No blocked ports, FTE with with buckshot on a stock gun. (First time

[TheJoe90 27]

(Im long winded, the last paragraph sums it up)

 

Had my gun about 5 days, and have done no modifications at all. I did sit down and manually cycle the bolt a few billion times, and I could see where the paint was now missing. I also pulled the gas adjuster off, then used a feeler gauge to verify there are 4 unblocked ports. They might be a touch small, (Nothing to compare to) but all four seem to be in place and clear.

 

Today was day one at the range. No mods, and we started with some buckshot because I knew it would reliably fire it, and my first few shots wouldn't be disappointing. I fired the first 10, then handed it to a buddy to fire the another 5. Shockingly, it had two FTE problems for him! This is NOT with birdshot, this is with buckshot.

 

Now, I believe that the issue is partially he is a piss poor shooter. This was the ONLY high brass FTE for the day. Fired another 40 rounds of high brass, then about 75 rounds of birdshot. We also had some FTE issues with birdshot. (An assortment of 25 round boxes, mostly 1200 and 1250 velocity)

 

Now, I know this is not uncommon. This issue happens all the time for new Saiga 12 owners. I am concerned about how to proceed. Many people have suggested its important to make absolutely sure to make sure your gun is running well, completely unmodified, before changing anything. Beating it up with a few hundred rounds is supposed to be unnecessary. On the flip side, I bought mine at a local "Brick and motor" store and dont want to do anything that will void my warranty if this gun turns out to be a lemon.

 

The options I see, listed in order of cost, and listed with the possible catch.

 

#1. Remove the paint from the rails, using a dremel tool. Clean and lube all the surfaces where the bolt and the receiver slide. Im concerned that taking a dremel to it will void the warranty

 

#2. New gas adjuster. The MD Vplug comes to mind, or the Tac-47. This would show me if I am close, and hopefully get rid of my fear that I bought a lemon. Leaves my warranty in tact, and supposedly increases the gas flow. The most experienced people on the site say that its important to make the gun function well in its completely stock state....

 

#3. Glass bolt modification. The only downside is the cost, but from what I understand, will make my gun near perfect.

 

I have recieved conflicting input on how to proceed with a new gun, warranty in tact, that seems under-gassed and unreliable. A few FTE with birdshot I expected. Two FTE with higher brass seemed worth posting a question about though.

[TheDarkHorse 216]

Out of what I've read here, two things come to mind...

 

Lean into the gun when you fire. Think forward stance. Limp shouldering to an S12 is like limp wristing to a handgun.

 

A little gun oil on the carrier and rails goes a long way. Believe it or not, your gun may have a ways to go before it is truly broken in.

[supertex 242]

i have the same, 4 unblocked ports, the CSS saiga 12 reliability kit worked for me i can shoot from the hip or limp shoulder

Edited August 7, 2012 by ak karl

[vulcan16 971]

Port sizes may be too small and/or limp shouldering may be causing your problem.

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

because from what you wrote:

 

 

I fired the first 10, then handed it to a buddy to fire the another 5. Shockingly, it had two FTE problems for him! This is NOT with birdshot, this is with buckshot.................then about 75 rounds of birdshot. We also had some FTE issues with birdshot.

 

did the FTE occur with your buddy, because if it did, it's not the gun, but him. in which case there is nothing wrong with the gun.

 

 

FTE can also be attributed to "wimp-wristing", not holding the firearm "solidly". this is really common with semi-auto pistols, but can be with a semi-shotgun

Edited August 7, 2012 by Matthew Hopkins

[TORKIT 20]

Its a new gun, the fastest way i found to speed things up was to get some Mothers polish from autozone or wherever, rub your bolt and carrier for a few till the yuck comes, then clean and lube, gota remember around 500 rds to break it in. Then you go tothe next step, which is enlarging the ports and block, its a piece of cake.

[Lord Ak-47 49]

Even if the guy is handeling the gun with a weak grip you want to be able to cycle the Saiga 12 from the hip imo.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

You don't need a dremel to remove the paint from the rails. Just some 200 grt sand paper. Use the same sand paper on the underside of the bolt carrier, the face of the hammer, and inside rails of the bolt carrier, the face of the extractor claw (just wrap your sand paper around a penicl or dowel to fit the curvature.. just remove the coating from the materials. Keep your sand paper good and wet with oil.

