Woot!! 10rd mags almost done!

[Wolverine 10,360]

Well, hells bells I think I'll pick up 200 too. <_>

 

 

Yeah, but I was serious. The response from them here has been out of control. We have a lot of lurkers in SLC that come here and have been following the threads. I can probably sell most of them in a month.

 

Yeah, me too. I could sell em on Ebay if you get my drift. You would be selling them for the same price and at the same shipping rates as Z1500 right? Otherwise several "big" players could buy them up and become self appointed middlemen....at the expense of us "little" guys.

[kresk 10,063]

Since this string seems an unofficial thumbnail survey of interest, I'd go for a couple mags here too!

[Steph 5]

There better be more than 1 box of 1000 springs! I anticipate so much demand for 10 round mags that when they hit the market production won't be able to keep up, and I STILL won't be able to get one! They'll start turning up on Ebay for $200.00, and just like when I wanted a converted Saiga-12, I'll have to go to my dealer and say, "find me one...I'll pay whatever I have to." Oh, how I hope I'm wrong!

[Bravo 26 2]

Giggitygiggitygiggity!!!!!!!!

 

I'll take 5.

[Shep 0]

Well, I think I know where a chunk of my tax return is going to be spent. Thanks Z1500, glad your going the extra mile for us all.

 

 

 

Shep

[TacticalResponse 0]

When Kevin puts these mags on the market, the news is going to travel like wildfire across the Internet.

[Bayoupiper 738]

Next thing we need is a magazine pouch for them.

Any ideas?

[cscharlie 107]

Fiberglass filled, chromesilicone springs. Now you've got my attention. Good call on doing it right the first time around............................

Edited January 29, 2006 by cscharlie

[AKATTACK 5]

I had mostly lost my enthusiasm for my Saiga 12 because I don't have any mags over 5 rounds. I kept checking back to see how this was going and I must say that I feel the fever coming back!! Thanks for the good work and dedication to make this happen!! AKATTACK

[mikey1 0]

Z1500.. When you do get the mags on the market?....HOPEFULLY you WON'T sell someone 200 mags...I can see the gouging that will transpire. You should be the one who profits from any sales... some kind of reasonible limit might serve you and the customers till the market gets saturated. My 02. mikey1

[santanatwo 1]

I had mostly lost my enthusiasm for my Saiga 12 because I don't have any mags over 5 rounds. I kept checking back to see how this was going and I must say that I feel the fever coming back!! Thanks for the good work and dedication to make this happen!! AKATTACK

 

 

man, I wasn't going to say it, but since two people have already... +1

 

A reasonable limit would keep self appointed middle men from gouging everybody else.

 

Maybe with an exception for verified sandbox warriors.

 

say 10 for laymen, 20 for sand boxers?

 

The producer should profit, not middle men on E-Gay

[Snoopdogg 0]

Z1500.. When you do get the mags on the market?....HOPEFULLY you WON'T sell someone 200 mags...I can see the gouging that will transpire. You should be the one who profits from any sales... some kind of reasonible limit might serve you and the customers till the market gets saturated. My 02. mikey1

 

It's called dealer pricing. High volume gets high discounts. The middle men are the dealers who stock the product and try to resell it at mfg retail. That's not gouging, that's the way businesses work.

He can sell onezies and twoozies for retail, but selling PvtPyle 200 mags in one lump at a discount benifits the manufacturer and PvtPyle.

If you want to buy from Pyle, or Z1500, what's the difference to the consumer?

 

The mags look like they are going to be the shizzel(!). If they are priced at retail only, I'll buy two. If they are priced at dealer quantity dicount I will buy a bunch.

 

I'm excited about the synthetic and steel mags, both (prototype pics) say they are high quality.

[PvtPyle 0]

Next thing we need is a magazine pouch for them.

Any ideas?

 

We have our tactical nylon made by a company in Idaho. They do great work. We also have a guy who will make custom kydex holders for us. All we need is the mag.

