is and stick to that.

 

Adding the shim seems to have resolved all ejection issues that I was having. Keeping the carrier in line is very important.

 

The back blast took some getting used to but it wasn't so bad after a while. I did slightly cant the gun "gangsta-style" (not too much though) when firing to offset some of the blast. It was a little more comfortable on the wrist that way to. The Auto-Plug helped with the recoil as I am assuming that the Monster Brake did too (its difficult to tell without comparing with/without in a scientific manner).

 

Gloves are highly recommended but I don't mind. Did come in handy when I accidentally cover the one of the vent holes on the Auto Plug, that hurt! I'll be putting a Magpul AFG back on to keep my hand in the right place:-)

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Very nice, you might as well do the paper work after that last pic

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

If you need a shim to keep the piston in line, I wonder if the gas block isn't slightly canted...

[romad7 75]

When the end of the carrier (which is also the piston rod) comes out of the gas tube it can rise up, tilting the bolt causing ejection problems. The shim keeps the carrier level when it exits the gas tube. Something I learned from Tony Rumore in the SBS Technical thread.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Oh, duh, shortened gas system, never mind...

[romad7 75]

Very nice, you might as well do the paper work after that last pic

 

I think you are right, besides it's my nature to push the limits of my designs.

 

This month's extra money and time is going towards setting for reloading and finding the best load for the money for my gun, should be fun:-). Next month I will be submitting the paperwork for the SBS. I love this gun!

[Fitty% 808]

Well played sir....well played!

 

 

Edited May 6, 2012 by blkhwkguy

[Guns Are Great 140]

Just a question about that last pic everyone keeps talking about. With out a stock isn't it a pistol now and no need for nfa stuff. Just wondering? Draco pistol is just a shortened ak and ar pistols are another example, correct? I would love a .410 like this.

[romad7 75]

Since the gun was originally a full length shotgun with a stock just cutting it down won't make it a pistol, the only thing that it can be is an SBS (or a stock less shotgun over 26" OAL) If the gun was originally created without a stock (from the maker) it could be made into an AOW. it would have to be made as a pistol from the maker to be allowed that designation.

 

Check out the NFA section here for lots of good info.

 

A .410 would be cool but the cost of ammo and similar weight of the gun makes that a less attractive option. The lighter recoil is good though.

Edited May 6, 2012 by romad7

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Since the gun was originally a full length shotgun with a stock just cutting it down won't make it a pistol, the only thing that it can be is an SBS (or a stock less shotgun over 26" OAL) If the gun was originally created without a stock (from the maker) it could be made into an AOW. it would have to be made as a pistol from the maker to be allowed that designation.

 

Check out the NFA section here for lots of good info.

 

A .410 would be cool but the cost of ammo and similar weight of the gun makes that a less attractive option. The lighter recoil is good though.

 

True, but there ARE S-12 AOWs, the companies that make them remove the front trunnion (the serialized part) build their own, and replace it. This, apparently, makes the ATF happy.

 

You CAN run an S-12 sans butt-stock or pistol-grip only as it's called, as long as the barrel length and the receiver length add up to minimum requirements. In Texas, this is 26" overall length but it varies from state to state. So these pictures where the weapon is PGO, aren't illegal.

 

It all boils down to knowing the laws in your state and making sure that you meet their requirements. Some states don't allow pistol grips period, so it would be impossible to run PGO...

Edited May 6, 2012 by Caged

[Bvamp 604]

an AOW must be on a fresh reciever. first of all. this means you have to destroy the original saiga as imported, and bring a brand new, unnamed reciever in to mount the trunion on to make an AOW

 

further - an AOW falls under a couple of criteria. caliber, overall length, and overall weight .

 

some states argue this weight or this length, blah blah.

 

some say that you can just take the stock off your SBS, and its ok, some do not agree with this.

 

I would check your laws and federal specs to the "T" before going further.

 

aint nothing gonna hold up in court if you say "i read it on the internet".

 

see what its defined as when you mount a forward grip or certain slings on an M92....prolly wont go over so well...

 

good luck.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Ben Vampatella

[gunfun 3,931]

Lovely. You may want to make the holes into slots for the monster, but that is a very clever method.

 

Definitely SBS if you can.

[romad7 75]

Thanks. Slots would be good and now that I have access to a mill it would be easy, maybe next time...

[gunfun 3,931]

I was looking forward to the finished version. dang.

[moose421 0]

I love the machine work that you are doing. Nice job, looking good.

[romad7 75]

Thanks, guys. Its slow going now and its actually for sale but I am going to keep tinkering on it a little at a time until I can find someone to take it off my hands. Thats why i won't SBS it, don't want to do the paperwork twice.

 

There is a test fire video in the sale thread in my sig for anyone interested.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

There is a lot going on when it comes to the reliability of a shortened gas system. If it weren't for my previous experience making Saiga 12s run so well, I'm sure that I couldn't have achieved the reliability that I did with my SBS. Most of it was based on the exact same things that I do to the 18 and 19" guns. Everything you need to make it run already exists within the weapon. You just have to figure out how to arrange it and what to remove. Don't give up.

Edited August 11, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[45Bretired 19]

It rocks! Would you mind if I copy your mid barrel comp idea using a different muzzle device?

[romad7 75]

You can copy all you want, that's why I posted it, it would be cool if someone thought my ideas/work good enough to copy.

 

I'll keep an eye on your other mid barrel comp thread and try and help where I can.

 

Thanks for the words Evl, I am going to keep at it as time allows. There doesn't seem to be much interest in buying it so I'll just keep going until I get an offer. The price will likely go up anyway with the more work that I do to it. I am working on a quick detach stock for it so we'll see how far I get with that. I am curious to see how it runs with an MD20 vs the ProMag12, so I might pick one of those up when the funds are there.

Edited August 12, 2012 by romad7

[45Bretired 19]

Appreciate it. I really don't want to shorten the Gas system if I don't absolutely have to. it just runs so damn good right now. I may just leave it alone if I have to shorten it. I'm fully capable of doing it but if it ain't broke then don't break it you know. plus it's a kitten as is in the recoil department. I guess I just want to see how tame I can get it.