[TheJoe90 27]

The whimp wristing of my buddy im sure was part of the problem, but I was SHOCKED that it happened with reasonably high brass rounds. This was very early in our day, and I have chalked it up to a fluke.

 

The Birdshot FTE, however, happened for everyone. Im going to sand the rails a bit tonight and lube the bolt and rails (gigidy) and I will be taking it out again on Friday.

 

Even if it functions perfectly, I will most likely be putting the MD V-plug or the Tac-47 auto plug in. Still trying to decide. The only concern I have with the Tac-47 is that its not recommended to use with three inch shells.

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

 

Even if it functions perfectly, I will most likely be putting the MD V-plug or the Tac-47 auto plug in.

 

doesn't make a lick of sense to me, if the gun will functions perfectly, why are earth are you going to throw away your money on that?

[TheJoe90 27]

Took it into the garage this evening, did some sanding. I can tell already that it is better when I pull the slide back, and friday I will know if its at 100%.

 

Even if it functions perfectly, I will most likely be putting the MD V-plug or the Tac-47 auto plug in.

 

doesn't make a lick of sense to me, if the gun will functions perfectly, why are earth are you going to throw away your money on that?

 

You ask a fair question! 97.4% of my prior experience with guns was M16/M4s, I dont pretend to know this gun well. My logic is that a 3" shell has a lot more kick (Therefore more gas actuating the bolt) than a 2 3/4" shell, yet these use the same gas setting. This means, in my mind, that your gun is either being under-gassed with 2 3/4", or over-gassed with 3". Being able to fine tune would be nice.

 

The V-plug, as I understand it, can be moved without a tool. Thats useful.

 

The Tac-47 is the best of all worlds, except for cost and 3" shells.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Unless your gun is failing to cycle, it's not undergassed, and so long your bolt/carrier isn't impacting the rear trunion it's not over gassed. The two symptoms are easily diagnosed.

[TheJoe90 27]

Well, I bit the buckshot so to speak, I got out the sand paper and removed some paint inside the receiver and on the bolt carrier. Lubed it up real nice, took it out today, fired 25 rounds of birdshot without a hitch. I fired, my whimp-wristed buddy fired, fired from the hip, each time it ejected. Fired a few scar-face style (So hello to my not so little friend!), which was funny with only 5 rounds. This was with federal bulk from Wal Mart. We also had a wonderful time firing slugs at some very evil coke cans.

 

Now that I have verified the gun is fully functional and Im not worried about having to warranty it, I plan to order my drum mag and my conversion kit on Friday!

 

Just have to decide between the CAROLINA SS trigger guard or the TROMIX DIY.

Edited August 11, 2012 by TheJoe90

[G O B 3,516]

Put a couple drops of light oil on the bolt, especially the extractor, and a light coat of molly grease on the carrier slot and rails. The more it breaks in the less lube necessary.

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

(Im long winded, the last paragraph sums it up)

 

Had my gun about 5 days, and have done no modifications at all. I did sit down and manually cycle the bolt a few billion times, and I could see where the paint was now missing. I also pulled the gas adjuster off, then used a feeler gauge to verify there are 4 unblocked ports. They might be a touch small, (Nothing to compare to) but all four seem to be in place and clear.

 

Today was day one at the range. No mods, and we started with some buckshot because I knew it would reliably fire it, and my first few shots wouldn't be disappointing. I fired the first 10, then handed it to a buddy to fire the another 5. Shockingly, it had two FTE problems for him! This is NOT with birdshot, this is with buckshot.

 

Now, I believe that the issue is partially he is a piss poor shooter. This was the ONLY high brass FTE for the day. Fired another 40 rounds of high brass, then about 75 rounds of birdshot. We also had some FTE issues with birdshot. (An assortment of 25 round boxes, mostly 1200 and 1250 velocity)

 

Now, I know this is not uncommon. This issue happens all the time for new Saiga 12 owners. I am concerned about how to proceed. Many people have suggested its important to make absolutely sure to make sure your gun is running well, completely unmodified, before changing anything. Beating it up with a few hundred rounds is supposed to be unnecessary. On the flip side, I bought mine at a local "Brick and motor" store and dont want to do anything that will void my warranty if this gun turns out to be a lemon.

 

The options I see, listed in order of cost, and listed with the possible catch.

