What do you do if you are sold a non 922r compliant Saiga from FFL?

[mostholycerebus 415]

Heheh, I always call the police to ask if what I already did was legal or not.

[gunman1 1,753]

USPS is just another part of the MATRIX

[RobRez 1,895]

In a nutshell, you only need to comply with 922r if using magazines that hold more than 5 rounds. A non-922r compliant weapon is not in any way illegal unless you are using hi-cap mags. If they sold you a non922r compliant weapon with only a hi-cap mag, then that is not good on their part. Otherwise, nothing bad/wrong/shady has occurred in this transaction and if you wish to use 10 round mags or drum mags, then do a conversion.

[storm6490 2,768]

First post on this board, as I just purchased a Saiga 12 on Saturday. I have been lurking for a week checking out the wealth of knowledge posted already.

 

I have been looking at 922r compliance and I understand that the chance of getting in trouble are slim to none. The Saiga I just purchased from an FFL was used and came with a Tapco adjustable stock a Tapco pistol grip that is connected to the stock and a Tapco forearm/hand guard. Those are the only 3 US parts on the shotgun. From what i read the fact that it has a pistol grip now means it needs to be compliant.

 

I would think that a store would be breaking the law selling it to me in that state. Has anyone come across this before and if so what are your thoughts for my options. My long term goal was to modify any Saiga I purchased which would require I be compliant, however i didn't plan on buying an non-compliant weapon.

 

Link to Stock/Pistol grip combo on S12

http://www.amazon.com/Tapco-Intrafuse-Stock-Black-STK07160/dp/B004YTWW7M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372871354&sr=8-1&keywords=tapco+saiga+t6

Wipe the sand out of your pussy and fix it.

[gunman1 1,753]

 

First post on this board, as I just purchased a Saiga 12 on Saturday. I have been lurking for a week checking out the wealth of knowledge posted already.

 

I have been looking at 922r compliance and I understand that the chance of getting in trouble are slim to none. The Saiga I just purchased from an FFL was used and came with a Tapco adjustable stock a Tapco pistol grip that is connected to the stock and a Tapco forearm/hand guard. Those are the only 3 US parts on the shotgun. From what i read the fact that it has a pistol grip now means it needs to be compliant.

 

I would think that a store would be breaking the law selling it to me in that state. Has anyone come across this before and if so what are your thoughts for my options. My long term goal was to modify any Saiga I purchased which would require I be compliant, however i didn't plan on buying an non-compliant weapon.

 

Link to Stock/Pistol grip combo on S12

http://www.amazon.com/Tapco-Intrafuse-Stock-Black-STK07160/dp/B004YTWW7M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372871354&sr=8-1&keywords=tapco+saiga+t6

Wipe the sand out of your pussy and fix it.

 

BEFORE THEY SHOW UP ON THE DOOR STEP..........

[Big John! 2,062]

Why make a big deal out of it. Either fix it or don't put a big mag in it. My LGS has no clue about 922 crap and if I brought it up to them they would probably just laugh at me.

[Tekilla 13]

Great feedback, I have no problem modifying the weapon, that was my intention even before making the purchase, I was just trying to see if anyone else ran into the issue of an uninformed FFL putting a customer at risks. With the parts that were changed already the and no magazine connected the shotgun is compliant as long as I don't slap in that Russian mag they sold it with I am fine, the ATF is not going to come knocking down my door anytime soon. What annoys me is that had I not found this forum or done my research, I would have been in violation of a law (no matter how stupid it is) by taking my newly purchased Saiga 12 to the range.

 

What if I was just some avg customer who never heard of the Saiga or 922r before, but went in to a shop looking for a semi-automatic shotgun, and that was what they recommended and sold me. An uneducated FFL putting their customers at risk is a shame. You can argue that a consumer should be informed; but would you honestly expect every customer buying weapons today to know every law, most gun buyers rely on their FFL to answer their questions, I asked to speak to their most knowledgeable person on 922r compliance and what that person told me was to be compliant you just need 7 US parts. He was under the impression as long as you slapped any 7 parts even parts that are not on the checklist (which he never heard of before) you would be OK. We are not talking about an FFL selling half a dozen guns a month. This shop sells probably as many weapons as an individual Bass Pro or Gander Mountain does in a month.