 

 

HOPEFULLY you WON'T sell someone 200 mags

 

What do you care? He sets retail, or MSRP and we sell them at that. I am not here to gouge anyone on anything. I am here to make money like any other businessman, and that means I do so by supplying my customers with what they want. And so far, the demand fo them is huge. If you want them, buy them from me, him or any other stocking dealer. I am anticipating that he will have several dealers, not just me, so you have plenty of options to buy from.

 

But one BIG issue that you have overlooked in your short sightedness is that my order, or mine combined with Wolverines order of 200 mags could ensure that this project goes to it's completed in a rapid manner. That means you guys get your mags this year because he has an influx of cash and a customer that has committed to buying his product. And with more of us ordering large quantities the price goes down from the manufacturer of his individual components. That means you guys pay less. Surely you can understand THAT...

 

Additionally, that means if he needs a loan he can take our PO's to the bank for a short term loan to fund the project and not have to do it as he gets the funds together. Thats the way we buy 100 set of armor for an agency. I sure as shit am not paying for 100 sets of armor for an agency out of MY pocket. But with the PO I get the loan, get the armor, then pay off the loan when the agency pays me.

 

Maybe you should look at the big picture as to how business works, and how it could benefit you with a couple of us dealers buying large quantities, instead of the short sighted view.

Edited January 29, 2006 by PvtPyle

[Z1500 0]

It's called dealer pricing. High volume gets high discounts. The middle men are the dealers who stock the product and try to resell it at mfg retail. That's not gouging, that's the way businesses work.

He can sell onezies and twoozies for retail, but selling PvtPyle 200 mags in one lump at a discount benifits the manufacturer and PvtPyle.

If you want to buy from Pyle, or Z1500, what's the difference to the consumer?

 

The mags look like they are going to be the shizzel(!). If they are priced at retail only, I'll buy two. If they are priced at dealer quantity dicount I will buy a bunch.

 

I'm excited about the synthetic and steel mags, both (prototype pics) say they are high quality.

 

Exactly, that's how a distribution system works. Pyle isn't going to be gouging, he can sell for whatever he wants but the market system would keep him from charging $1XXea. Cause who's going to pay $1XX if other dealers are selling for half that. Now if someone wants to put these up on EBay I'm sure some ill-informed consumer would bid his way up to $150+, but that will only last untill everyone knows about them.

 

Kevin

[kresk 10,063]

It's called dealer pricing. High volume gets high discounts. The middle men are the dealers who stock the product and try to resell it at mfg retail. That's not gouging, that's the way businesses work.

He can sell onezies and twoozies for retail, but selling PvtPyle 200 mags in one lump at a discount benifits the manufacturer and PvtPyle.

If you want to buy from Pyle, or Z1500, what's the difference to the consumer?

 

The mags look like they are going to be the shizzel(!). If they are priced at retail only, I'll buy two. If they are priced at dealer quantity dicount I will buy a bunch.

 

I'm excited about the synthetic and steel mags, both (prototype pics) say they are high quality.

 

Exactly, that's how a distribution system works. Pyle isn't going to be gouging, he can sell for whatever he wants but the market system would keep him from charging $1XXea. Cause who's going to pay $1XX if other dealers are selling for half that. Now if someone wants to put these up on EBay I'm sure some ill-informed consumer would bid his way up to $150+, but that will only last untill everyone knows about them.

 

Kevin

Perfectly put! Looking forward to the product.

[Wolverine 10,360]

Z1500.. When you do get the mags on the market?....HOPEFULLY you WON'T sell someone 200 mags...I can see the gouging that will transpire. You should be the one who profits from any sales... some kind of reasonible limit might serve you and the customers till the market gets saturated. My 02. mikey1

 

+1. I'm right there with you. I see I've made my point.