 

#1. Remove the paint from the rails, using a dremel tool. Clean and lube all the surfaces where the bolt and the receiver slide. Im concerned that taking a dremel to it will void the warranty

 

#2. New gas adjuster. The MD Vplug comes to mind, or the Tac-47. This would show me if I am close, and hopefully get rid of my fear that I bought a lemon. Leaves my warranty in tact, and supposedly increases the gas flow. The most experienced people on the site say that its important to make the gun function well in its completely stock state....

 

#3. Glass bolt modification. The only downside is the cost, but from what I understand, will make my gun near perfect.

 

I have recieved conflicting input on how to proceed with a new gun, warranty in tact, that seems under-gassed and unreliable. A few FTE with birdshot I expected. Two FTE with higher brass seemed worth posting a question about though.

 

Forget all the polishing crap. Buy an MD Arms gas plug with a CSS puck. Get the right settings and it should work fine if your ports arent blocked.

 

(Im long winded, the last paragraph sums it up)

 

Had my gun about 5 days, and have done no modifications at all. I did sit down and manually cycle the bolt a few billion times, and I could see where the paint was now missing. I also pulled the gas adjuster off, then used a feeler gauge to verify there are 4 unblocked ports. They might be a touch small, (Nothing to compare to) but all four seem to be in place and clear.

 

Today was day one at the range. No mods, and we started with some buckshot because I knew it would reliably fire it, and my first few shots wouldn't be disappointing. I fired the first 10, then handed it to a buddy to fire the another 5. Shockingly, it had two FTE problems for him! This is NOT with birdshot, this is with buckshot.

 

Now, I believe that the issue is partially he is a piss poor shooter. This was the ONLY high brass FTE for the day. Fired another 40 rounds of high brass, then about 75 rounds of birdshot. We also had some FTE issues with birdshot. (An assortment of 25 round boxes, mostly 1200 and 1250 velocity)

 

Now, I know this is not uncommon. This issue happens all the time for new Saiga 12 owners. I am concerned about how to proceed. Many people have suggested its important to make absolutely sure to make sure your gun is running well, completely unmodified, before changing anything. Beating it up with a few hundred rounds is supposed to be unnecessary. On the flip side, I bought mine at a local "Brick and motor" store and dont want to do anything that will void my warranty if this gun turns out to be a lemon.

 

The options I see, listed in order of cost, and listed with the possible catch.

 

#1. Remove the paint from the rails, using a dremel tool. Clean and lube all the surfaces where the bolt and the receiver slide. Im concerned that taking a dremel to it will void the warranty

 

#2. New gas adjuster. The MD Vplug comes to mind, or the Tac-47. This would show me if I am close, and hopefully get rid of my fear that I bought a lemon. Leaves my warranty in tact, and supposedly increases the gas flow. The most experienced people on the site say that its important to make the gun function well in its completely stock state....

 

#3. Glass bolt modification. The only downside is the cost, but from what I understand, will make my gun near perfect.

 

I have recieved conflicting input on how to proceed with a new gun, warranty in tact, that seems under-gassed and unreliable. A few FTE with birdshot I expected. Two FTE with higher brass seemed worth posting a question about though.

 

Forget all the polishing crap. Buy an MD Arms gas plug with a CSS puck. Get the right settings and it should work fine if your ports arent blocked.

[Spartacus 1,619]

Forget all the polishing crap. Buy an MD Arms gas plug with a CSS puck. Get the right settings and it should work fine if your ports arent blocked.

 

Did you even read what he posted?

He said he polished it up and it's running fine now.

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

Yeah I read what he posted but my advice is still the same. I put the kit on mine before I put one round through it and Ive had no problems at all. I polished everything inside well after about 200 rounds through it. Theres no way to determine what the initial cause of his issues were or whether the polishing fixed them or not.

[vulcan16 971]

Yeah I read what he posted but my advice is still the same. I put the kit on mine before I put one round through it and Ive had no problems at all. I polished everything inside well after about 200 rounds through it. Theres no way to determine what the initial cause of his issues were or whether the polishing fixed them or not.

This advice coming from someone who doesn't even do his own trigger work?

You put a low brass kit before firing the weapon?

Please quit giving newbies advice BOB until you can do your own work.

 

Go to the back of the back of the bus.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Jetmech

[Bcrider 68]

Jetmech, Bob has also advised previously against polishing and reprofiling. Must have sick knowledge the likes of the vendors here lack. For a good laugh, go back and look at his splash into this pool with his buddy "Wisecrack" FKA "Soupcan" AKA a complete jackass.

