45Bretired 19 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Ok my S12 runs perfect. I've done alot of gas system correction modifications and polished the internal bearing surfaces. I have a TAC47 Auto Plug and a CSS performance Puck the one with the nipple and the gun has been converted. It is 100% reliable and I would definitely trust my life to it without a second thought. I don't want to lose that reliability. Actually I'm not willing to give up anything on the reliabilty side of the table. This gun actually likes Winchester Universal it runs it with absolutely ZERO FTF or FTE! If I'm not chopping the barrel or shortening the gas system will adding the mid barrel comp cause any cycling issues? If yes is the answer can they be corrected by adjusting the Auto Plug? I know every one of these guns are different and have thier own little quirks and shit. I'm not afraid to tear it down and get deep into it if necessary but I like to know what I'm getting into. I'm considering a Firebird Precision comp just because I like them with the little deflectors at the back. How far up from the gas block should it be to keep it from causing cycling issues? Has anybody done this with a full length gas system and 19" barrel? Any advise, help and especially first hand accounts with or without video would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Edited August 12, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Every S12 that I have seen with the FB comp had a short gas system. It will take some work no matter how you do it, factory length gas system or not. By porting the barrel for the brake, you are going to change dwell time and likely effect reliability. You may need to add or enlarge ports. This falls outside of my personal experience and I am merely offering my opinion based on my general knowledge of the platform and how it works or doesn't work. I'm sure someone will come along who has direct experience and can offer you their thoughts or cautions. Seems like it might be nose-heavy. You might be better off with something like a G-01, if you do not mind the added length. The Autoplug only allows finer adjustment of existing gas in the system. It will not increase what is available. Edited August 12, 2012 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Correct about the Auto Plug. I actually didn't have to adjust it at all out of the box so I know I have alot to play with, thats the only reason I mentioned it. I had a fully blocked port on my 4 port gun and one of the three unblocked ports wasn't even drilled through all the way. I had to open the gas block up to expose #4 and brought all my tools to the range so I could open them up in small increments until it shot Win Universal with 100% reliability. I stopped at all 4 ports being 5/64. It runs like a champ with anything I can cram down it's throat now. Also when cleaning I don't have anymore crap in the gas block or on the puck than before I opened them up. I thought that was strange but hell it runs to good to go asking questions. I did have to blue Loctite the Auto Plug adjustment screw but I didn't have to adjust it. Without it I'd think it's probably over gassed. Do you think that would help me with the mid barrel comp? Evl, I've read alot of your post and I do have faith in your words I know you know your shit man. I'm sure I can make it work and I kinda like front heavy. I always did when upland bird hunting, for me a little upfront weight helps my swing when transitioning from target to target. What do you think if I drilled one hole for each side fire a mag, see if it cycles, if so drill another and so on and so on. Oppinions please. Edited August 12, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 For that comp the holes are something like 3 rows of 5 at 1/8" so you could do all the holes before attaching the comp and see if you can make it work. The holes are small enough that if you change your mind then you can just weld them up carefully and be fine. This way you can try it before making the comp unreturnable after using it on the gun. The trick is going to getting it close enough to the action to get the most effectiveness out of the comp without robbing too much gas from the gun. I think that is the reason most guys move the gas system back, that's why I did mine like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Thank alot. Anybody know if the hole are drilled straight or at an angle for mid barrel comps in general? Next obvious question if they are about what angle? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I read about both, I'll see if I can find that thread. Try this, http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/40407-porting-for-mid-barrel-comp/ Edited August 12, 2012 by romad7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) That just answered all my questions but now I'm not sure I want to go with the Fire Bird. Any suggestions on a quality affordable comp? I know in almost every case you get what you pay for. I gotta ask in this day and age though. Thaks for the link romad7. Edited August 12, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Please bear in mind this is completely unfounded speculation on how I would approach this undertaking, given the limited information that I have about the project. Everyone has their own way, I have zero experience with mid-brakes, and it is completely reasonable for me to expect that someone may come along and tell me that I am wrong. I absolutely do not know it all about these weapons and there are others here that can speak far more intelligently on the subject of brakes, be