Appreciation for what bullets can do

[Squeaky 135]

Hey guys:

 

I work two part-time jobs in the medical field (thanks a lot obama). I shoot x-rays and I've gotten to see what kind of damage bullets can do to folks. It's impressive from a medical point of view. I actually rarely see gunshot victims, but a few stand out in my mind. 

 

I've seen a shoulder that got hit by a .44 Magnum. Frankly, the guy was lucky to still have an arm, but his shoulder looked severely prematurely arthritic with parts of the jacket embedded all over the joint like glitter on steroids.

 

I've helped tend to a bad guy who had also had his shoulder hit, but with a .smaller 22 magnum. A certain nerve got hit and he was left with limited use of his arm even from a .22 caliber bullet. Well ... it's still fast and it was a hallow point at point-blank range. Some folks underestimate .22's. 

 

Last week I saw the result of a 9mm pistol round on the front of someone's upper shin bone (the tibia). Plates on both sides were holding his bone together and he was lucky to have new bone growth occurring across a gap torn by the bullet. The side view showed more damage to the back of the bone and small pieces of the jacket in the mix.  

 

The pictures are much more dramatic than my words. I just wanted to reassure all of you that our ammo does work as advertised. So if any bad guys are dumb enough to mess with you, they're in for a lot of hurt. If they're lucky, they'll be only seriously wounded.

 

I'm glad to be seeing .22 Magnum appearing on store shelves again.  

[Spartacus 1,619]

Thanks for the info.

 

I remember an article written by a coroner saying that he saw a lot of different calibers as the cause of death.

 

He said by far the most effective kill shots were the heavier and high fps bullets, mainly .45 and .357Mag.

 

He said it looked like the heavier rounds were able to penetrate ribs/bone more easily and penetrate through

to vital organs. Obviously the smaller, lighter rounds can get the job done too, but he said it often took more

rounds to get the fatal hit. Lighter rounds deflect more and slow down quicker.

 

Although I've also read multiple places that the lowly .22lr has racked up more total kills than any other round.

That must be a US stat, I thought AK x39 was the top killer round world wide. The claim on .22 kills may be one

of those urban legend BS things.

 

Edit: Just did some quick searches... OLD DOJ stats would seem to indicate .38 had the highest number of

homicides with 9mm also being right up there. The 22lr was always right in there too. The .22 guns look to be

the most crime related and confiscated weapons which makes sense. I still side with the coroner on the most

effective round, he would know.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Spartacus

[Sdustin 578]

Most effective handgun round that's available imo would be 125 grain 357 mag from a6"barrel. Any rifle round will be devastating.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Ak Monty

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Edit: Just did some quick searches... OLD DOJ stats would seem to indicate .38 had the highest number of

homicides with 9mm also being right up there. The 22lr was always right in there too. The .22 guns look to be

the most crime related and confiscated weapons which makes sense. I still side with the coroner on the most

effective round, he would know.

 

I looked it up a few years ago and came across statistics that indicated the same for .22LR and .38 S&W. They have been around for a LONG time (~140 years), so it makes sense. Finding a 100 year old .22LR firearm at a garage sale or in an old barn isn't that uncommon. My oldest gun is a 1936 Sears Ranger (Marlin) .22LR that was just a cheap gun my grandpa bought NEW for hunting fur and general farm type stuff. Hard to believe that gun is nearly 80.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Maxwelhse

[Eric Pate 478]

Orthopedic radiographer here. I've seen plenty of GSWs. They can all be potentially lethal. Here are just a few things I've picked up over the years:

 

   -Inside the body, .22s bounce and deflect all over the place, even without hitting bone so its not unusual to find the bullet far away from the entry wound. While nearly impossible for a person to exsanguinate (bleed out) from such a tiny hole it will easily perforate internal organs and usually causes sepsis. They can also "go vascular" (see below).

 

   -Never underestimate the "small" concealed carry calibers. I've seen a guy take a .380 to the femur at close range and that shit shattered like glass. No bueno.

 

   -When a bullet impacts bone it typically loses its structural integrity and comes apart. So the wound is often filled with bullet and jacket fragments. The small fragments are usually left in place since you'd do more damage trying to remove them (ditto for birdshot). But you have to be careful not to leave any fragments close to a vessel cause they can "go vascular" and be transported to other areas of the body (heart, lungs, brain, etc.)where they can be lethal.

 

   -Birdshot is great for maiming people, but is usually non-fatal. I hate how often the topic of using birdshot for HD come up here. Its utter bullshit.

 

   -Secondary infections from GSWs are rare cause the bullet is typically sterile. However, rifle calibers are sometimes an exception because their high-velocity can cause a vacuum-like state that draws free air into the wound, promoting infection.

 

   -GSWs from high-powered rifles are absolutely devastating. The shock alone can be lethal. If it hits a bone, it is typically destroyed beyond reconstruction. We have a saying in orthopedics: "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken poop." This is the same as the saying "You can't nail cottage cheese to the wall." What we mean is: we cannot fix something that leaves us nothing to work with.