[vulcan16 971]

Jetmech, Bob has also advised previously against polishing and reprofiling. Must have sick knowledge the likes of the vendors here lack. For a good laugh, go back and look at his splash into this pool with his buddy "Wisecrack" FKA "Soupcan" AKA a complete jackass.

BOB seems to know very little of what he's talking about. I'm very fortunate to have gathered good information from this forum, and Keith Nells at TAC47. Edited August 24, 2012 by Jetmech

[Bcrider 68]

Agreed. Cobra helped me a ton as did soaking in the info from all of the threads while still realizing my limits.

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

Yeah I read what he posted but my advice is still the same. I put the kit on mine before I put one round through it and Ive had no problems at all. I polished everything inside well after about 200 rounds through it. Theres no way to determine what the initial cause of his issues were or whether the polishing fixed them or not.

This advice coming from someone who doesn't even do his own trigger work?

You put a low brass kit before firing the weapon?

Please quit giving newbies advice BOB until you can do your own work.

 

Go to the back of the back of the bus.

Edited August 26, 2012 by BOB A. BOOEY

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

Jetmech, Bob has also advised previously against polishing and reprofiling. Must have sick knowledge the likes of the vendors here lack. For a good laugh, go back and look at his splash into this pool with his buddy "Wisecrack" FKA "Soupcan" AKA a complete jackass.

 

Mine is polished and profiled. I did it myself too. Thanks for playing.

[vulcan16 971]

Jetmech, Bob has also advised previously against polishing and reprofiling. Must have sick knowledge the likes of the vendors here lack. For a good laugh, go back and look at his splash into this pool with his buddy "Wisecrack" FKA "Soupcan" AKA a complete jackass.

 

Mine is polished and profiled. I did it myself too. Thanks for playing.

Post some pics.

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

Jetmech, Bob has also advised previously against polishing and reprofiling. Must have sick knowledge the likes of the vendors here lack. For a good laugh, go back and look at his splash into this pool with his buddy "Wisecrack" FKA "Soupcan" AKA a complete jackass.

 

Mine is polished and profiled. I did it myself too. Thanks for playing.

Post some pics.

 

As soon as my gun comes back from its conversion I would be glad to. Even the folks who are converting it said I did a good job.

Edited August 26, 2012 by BOB A. BOOEY

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Holy shit Bob, I used to think people were going a bit too far by slamming you in other threads. I don't believe it's right for members here to troll, posts negatively about others, or jump on bandwagons with other trolls....but damn dude, the more I hear coming out of you lately, the more I have to wonder what turnip truck you fell off of and when?

 

Skip the polishing BS / go right out and buy all that crap to put into a gun that hasn't even been fired? REALLY?

 

So called "reliability kits" are junk IMO Bob. (not that my opinion matters to some here and I really DGAF to be honest...)

If what people want to do is take a perfectly well built and reliable firearm that's designed and built to run high brass (or at least hotter loads than that wimpy wallyworld shit everyone wants to try and use...), and take out all the springs and other factory parts to make it a more wimpy gun, so they can jump on a bandwagon and do what joe blow did with success....ok...lol.

 

Not me bro, I prefer to leave every single factory part the weapon came with as far as actual operation goes. (With exception of the dumbed down parts they only stuck in there to be able to sell to other countries with ridiculous laws like ours...)

If someone actually knows WTF they are doing, it's very easy to make a few adjustments to these factory parts and get a weapon that not only functions 100% on anything you feed it, but costs a shitload less than wasting your money on all that after market shortcut, tricky dicky, BS.

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

Holy shit Bob, I used to think people were going a bit too far by slamming you in other threads. I don't believe it's right for members here to troll, posts negatively about others, or jump on bandwagons with other trolls....but damn dude, the more I hear coming out of you lately, the more I have to wonder what turnip truck you fell off of and when?

 

Skip the polishing BS / go right out and buy all that crap to put into a gun that hasn't even been fired? REALLY?

 

So called "reliability kits" are junk IMO Bob. (not that my opinion matters to some here and I really DGAF to be honest...)

If what people want to do is take a perfectly well built and reliable firearm that's designed and built to run high brass (or at least hotter loads than that wimpy wallyworld shit everyone wants to try and use...), and take out all the springs and other factory parts to make it a more wimpy gun, so they can jump on a bandwagon and do what joe blow did with success....ok...lol.

 

Not me bro, I prefer to leave every single factory part the weapon came with as far as actual operation goes. (With exception of the dumbed down parts they only stuck in there to be able to sell to other countries with ridiculous laws like ours...)

