Capt Nemo 882 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 After having problems with the Winchester Universal, I'm going to start opening the ports one at a time. Drove the pin for the detent and cleaned all the chips out of the hole that was causing the detent to hang up. (also stoned the back of the detent as the chips tore it up a bit) Now my problem.......I've hammered and hammered, trashed my 1/16" pin punch, tried both sides, and that lower pin won't budge a micron! I'm going to try Mouse Milk penatrant to free it up. ANY OTHER IDEAS??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 I ended up just cutting most of my punch off to where it just barely has a tip of what was there. That way it wont bend when I'm pounding on it. I just use that until It starts to budge, then I'll use a different punch to knock it out the rest of the way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lokmeup 30 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) Cut the punch down like Turbo recommends. Use a BFH and tighten the crap out of your vise... make sure the only thing that can move, is the pin. Edited July 13, 2013 by lokmeup Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 After having problems with the Winchester Universal, I'm going to start opening the ports one at a time. Drove the pin for the detent and cleaned all the chips out of the hole that was causing the detent to hang up. (also stoned the back of the detent as the chips tore it up a bit) Now my problem.......I've hammered and hammered, trashed my 1/16" pin punch, tried both sides, and that lower pin won't budge a micron! I'm going to try Mouse Milk penatrant to free it up. ANY OTHER IDEAS??? The "problem" pin in my personal experience, if there is a problem pin, will usually be the lower pin. Now, I always get it started with a thick, pointed center-punch, then, once it breaks loose I start drifting it with a 3/32" punch that I thinned down a touch. (the punches I use to disassemble bolts) If the top pin is an issue, and I've run into this twice... It was because they started drilling from one side, but then seemed toi figure out they were screwing up and were about to breech the inside of the barrel, so then they drilled from the other side, and made the two holes meet, but the hole was slightly crooked. Then they got the top pin to go all the way through, bending it in the middle, which made it nearly impossible to get out. I had to hot-wrench (oxy-gas with a Victor #1 tip on the gas block where the pin goes) on those 2 to get the top pins out. Heating the gas block expanded the steel, loosening the pins on those 2. Replacing the detent spring is needed after doing that one though, because the heat will ruin it. I wouldn't recommend the average DIY'er trying that though lest they go overboard and warp the inside of the gas block. "To thy own abilities be true." After much profanity & heat, the top pin in those cases comes out, but it's bent & there's no way it's going back in, so I harden a piece of 3/32" 4140 welding rod to make a new pin & hammer it in after porting, then it's all good. Took me forever the first time I came across the top pin issue, and I broke 4 punches figuring it out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Mouse Milk and the vise didn't work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 +1 on a very short punch and a solid base. I made a starter punch about an eighth long out of my old axis pin. Once the pin starts to move, I switched for a longer punch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 I was surprised the first time I knocked them out how hard it was. I had to beat the FUCK out of them before they would start to budge. A lot. Some serious blows before anything happened. Also, Make sure you are actually hitting pins. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/22477-pressing-off-a-saiga-12-gas-block/?hl=gas+block+pins In that pic, 3 and 5 are the pins you need to take out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) The detent pin almost pushed out. It only needed a light tap with the hammer. It's the #5 pin (bottom one) that ain't budging. Starting to think about drilling the SOB out and make a new pin with music wire! Although that's a little scarry so close to the bore. Edited July 13, 2013 by Capt Nemo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Most of the time the problem is weak support below what you are working on, and that is absorbing most of the forces. Try it on a block of oak on a concrete floor. You would be surprised how effective this is. The gas block must have firm contact to the wood with no space or room for any movement or flex at all. One hit from a heavy hammer and the pin will move. You don't even have to swing the hammer really. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 I've tried it clamped in a vise.....NO GO! Drilling may be the only option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spacehog 2,218 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 It took a nail countersink punch and a 2 lb sledge before mine moved. Once it moved I used a standard punch to finish it off. Even with the sledge, I had to hit it pretty hard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Most of the time the problem is weak support below what you are working on, and that is absorbing most of the forces. Try it on a block of oak on a concrete floor. You would be surprised how effective this is. The gas block must have firm contact to the wood with no space or room for any movement or flex at all. One hit from a heavy hammer and the pin will move. You don't even have to swing the hammer really. ^I'd try this first. Make sure there is absolutely nothing taking the shock except the pin. I would have to be 100% sure there was no other way before I would drill. Thats just me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