[Tekilla 13]

Just heard back from ATF, they gave me good news and bad news. The good news is that as per ATF even though my Saiga is non-compliant I am not breaking any laws by possessing or using it and my LGS did nothing illegal by selling it as they didn't make the modification themselves. The law specifically targets the manufacturer, importer, and modifier not the seller or buyer. The bad news is that he is not authorized to give me this information in writing email or letter, also if I were to make any change what so ever to the Saiga then i must make it compliant. So adding a scope, changing the stock for another US stock even though they are not modifying the part counts up or down the fact that i made a modification the Saiga must be made compliant.

 

So the moral of the story is know what you are buying because your LGS does not know every law out there and they are allowed to sell you a non-compliant weapon as long as they didn't do any modifications to it. My LGS should be warning any customer about how changes to there weapon could put them at risks.

 

But hopefully like many of the post I read before making my purchase helped me become more knowledgeable maybe this post will help a newbie in there search for a Saiga that is right for them.

[mostholycerebus 415]

But hopefully like many of the post I read before making my purchase helped me become more knowledgeable maybe this post will help a newbie in there search for a Saiga that is right for them.

You sound like a good guy, but basically, you have done nothing here. You have one opinion from one agent in one office, who was so confident in that opinion that he wont even put it it writing for you, when he knows that doing so is completely non-binding and would apply only to YOUR specific case. He basically told you nothing, except that hes not going to arrest you now, but did not even give you the weak protection of a written note.

 

All you did here was notify ATF that you have a potentially illegal weapon (probably cause to enter), are an owner of 'assault weapons' (politically expedient bust), and bend over easily to authority. (not likely to offer resistance)

 

ATF does have a number of 'guidelines' they follow, though not spelled out in law. One of these is they consider any firearm over 26" to be not-concealable. Another is that putting a magazine into a rifle is 'manufacturing' a firearm. Another used to be that 7.62x39 is rifle ammo, and therefore cheap steel-core can be imported. Until one American manufacturer did something that changed ATFs mind. In general, ATF 'opinions' are worth the paper they are printed on, in your case NOTHING, and even then there are many cases of people who thought they were legal (and, in fact, may have been legal) getting bitten by a difference of opinion or less-knowledgable agent.

 

The lucky ones are those who get off losing tens-of-thousands of dollars and their livelyhood. Others lost their lives or their families lives.

 

There are some decent people in Gov, and some decent agencies, but some, notably ATF, IRS, CPS, harm more people than they help. All it takes is some congressman telling some upper-level agent that it 'looks bad' that they havent made enough of X type arrests, and all of a sudden your name comes up on a list, and you have public servants knocking at your door.

Edited July 5, 2013 by mostholycerebus

[SaigaSlinger 61]

 

But hopefully like many of the post I read before making my purchase helped me become more knowledgeable maybe this post will help a newbie in there search for a Saiga that is right for them.

You sound like a good guy, but basically, you have done nothing here. You have one opinion from one agent in one office, who was so confident in that opinion that he wont even put it it writing for you, when he knows that doing so is completely non-binding and would apply only to YOUR specific case. He basically told you nothing, except that hes not going to arrest you now, but did not even give you the weak protection of a written note.

 

All you did here was notify ATF that you have a potentially illegal weapon (probably cause to enter), are an owner of 'assault weapons' (politically expedient bust), and bend over easily to authority. (not likely to offer resistance)

 

ATF does have a number of 'guidelines' they follow, though not spelled out in law. One of these is they consider any firearm over 26" to be not-concealable. Another is that putting a magazine into a rifle is 'manufacturing' a firearm. Another used to be that 7.62x39 is rifle ammo, and therefore cheap steel-core can be imported. Until one American manufacturer did something that changed ATFs mind. In general, ATF 'opinions' are worth the paper they are printed on, in your case NOTHING, and even then there are many cases of people who thought they were legal (and, in fact, may have been legal) getting bitten by a difference of opinion or less-knowledgable agent.

 

The lucky ones are those who get off losing tens-of-thousands of dollars and their livelyhood. Others lost their lives or their families lives.