 

   -A "Contact" GSW is when the muzzle is touching the victim. These are god-awful because all the propellant gasses are directed into the body tissues kinda like over inflating a tire. They are very difficult to clean up.

 

I actually have an example of this on hand (no pun). This is an elderly gentleman who suffered the classic "palm-over-shotgun-muzzle" contact GSW over 20 years ago. Although it is now well healed, the extensive damage and retained foreign bodies are clearly evident.

 

  

 

[beefcakeb99 572]

We have a dear member here with the same gsw, I've seen the picture and it looked like pain to me! Thanks for your service!

[Eric Pate 478]

Bumping this thread back up to the top because I put way too much good info in here to let it die that quick.

 

Surely someone else in here has firsthand experience with ballistic trauma?

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

Bumping this thread back up to the top because I put way too much good info in here to let it die that quick.

 

Surely someone else in here has firsthand experience with ballistic trauma?

 

I've seen what 20mm HE rounds does to  human bodies, or what's left of human bodies.  it isn't pretty, think hamburger with lots of internal organs mixed in splattered everwhere .I told my my  Sr. gunner let loose a 30 round burst on a Iraqi truck trying to get back to Iraq on Highway 80. I don't believe there were enough recognizable parts to even make 1 person

 

how's that for first hand experience with ballistic trauma?  

Edited June 6, 2014 by Matthew Hopkins

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Gulf 1988, cigarette boat was no match for 23 mm chain gun, alternate HE, DU rounds. Sorry no body information, everything sank pretty quick and we moved on.

[Eric Pate 478]

Anyone here ever been shot? Anything you'd like to share?

[gunfun 3,931]

Not first hand, but I met the guy and he was showing me the wounds. His wife kicked him out and my dad let him crash on our boat for a few days.

 

When he was ~11 or so, his brother accidentally shot him with a 12 ga and birdshot from about 10 feet away in the navel. He's almost 40 and still has a hole down to the thoracic (sic) membrane. He has birdshot come up all over his body as it migrates. i.e. on the skin behind his shoulder blade, thigh... He's had hundreds removed but his doctors disagree whether or not it is better to leave them.  He "should have died" but didn't- EMS was fast on scene and brought him to the ER in one of those vacuum bag things. It hamburgered most of his intestines, and IIRC shredded a chunk of liver and a kidney but none of the pellets penetrated his spine. Obviously lots of surgeries over the years.

 

My dad also called in a gun fight in alaska in the late 70s or early 80s. He was stuck in the mud next to the combatants. A skiff full of drunk people got stranded in the mud. One of the guys tried to get romantic with one of the other guys. They were planning to hunt and were all armed. . . .  Anyway, IIRC 7 people died. All of them were shot several times with everything from .357 to deer rifles. (my dad isn't a gun guy so he didn't get the calibers, but Alaskans tend to have big stuff for the occasional moose or bruin.) When he asked the LE people about it they told him that the killing shot for each person who died was a .22lr, even though they would likely have died from the other wounds eventyally. (the survivor was the guy with the 22, and the one who made the pass at the other guy.)

[Arik 565]

Anyone here ever been shot? Anything you'd like to share?

 

Not me but I met a guy at a gunstore a few months back. He was talking to the clerk about 223/556 and the fact of how shitty Wolf is. Turns out he was at a night club a year ago when some disgruntled party go'er opens up with an AR. People ran in all directions and this guy took 3 round to the lower back. He said he didnt really feel all that bad, sat around for the ambulance. The bullets didnt exit and didnt cause much damage. The shooter was caught and in court he found out that it was Wolf ammo

[David Mark 2,452]

 

Anyone here ever been shot? Anything you'd like to share?

 

Not me but I met a guy at a gunstore a few months back. He was talking to the clerk about 223/556 and the fact of how shitty Wolf is. Turns out he was at a night club a year ago when some disgruntled party go'er opens up with an AR. People ran in all directions and this guy took 3 round to the lower back. He said he didnt really feel all that bad, sat around for the ambulance. The bullets didnt exit and didnt cause much damage. The shooter was caught and in court he found out that it was Wolf ammo

 

Three rounds in the lower back from an AR at close range and didn't exit or do much damage?

Wolf ammo or not this does not sound feasible.

[gunfun 3,931]

Maybe they went through a few walls first? but .223 tends to deflect...

Also a guy lighting up a night club with an AR sounds like national news. I think we would have heard about that.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Technically, I've been hit. Not deliberately, and not badly. A little piece of birdshot or small buckshot (not OO) from some idiot dicking around in the woods got me just above the knee. Went in and went out, just below the surface - slightly worse than a graze. The scar is smaller than some I've gotten from animal scratches and welding burns. It hurt and bled a fair amount. Walking a couple miles back to my car sucked. Didn't see a park ranger on my way out, and the local cops really didn't have much to say. Really, really glad I've never really been shot. Of course I've also had flecks of jacket hit me a few times while shooting metallic targets. Lesson well learned - never shoot spinners at close range with hollow point pistol ammo. The jacket likes to separate and fly every which way.