burntpowder 23 Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) I went through the same thing when I removed my gas block to take my 4-porter from the 1/16 they came at out to 5/64. The bottom pin was a real SOB to get started but it eventually moved and came out easily once it was started. The hard part was getting it started and a short punch (reduces the chance of bending/breaking) and a solid backing on the block was the ticket as others said above. Anyway If you end up drilling it I highly recommend you not use some piece of wire as a replacement pin. They sell them cheap.......http://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/product_p/css-s12-gasblock-pins.htm-BP Edited July 14, 2013 by burntpowder Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted July 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 I've given up!!! The only way is to drill the MF out! May have warped the gas block during the pounding, as the plug is now threading hard! During reassembly, shot the detent to God knows where, and had to fabricate a new one out of 5/32" music wire. Just going to have to run Federal instead, and buy another S-12. Hopefully a new one will be able to get ported. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 I've tried it clamped in a vise.....NO GO! Drilling may be the only option. See, that's the problem. The vice is mounted to a workbench, and that whole assembly is a big shock absorber. It is soaking up all of the force. When you get it solidly supported, it's one hit 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 They can vary a lot. Just because yours moved doesn't mean his will. If he can keep the drill straight, that is reasonable. I'd just use a drill bit as the pin though rather than music wire. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 Use the vise to press it out. Be creative with what you use. U need something on one side like a socket, to capture the pin and on the working side, you need something like a small Allen head socket to push it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sccritterkiller 473 Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Board on a concrete floor, gun on the board..stanley nail set, the yellow one will work just fine, and a BFH....It took me 3 different attempts to get mine out. I found it also helps to have another set of hands to hold the gun on the board while you knock the ever livin' shit out of the nail set.... Once you get it to move you can go back your standard punch. Edited July 15, 2013 by sccritterkiller Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 If I remember right, the pin is a taper pin. What ya bet they beat it in backwards and swaged the crap out of it! So far, beating on it has tightened up the gas plug threads so I need a screwdriver to install and remove the plug. I'm not going to risk any more damage to the gas block. I'll just have to live with Federal 3 dram bulk instead of Universal. Actually, the Federal is a few cents cheaper per bulk pack. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 Some have said that. I don't think mine were. I suspect that some just had beat up pins, and/or izzy is not consistent. I have heard people say to drive them right to left. I'd say drill that guy out. Also, how would beating mess up the threads? were you missing with the hammer and hitting the gas plug? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) I'm thinking it means he beat the shit out of the gas block to the extent where the hole for the plug is no longer a perfect circle, its been shmushed slightly into an oval. (correct me if I'm wrong) Which is hard to see happening if only the pins are getting hit. I dont know if they vary, but my pins were not tapered. I actually used a micrometer and measured the ends when I had them out, as I was curious. Edited July 16, 2013 by Turbo.M777 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 FYI, win bulk will probably run for you too right now so long as you make sure to get 3 1/4 dram eq. or heavier. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted July 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2013 It probably got warped when I had it between wood blocks in the vise while beating on the pin. I should have had the plug in when I did that. Piston still moves fine. The first thread on the plug is a little flat, but the rest look fine. I always check both internal and external threads for crap and lube them before I install the plug, as those threads are pretty fine. There was nothing in them, and a crossthread would screw them all up. I should check my auto-plug and see if that hangs up. I just picked up 3 Federal bulk packs tonight, but won't be able to go test fire until this weekend. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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