 

There are some decent people in Gov, and some decent agencies, but some, notably ATF, IRS, CPS, harm more people than they help. All it takes is some congressman telling some upper-level agent that it 'looks bad' that they havent made enough of X type arrests, and all of a sudden your name comes up on a list, and you have public servants knocking at your door.

 

Now that is some useful info for you Tekilla. Just make it legal and all is fine.

[MT Predator 2,294]

So, if you buy or build a non compliant weapon and claim you bought it that way, the BATFE will look the other way? Interesting...

[gunman1 1,753]

So, if you buy or build a non compliant weapon and claim you bought it that way, the BATFE will look the other way? Interesting...

 

Well experience shows us that you have no idea what the evil cocksuckers will or will not do, there is no real way of knowing.

 

Remember Waco? How bout Ruby Ridge?

 

Edited July 6, 2013 by AA re-cvrd

[BigChongus 765]

So, if you buy or build a non compliant weapon and claim you bought it that way, the BATFE will look the other way? Interesting...

Or at least pretend to.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Hey, the chuckle head at the BATFE said...

I want that shit in writing from them personally.

I have shit to leave to my boys when I pop smoke and I am not about to set their asses up for a Federal weapons charge and conviction because of my ignorance. So, if I claim I didn't build certain weapons, (not counting the Form 1 weapons I "built" and had to register), the BATFE will say that's ok, just don't alter it like adding an optic and 922R won't be applicable? Sounds like somebody was communicating with a real genius of an agent at the BATFE. The next agent won't necessarily be as naive or uneducated with their own laws.

[Tundra1 391]

My lgs had no clue what 922r was when I questioned them on it. The guy who sold me my saiga 12 wanted to sell me a 20 round drum. I asked about being 922r compliant with the drum and he looked at me like I was crazy. He actually turned to another guy working there and asked him about it, and he was clueless as well. That being said, it is your own ass in the end if you get caught with a non compliant shotgun.

 

Just convert it, you'll like it better guaranteed.

 

And never, ever, ever incriminate yourself!

[jerry52 893]

Well you are on a list , I guess a lot of us are.

Just convert it into something legal and real bad.

Send pictures!

There is something about working on a gun or sharpening a knife that just make a man feel right.

[storm6490 2,768]

Now that you put your head on the chopping block, convert it into something better. Im sure the dealer is thankful for the added attention you created. Either you're a commie spook that deserves a skull fucking, or you're still so dialed into jarhead mode that you can only take orders and ask permission.

 

Use your fucking head next time.

 

If you are some sort of union pensioner trying to entrap people here, go fuck yourself.

 

If you honestly just called the BATF about a S12 and not conducting a simple search online, then bless you. You need it.

[Big John! 2,062]

Now that you put your head on the chopping block, convert it into something better. Im sure the dealer is thankful for the added attention you created. Either you're a commie spook that deserves a skull fucking, or you're still so dialed into jarhead mode that you can only take orders and ask permission.

 

Use your fucking head next time.

 

If you are some sort of union pensioner trying to entrap people here, go fuck yourself.

 

If you honestly just called the BATF about a S12 and not conducting a simple search online, then bless you. You need it.

Stryker, Could you please be more forthcoming about your feelings in the future? Holding back is not good for the soul

[netpackrat 566]

There are some decent people in Gov, and some decent agencies, but some, notably ATF, IRS, CPS, harm more people than they help. All it takes is some congressman telling some upper-level agent that it 'looks bad' that they havent made enough of X type arrests, and all of a sudden your name comes up on a list, and you have public servants knocking at your door.

 

 

This. Their radar... He is now on it.

[psl sniper 963]

 

Now that you put your head on the chopping block, convert it into something better. Im sure the dealer is thankful for the added attention you created. Either you're a commie spook that deserves a skull fucking, or you're still so dialed into jarhead mode that you can only take orders and ask permission.

 

Use your fucking head next time.

 

If you are some sort of union pensioner trying to entrap people here, go fuck yourself.

 

If you honestly just called the BATF about a S12 and not conducting a simple search online, then bless you. You need it.