 

It's called dealer pricing. High volume gets high discounts. The middle men are the dealers who stock the product and try to resell it at mfg retail. That's not gouging, that's the way businesses work.

He can sell onezies and twoozies for retail, but selling PvtPyle 200 mags in one lump at a discount benifits the manufacturer and PvtPyle.

If you want to buy from Pyle, or Z1500, what's the difference to the consumer?

 

The mags look like they are going to be the shizzel(!). If they are priced at retail only, I'll buy two. If they are priced at dealer quantity dicount I will buy a bunch.

 

I'm excited about the synthetic and steel mags, both (prototype pics) say they are high quality.

 

Exactly, that's how a distribution system works. Pyle isn't going to be gouging, he can sell for whatever he wants but the market system would keep him from charging $1XXea. Cause who's going to pay $1XX if other dealers are selling for half that. Now if someone wants to put these up on EBay I'm sure some ill-informed consumer would bid his way up to $150+, but that will only last untill everyone knows about them.

 

Kevin

 

 

It's called oligopoly and market domination. Supply and demand will dictate price. When a few select dealers have the product they dictate the inflated price.

[flcracker 0]

Wolverine wrote:

 

Supply and demand will dictate price. When a few select dealers have the product they dictate the inflated price.

 

Not if the manufacturer and the retailer enter into a binding agreement that restricts the retailer from selling at more than the MSRP. Proper contract language would also restrict the middleman's (wholesale distributor's) wholesale price to the retailer, if the manufacturer doesn't sell directly to the retailer.

 

It sounds like Kevin knows what he's doing re: manufacturing, pricing, distribution, etc.

 

No offense intended Sir, but Wolverine's concerns don't seem to jive with the real world of commercial manufacturing and distribution. I understand his concerns about price-gouging, but as long as this isn't a one-time manufacturing run, it's hard to see how anyone other than unscrupulus end-users (retail purchasers) trying to make a buck could jack up prices above the MSRP, if the proper business controls (sales and distribution contract clauses) are in place. If a large-order distributor tried to jack up prices in violation of his sales and distribution contract, the intimate nature of this market would suggest that the manufacturer would find out pretty quickly, and would then would have a valid claim for a judgement against the distributor. Not to mention that it would be the last order ever filled for him.

 

flcracker

Edited January 29, 2006 by flcracker

[Wolverine 10,360]

Wolverine wrote:

 

Supply and demand will dictate price. When a few select dealers have the product they dictate the inflated price.

 

Not if the manufacturer and the retailer enter into a binding agreement that restricts the retailer from selling at more than the MSRP. Proper contract language would also restrict the middleman's (wholesale distributor's) wholesale price to the retailer, if the manufacturer doesn't sell directly to the retailer.

 

It sounds like Kevin knows what he's doing re: manufacturing, pricing, distribution, etc.

 

No offense intended Sir, but Wolverine's concerns don't seem to jive with the real world of commercial manufacturing and distribution. I understand his concerns about price-gouging, but as long as this isn't a one-time manufacturing run, it's hard to see how anyone other than unscrupulus end-users (retail purchasers) trying to make a buck could jack up prices above the MSRP, if the proper business controls (sales and distribution contract clauses) are in place. If a large-order distributor tried to jack up prices in violation of his sales and distribution contract, the intimate nature of this market would suggest that the manufacturer would find out pretty quickly, and would then would have a valid claim for a judgement against the distributor. Not to mention that it would be the last order ever filled for him.

 

flcracker

 

 

Nothing was said about a binding agreement. Z1500 said he can charge whatever he wants for them with the assumption the market will dictate price. It will.......since the market can be controlled by a select few who buy up the bulk of the mags.

 

Kevin's quote: "Exactly, that's how a distribution system works. Pyle isn't going to be gouging, he can sell for whatever he wants but the market system would keep him from charging $1XXea. Cause who's going to pay $1XX if other dealers are selling for half that. Now if someone wants to put these up on EBay I'm sure some ill-informed consumer would bid his way up to $150+, but that will only last untill everyone knows about them."