If someone actually knows WTF they are doing, it's very easy to make a few adjustments to these factory parts and get a weapon that not only functions 100% on anything you feed it, but costs a shitload less than wasting your money on all that after market shortcut, tricky dicky, BS.

 

Im not telling folks to go out and buy a kit for a gun thats not fired. This guy had FTE's for a gun he's fired. I bought the kit before I put my gun through any rigorous shooting. I did fire it before I put the kit on it and which is to say I relaced the plug and puck after about 30 rounds. I had FTE's with the original plug on #2 and had no FTE's with #7.5 or #8 with the new plug. I then polished and profiled my bolt, carrier and rails mostly because I liked the way the carrier looked and to load mags on a closed bolt. My thought process is if there is no power to your car the first you do to try on resolve the issue is to replace the battery not take it a mechanic and spend $500 for the guy to look at it. I have never used, or need to use, the reduced spring. I've always had the stock spring in it. My gun has shoots very well. Im getting a basic conversion for it now which includes looking at my ports. I'm told my ports are functioning as designed.

 

You are the expert on here and I am not so I always value your feedback.

 

Holy shit Bob, I used to think people were going a bit too far by slamming you in other threads. I don't believe it's right for members here to troll, posts negatively about others, or jump on bandwagons with other trolls....but damn dude, the more I hear coming out of you lately, the more I have to wonder what turnip truck you fell off of and when?

 

Skip the polishing BS / go right out and buy all that crap to put into a gun that hasn't even been fired? REALLY?

 

So called "reliability kits" are junk IMO Bob. (not that my opinion matters to some here and I really DGAF to be honest...)

If what people want to do is take a perfectly well built and reliable firearm that's designed and built to run high brass (or at least hotter loads than that wimpy wallyworld shit everyone wants to try and use...), and take out all the springs and other factory parts to make it a more wimpy gun, so they can jump on a bandwagon and do what joe blow did with success....ok...lol.

 

Not me bro, I prefer to leave every single factory part the weapon came with as far as actual operation goes. (With exception of the dumbed down parts they only stuck in there to be able to sell to other countries with ridiculous laws like ours...)

If someone actually knows WTF they are doing, it's very easy to make a few adjustments to these factory parts and get a weapon that not only functions 100% on anything you feed it, but costs a shitload less than wasting your money on all that after market shortcut, tricky dicky, BS.

 

Im not telling folks to go out and buy a kit for a gun thats not fired. This guy had FTE's for a gun he's fired. I bought the kit before I put my gun through any rigorous shooting. I did fire it before I put the kit on it and which is to say I relaced the plug and puck after about 30 rounds. I had FTE's with the original plug on #2 and had no FTE's with #7.5 or #8 with the new plug. I then polished and profiled my bolt, carrier and rails mostly because I liked the way the carrier looked and to load mags on a closed bolt. My thought process is if there is no power to your car the first you do to try on resolve the issue is to replace the battery not take it a mechanic and spend $500 for the guy to look at it. I have never used, or need to use, the reduced spring. I've always had the stock spring in it. My gun has shoots very well. Im getting a basic conversion for it now which includes looking at my ports. I'm told my ports are functioning as designed.

 

You are the expert and I am not so I always value your feedback.

 

 

PS - I dont really think advising someone to get a MD Plug makes me reckless and ignorant as some would state. A lot of responses on here state that those things have fixed peoples issues. I dont chime in on much else with regards to gun function. Trollers on here have a pattern of that behavior and theyre happy to spead around their horseshit. We all know who they are. I mean is this subject really THAT inflammatory. I didnt tell these folks NEVER to polish their parts I simply said START with a gas plug and see if that works. Really no big deal.

Edited August 26, 2012 by BOB A. BOOEY

[lewie212 37]

You can reprofile and polish your bolt but can't do a simple conversion?

[vulcan16 971]

Yeah I read what he posted but my advice is still the same. I put the kit on mine before I put one round through it and Ive had no problems at all. I polished everything inside well after about 200 rounds through it. Theres no way to determine what the initial cause of his issues were or whether the polishing fixed them or not.

Condadicts what you posted above.

One post states you put the kit on it before firing one round, and the other states you put the kit on after 30 rounds.

Which one are we supposed to believe BOB?

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

Im done hi-jacking this guys post. Jetmech clearly has an issue with me, in fact, he may have a larger issue than he's currently even aware of. Signing off now.