Stryker, Could you please be more forthcoming about your feelings in the future? Holding back is not good for the soul

 

Really why'd you have to go and sugar coat it?

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

wow, can't believe you called the ATF over that. I bet you're the kind of person that if you were a druggie, you'll call the cops because the cocaine you bought was talcum powder and the drug dealer won't give you back your money

Edited July 8, 2013 by Matthew Hopkins

[saiga12noober 9]

Or this person is some gun leftist trying to understand in regular people terms what is 922r. And maybe there just trying to figure out a way to use this against us by any means. Tin foil hat is always on an listen to the question new member if even a real member. Kind of silly to call AT&T over this and really who would take the the to talk to this cat about this law???? Just wundering

[gunman1 1,753]

Or this person is some gun leftist trying to understand in regular people terms what is 922r. And maybe there just trying to figure out a way to use this against us by any means. Tin foil hat is always on an listen to the question new member if even a real member. Kind of silly to call AT&T over this and really who would take the the to talk to this cat about this law???? Just wundering

Will someone please decipher this for me

[Tundra1 391]

 

Or this person is some gun leftist trying to understand in regular people terms what is 922r. And maybe there just trying to figure out a way to use this against us by any means. Tin foil hat is always on an listen to the question new member if even a real member. Kind of silly to call AT&T over this and really who would take the the to talk to this cat about this law???? Just wundering

Will someone please decipher this for me

 

^^I read it twice it made not a lick of sense to me. AT&T? WTF?

[saiga12noober 9]

ATF spell check screwed it up. I agree with striker sorry if my post didn't make sense there just question about this individual.

ATF spell check screwed it up. I agree with striker sorry if my post didn't make sense there just question about this individual.

[Tekilla 13]

Love the comments, you can agree or disagree with me, but I love how many of the responses are in response to bits and pieces of the topic not focusing on the points or the facts. Yes I called ATF, I don't care if I am on some list now. I didn't send them any info that showed I was non-compliant, I asked them, if the weapon was in fact non-compliant is an FFL allowed to sell it in that state. With the magazine removed the rifle is compliant so there is no risk to me or the LGS. The answer from them was yes and that I would not be at risk by using it in that state. As I didn't receive that in writing I am taking that as a half answer, The LGS has nothing to worry about, and I would be nuts to take the verbal statement that I am not at risk with nothing to back it. So as I stated earlier my intention from before even buying a Saiga was to modify it.

 

My primary concern was if I had no clue about 922r and used it with the factory MAG, due to the LGS not knowing the law they sold me a combination when used was non-compliant. I found that upsetting that an LGS trying to make the almighty dollar would do a disservice to their customers. If you guys want to entertain yourselves by making off the wall comments, that's cool. This is a forum after all, if it wasn't for the humor in forums who would come to them.

[Lone Eagle 839]

And to this day, the BATFE nor the USAG has prosecuted a case on 922( r ). Even the local ATF boys can't decipher that bullshit.

[sccritterkiller 473]

Is it converted yet? Enough with he said she said bullshit. Convert it and post up some gun porn already. Smh...newbies.LOL

[mostholycerebus 415]

And to this day, the BATFE nor the USAG has prosecuted a case on 922( r ). Even the local ATF boys can't decipher that bullshit.

No, its basically an add-on they toss in for free to be traded for a plea bargaining.

 

It does also work quite well as Probable Cause. As in, 10 years down the road under Ms Clintons new second-term-damn-the-voters gun law push, expect a knock on the door from a guy with some paperwork signed by a judge who waived your privacy rights because you admitted to possessing illegal weapons.

 

Noone thought Obama would win either. Twice.

 

Clinton the First didnt have to pass any laws to make times harder for gun owners, he simply adjusted how ATF did things. The culling of the kitchen table FFLs increased transfer costs for all of us, many left the hobby over that BS, and im sure a lot of well meaning people did time or lost alot of money on legal fees.

Edited July 9, 2013 by mostholycerebus

[gunman1 1,753]

So the OP is...... "What do you do if you are sold a non 922r compliant Saiga from FFL? "

 

 

 

Sell it to me for $50.00 and be shed of the problem. Send me the details in a PM.

 

 

You can close this thread now, the problem is solved