Edit to add: this was at a state park in Iowa, where firearms are explicitly prohibited, with the possible exception of a brief period during deer season. I wasn't carrying, and never saw the person who fired. I heard shots in the distance and figured someone was shooting trap in a field somewhere nearby. Never sought cover or thought I might be in the line of fire.

[Sdustin 578]

 

 

 

 

Anyone here ever been shot? Anything you'd like to share?

Not me but I met a guy at a gunstore a few months back. He was talking to the clerk about 223/556 and the fact of how shitty Wolf is. Turns out he was at a night club a year ago when some disgruntled party go'er opens up with an AR. People ran in all directions and this guy took 3 round to the lower back. He said he didnt really feel all that bad, sat around for the ambulance. The bullets didnt exit and didnt cause much damage. The shooter was caught and in court he found out that it was Wolf ammo

Three rounds in the lower back from an AR at close range and didn't exit or do much damage?

Wolf ammo or not this does not sound feasible.

I shot a deer stuck in a fence at about 10 feet with two rounds of wolf. Kill zone shots neither exited and it took the deer like 4 min to stop kicking.

The guts heart and lungs all looked ok. A little damage in the lungs that was it.

[Sdustin 578]

 

 

I had a friend who got shot by his dog.... no shit. He was driving and had a loaded 12 on safety he had to slam on the brakes the dog slid off the seat and pulled the trigger. It was a 500 grain slug. It entered his lower thigh exited the upper thigh entered his belly through his belt and lodged in his spine. He had a crater from his waist to his chest where they had to leave his open and gauze out all the powder burns.

 

They left the slug in his spine for two months after he got out of the hospital, then they had to remove it. It had a piece of leather belt in the slug. Guy could still walk. Still had the dog and shotgun and truck. Good guy he was, first gulf war vet.

[gunfun 3,931]

wow.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Exactly my reaction.

[Sdustin 578]

It was crazy. I would have never thought a slug at point blank wouldn't kill you. Learned to ride barrel down. He was hunting just driving a little ways.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Aside from holstered pistols, I've never ridden around with a firearm with a round in the chamber. On its face just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Glad your friend survived the experience.

[gunfun 3,931]

+1 Or some longarm equivalent of a holster. For the pump guns, I like to keep a round half in chamber when it is in a work area. 

 

Sadly, WA gives us no option. Pistol is the only gun which can be legally transported loaded by non LE.

[thebuns1 4,323]

I've been hit. Was a .45. 200gr Hornady +p hollow point. Went in my left calf. Small entrance, large exit. Barely missed the bones. ER docs say I'm lucky to have a leg. I have no problem carrying a .45.

[gunfun 3,931]

How'd that happen?

[thebuns1 4,323]

How'd that happen?

I came back from the pisser and my buddy loaded one of my guns and was fuckin with it when he was drunk. Before I could get it out of my mouth to give me the gun it went off. I was sitting down when it happened, and I'm glad I was. If I had been standing it could have been alot worse, or so I'm told.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I hope he's not a buddy any longer.

If you can forgive that kind of sheer dipshittery, you're much, much more forgiving than I ever could be.

[thebuns1 4,323]

I hope he's not a buddy any longer.

If you can forgive that kind of sheer dipshittery, you're much, much more forgiving than I ever could be.

yeah we no longer speak.

[james lambert 3,059]

 

I hope he's not a buddy any longer.

If you can forgive that kind of sheer dipshittery, you're much, much more forgiving than I ever could be.

yeah we no longer speak.

 

I hope he also has no teeth

[dayofruin 425]

A guy I know supposedly dropped a .44 magnum revolver and the bullet went in close to his wrist, exited by his elbow. It messed everything up pretty bad and he almost lost his arm. The scars look nasty. The reason I said supposedly is because it looked like he reached out to take it from someone and they pulled the trigger. I heard that someone was his wife...

[Arik 565]

 

 

Anyone here ever been shot? Anything you'd like to share?

 

Not me but I met a guy at a gunstore a few months back. He was talking to the clerk about 223/556 and the fact of how shitty Wolf is. Turns out he was at a night club a year ago when some disgruntled party go'er opens up with an AR. People ran in all directions and this guy took 3 round to the lower back. He said he didnt really feel all that bad, sat around for the ambulance. The bullets didnt exit and didnt cause much damage. The shooter was caught and in court he found out that it was Wolf ammo

 

Three rounds in the lower back from an AR at close range and didn't exit or do much damage?

Wolf ammo or not this does not sound feasible.

 

Well I dont know how close. Probably across the street or across the parking lot

Maybe they went through a few walls first? but .223 tends to deflect...

Also a guy lighting up a night club with an AR sounds like national news. I think we would have heard about that.

 

No. Have you heard about the guy who lit up a Philly club with an AK? Or the guy that lit up a Philly bus with an AK?