 

Don't forget their are several dealer/distributors (TopGlock, SaigaCentral, etc) in RAAC's network and they are all going to want these mags to sell with their S-12's. Will they all buy in 200 piece lots....or more?

 

http://www.raacfirearms.com/distributors.htm

 

I have a better sense of business reality than some folks seem to think. Watch and see what develops.

 

Wolverine

[flcracker 0]

Wolverine - you do have a point, Sir - I missed Z1500's line about "whatever price they wish".

 

I hope Z1500 has a decent attorney draw up his sales and distribution agreements to avoid this. A little forethought will avoid alot of backlash - it should be easy enough to control with a good contract.

 

flcracker

Edited January 29, 2006 by flcracker

[mikey1 0]

Well, Whatever????.. AS of today...WHAT MAGAZINES???... I guess we are all a little "antzy"??The Saiga 12's are not of much use with out a few mags for some of us... POSTERS,your right about the EBAY postings, lots of times bidders pay more than they should for stuff. I'm sure we have all been waiting for these mags. (I'm sorry, but I will not send my C Card # to Russia)...(with Love???). LO, the day when we will have to make the decision...steel or plastic mags! WON'T THAT BE SOMETHING !! PVT PILE, your right, I'm not a "businessman", BUT I am a customer and expect fair treatment. I buy from seller's who have been honest and give good service and fair pricing, not always the lowest price. After the SHARKS are done feeding...?, we, mortals can dine on the scraps?? STAY tuned for the continuing SAGA(?) of the SAGIA MAGS??mikey1

[gunnergrif 0]

Haven't been on the boards much, playing catchup on all the new stuff. Is there a pre order list or anything of the sort for these mags?

 

Not sure if antzy is the word with all the posts I've seen on this forum and others....this is going to be big no doubt about it.

[rs39 0]

And in time for tax return season, mighty grateful!!!

[PvtPyle 0]

BUT I am a customer and expect fair treatment. I buy from seller's who have been honest and give good service and fair pricing, not always the lowest price.

 

Wel I am a businessman, and I understand that price gouging may get you some money in your pockets early, but someone will come along and offer the product at a reasonable price and then all the customers you gouged will be resentfull and bash you all over the net. THAT will kill your business.

 

I also understand that taking care of your customers will pay much bigger rewards in the long term than a few high priced sales early on. And for every customer you take care of, they will tell their friends. And their friends will believe them over the dealer because the customer has ownership and an emotional stake in the product they love. So when they sahre their product with their friends, their friends get excited about it. And when they ask where to get it, they will take their friends recomendation as to where to spend their money.

 

You guys can rest easy, I am in this game for the long term and here to provide long term service to my customers. I am also all about MSRP. I actually prefer them to open pricing system. Thats way the game is played with the big boys in business and it works. If people gouge, they and the product get a bad name. If they sell too low, the product gets devauled and looses its preceived worth. Next thing you know, the producer is out of business because the profit margins are too low to support the selling dealer and sales stop. It is business guys, thats the way the game works.

[hartzpad 0]

All of you can rest easy about PvtPyle and FBMG. I somewhat know Larry his business partner (he was my CCW instructor) and he is a standup guy. He is very respected in the firearms community here in Utah, they are enthusiasts and are in it for the good of the sport not to gouge their customers or anyone else. I spoke with Larry for 10 minutes about Saiga 12's at the last gunshow here, he and I both had Saiga 12's and 8 round Izhmash mags for a few years now, he is devoted to Saigas to use in 3 gun competition.

 

I like to claim that I had one of the first legally converted Saiga 12's. I converted mine 2 weeks before the AWB sunsetted and put it all together the minute the ban ended at midnight. That is when I found out about having to trim the Tapco G2 hammer to work in the Saiga 12, modifying the FCG retainer plate to fit the Saiga 12 and cutting the PG nut hole.