they mid barrel or muzzle mount. My interest in this platform is fairly narrow and is focused on a very specific theory, which most brakes do not coincide with. However, I have tried and succeeded at many things which I had no previous experience doing and I think that success is founded in a good general understanding of this platform. You asked for my opinion and I really like to be of some help when I can, so here I go. "A shot in the dark", if you will.... Without any further modification to the weapon, I would properly adjust the Autoplug and run at least 100 rounds of the weakest ammo that you would like to reliably run in it. If the Autoplug needs a little more adjustment, do so, but take your time and try to achieve some degree of accuracy when adjusting it. Adjustment is critical for the way I am about to propose doing this. Now that the Autoplug is adjusted to account for at least 100 rounds worth of fouling with your favorite crap ammo (in the most restrictive mag that you want to use), onward we go. Take a good look at the Autoplug adjustment screw. Is there plenty of room to adjust it in and decrease the amount of gas that is allowed to escape the system? If so, then you can slowly press forward with the project and use the adjustment of the Autoplug to account for the incremental loss of pressure that is caused by porting the barrel for the brake. I would start by drilling for the forward set of ports on each side (furthest from the gas block, maybe even one at a time per side). Test fire. Adjust the Autoplug as needed only. Is there still room for adjustment on the Autoplug? If so, start with one per side of the next set of ports. Test fire. Adjust, if needed. Is there still more room to adjust? If so, continue with the port drilling process. Keep in mind, it might be wise to drill one port per side at each deflector if you are needing to aggressively adjust the Autoplug when you drill the ports for the brake. Don't get in a rush with it and do not forget to allow room for the Autoplug to be removed from the gas block. Just a guess, but you will need about 3/4" of unobstructed barrel between the Autoplug and the brake. Hopefully, someone will come along to pick this suggestion apart and point out its shortcomings, confirm that it may work, or make a suggestion based on their own experience and success. Edited August 12, 2012 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I just know of the ones discussed in that thread. What didn't you like about those? You could always design your own, seriously, this is something that I have thought about many times. Take you design to a CNC shop, maybe become a business member here and sell them. I don't have the time with so many projects going on already. Maybe one day though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Evl, we obviously think alike as that was my plan. I have alot of adjustment on the table with the Auto Plug I mean a whole lot. We'll see, taking baby steps one hole per side then test is not a problem at all. Romad7 what I meant was I see it can be done and thats what matters. I won't start this for a month or two but I'm confident with my skills that I will be able to make it happen. I may even start with a smaller hole and if there is no problem I'll gradually step them up to 1/8. It will probably help that the Auto Plug sticks out an inch and like evl said I also have to add enough space to remove it. That alone will put my rear ports drilled about 3.5" after the gas ports. Thanks for all the advise and help. I'll let you know when I start it. I had a temporary lapse of judgement, I'm going Firebird or not at all. They are just to cool. Edited August 12, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chicagosfinest 26 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I likee the dreadnaught better and dosent blow gas back in your face Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) But isn't that what the deflectors are for at the back of the Firebird? I know it also gives the gasses something else to work against but it definitely forces it away from the shooter. Edited August 12, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MLM0358 107 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 From my personal experience I wouldn't recommend the mid-barrel comp. unless you are a serious competition shooter and need to shave of fractions of seconds off your time. Sounds like you've got a great reliable gun now. I shoot 3 gun matches and have S-12s with and without mid-barrel comps. . The only reason to do it in my mind is if you really need BOTH a comp and a choke. I've ended up removing the mid barrel comps from all my guns. My best gun has a GK-01 comp modified to allow internal chokes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chicagosfinest 26 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Ive seen the fire bird and the ports are at a wierd angle and really dont hit those spoons Malcom how did u modify the molot to have a choke inside im very intresreted since ive been looking for something like this forever 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MLM0358 107 Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Threaded the barrel for internal chokes. Then machined out the existing metal insert in the GK-01. Made a bushing that press fits onto the OD of the barrel and matches the ID of the machined out GK-01. Originally thought it would need clamping action on the barrel, but turned out that it's a close enough press fit that red locktite holds it on fine. The GK-01 slips onto tthe bushing and is held on with a button head machine screw. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Thats a beast. Maybe I'll go that route. I'm not a serious competitor at all but I do shoot some local matches. Edited August 13, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BOB A. BOOEY 45 Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Ok my S12 runs perfect. I've done alot of gas system correction modifications and polished the internal bearing surfaces. I have a TAC47 Auto Plug and a CSS performance Puck the one with the nipple and the gun has been converted. It is 100% reliable and I would definitely trust my life to it without a second thought. I don't want to lose that reliability. Actually I'm not willing to give up anything on the reliabilty side of the table. This gun actually likes Winchester Universal it runs it with absolutely ZERO FTF or FTE! If I'm not chopping the barrel or shortening the gas system will adding the mid barrel comp cause any cycling issues? If yes is the answer can they be corrected by adjusting the Auto Plug? I know every one of these guns are different and have thier own little quirks and shit. I'm not afraid to tear it down and get deep into it if necessary but I like to know what I'm getting into. I'm considering a Firebird Precision comp just because I like them with the little deflectors at the back. How far up from the gas block should it be to keep it from causing cycling issues? Has anybody done this with a full length gas system and 19" barrel? Any advise, help and especially first hand accounts with or without video would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Why would you bother adding a mid barrel comp? Does it really make enough of a difference to justify all that work? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 ONLY if you shorten the gas system at least 1.750 inches. Otherwise you DO NOT have enough gas/pressure to effectively make the Mid-Length Muzzle Brake work. Weight on the end of the barrel will be more effective to reduce felt recoil of a stock barre and/or gas system. Jack 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 ^^^^ /advice from a guy who can make a few bucks selling you something to hang on the end, or a lot of money doing the short gas mid comp set up. Note that he is talking you out of the service that would make him more money... He has done a bunch and takes competition seriously. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 (edited) I agree, it's a kitten now and I just don't think it's gonna be worth the head ache. Plus I'm not fast enough to out run the gun accurately settling back on target. Maybe if I get more serious one day. I'm a tiny little garage shop that barely does any minor Saiga work like basic conversions and bolt and carrier reprofiling and correcting gas systems on Vodka guns right now as I'm fairly new to the platform. My personal S12 is my learning/test experiment gun. But one day it will be added to the specialty list. I'm not advertising because I'm not a Buisiness member yet so I'm not putting my name out. Hey Jack thanks for the unbiased advise wish I would have known about you before I moved to Pensacola as I'm originally from Hammond La. and grew up Deer hunting in Fort Polk. Edited August 19, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BOB A. BOOEY 45 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 I agree, it's a kitten now and I just don't think it's gonna be worth the head ache. Plus I'm not fast enough to out run the gun accurately settling back on target. Maybe if I get more serious one day. I'm a tiny little garage shop that barely does any minor Saiga work like basic conversions and bolt and carrier reprofiling and correcting gas systems on Vodka guns right now as I'm fairly new to the platform. My personal S12 is my learning/test experiment gun. But one day it will be added to the specialty list. I'm not advertising because I'm not a Buisiness member yet so I'm not putting my name out. Hey Jack thanks for the unbiased advise wish I would have known about you before I moved to Pensacola as I'm originally from Hammond La. and grew up Deer hunting in Fort Polk. If it purrs like a kitten why even consider messing with it? No good deed goes unpunished when it comes to tryin to fix what aint broken with these things. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) Well I'm not gonna do it anymore. But I'm sure I could make it run. Still you are correct, if it ain't broke right? I need to get another Vodka special just for this shit. Edited August 22, 2012 by 45Bretired Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BOB A. BOOEY 45 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Tinkering is nerve racking for me. Others love it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) If it ain't broke, make it awesome! That's my philosophy but that usually ends up taking a lot of time, sanity and money:-) Edited August 23, 2012 by romad7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 This thread was part of my inspiration for doing surgery on my 3 G rig. Almost done.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Waiting on video evl. I know we're gonna see one right? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Well, it is going to be ugly. I am going to leave it unfinished and beat it for a while. I have a feeling that it will evolve. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I'm sure it will evolve. I'm waiting on your chime on the bad day at the range post. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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