 

I will be buying 3-5 of Z1500s mags and maybe one or two of the other metal mags.

[CGuns 3]

Z1500: Please check your E-mail. Something of interest for you.

 

 

Regards, CGuns

[ForGreatJustice 1]

Meeting DOD standards is a compliance PIA from a documentation standpoint. Ever seen one of their purchasing specification manuals for a single item? It would have to be way way enticing for me to ever consider doing business with Uncle SAM.

 

 

Yeah, I've seen it...it's pretty ugly!

 

I can't wait for these mags. Yeah, I've got a chunk of change set aside. I don't want to re-sell, but I want enough mags that I never have to worry about them again.

[santanatwo 1]

[in the end, we'l need to rely on z1500's good judgement

 

I'm sure you've all seen the $150 8 rounders on the auction boards (not just ebay)

 

if people with the bucks to spend want to step in and buy him out, and then gouge the rest of us, that's free market alright,

 

z1500 has the final say so.

 

a binding contract would prevent any dry forcible soddomy

[Wolverine 10,360]

[in the end, we'l need to rely on z1500's good judgement

 

I'm sure you've all seen the $150 8 rounders on the auction boards (not just ebay)

 

if people with the bucks to spend want to step in and buy him out, and then gouge the rest of us, that's free market alright,

 

z1500 has the final say so.

 

a binding contract would prevent any dry forcible soddomy

 

+1.

[Snoopdogg 0]

RANT

 

I don't see what the problem is. Contracts, ethics, gouging? If PVT Pyle, or any other distributer sells higher than mfg suggested retail, then just buy them from the mfg (Z1500). Again, what is the problem?

 

Ebay? People have and will always place readily available items on Ebay and get much more than retail for them. It is the bidder who is his own enemy, not the mfg or distributors. Price too high? Don't bid.

 

As far as the price, half you guys on this board have driven the price up

Z1500 "$40"

Z1500 "better springs", better material, etc"

 

Responses "I'll pay more" "I'll pay whatever" "Russia wants $100, I'll pay $80" "blah, blah, blah"

 

When a mfg says $40, and then later excitedly tells about upgrades in the quality and manufacturing as the prototyping moves along, you are supposed to get excited about the quality. You don't 'encourage' him to raise the price, which a bunch of you inadvertently did (in your posts). So don't complain about the price (middlemen, ebay, gouging) now.

 

And a last comment to the clock-watchers, and complainers. These guys will get the mags done when they get them done. These are gun magazines, not an IV of plasma. Don't like the time frame? Go whittle your own and stop bitching.

Asking for ETA's? Why? He is trying like hell to get them done. When he misses his ETA's (guesses) then people climb on his ass with rolling eyes, and want more ETA (guesses).

 

These guys are building them as best they can, they cannot set their entire lives on hold (real job, family, etc) to get them to us a couple months quicker. Be patient, and they will be here eventually, and worth the wait.

 

Rant over.

 

 

My hats off to both of the guys. I am a machinist and know what went into the metal mag (dies), beautiful mag. Injection molding dies are beyond my ability, and I am absolutely blown away by Z's synthetic mags. Frigg'n beautiful.

Edited January 29, 2006 by snoopdogg

[Wolverine 10,360]

There is no manufacturers suggested retail price. Z1500 has stated "he" (Pvt. Pyle from FMBG), and I assume anyone else, can sell them for whatever they want. Given the fact FMBG sells the IZ-108 S-12 shotgun for $25 more than Saiga Central one might conclude the price of mags may be more as well.....particularly if he is holding vast quantities.

 

As far as the anticipation and prompting, folks have experienced the forces of the market for a fair spell and have not forgotten Daewoo and the .308 mag. saga. The reaction is normal and predictable.

 

I plan on buying more than a few myself. Want to buy some?

 

Wolverine