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Barrel refuses to take a crown


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#1 kamauxx

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 07:08 PM

Greetings everyone. Been a long time since I've posted here but I'm still a Saiga lover, though my stock is down from 3 to 1.

The 1 in question is a 223 that I chopped, filed, sanded on for a couple hours today. I attempted the well document method of using brass machine screws and grinding compound for crowning.

After going through 6 brass screws and out of desperation trying out a steel screw (all told at least an hour of "work") I have absolutely zero crown on my barrel.

Is this a Saiga issue (harder steel/chrome lined barrel)? Or am I'm some sort of idiot? Don't answer that last question.

For reference here it was my barrel looks like after I finally gave up 30 min ago. (Ignore the lapping compound in the barrel, I haven't cleaned it yet).

20151117_173725-1_zpssq7tq20u.jpg


Anyone have any idea what the issue is?

Edited by kamauxx, 17 November 2015 - 07:10 PM.

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#2 unforgiven

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 07:25 PM

An actual crown, that actually does what it is intended to do....

 

has to be cut to the thousandth of an inch true to the bore on a a perfectly square cut and at eleven degrees.

 

any poppycock using compound or screws is pure masturbation 

Take it to a machinist 


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#3 kamauxx

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:31 PM

Well, Sir, I'll have you know, I actually enjoy masturbation.

Dude, if you have no answer there's no reason for you to bother.
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#4 unforgiven

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:57 PM

I told you the truth

I gave you the solution

 

no malcontent intended

I just despise these imbecilic supposed solutions ignorant people purport as truth 



#5 Mullet Man

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 09:37 PM

Kinda looks like it took a crown to me. What are you expecting?

BTW, It does not have to be cut at eleven degrees. As long as there is a sufficient and uniform crown, testing has shown (search for the blogs) that a specific number does not perform better than another. 11° is just the industry standard for a target crown.

If you truly must DIY, order a Manson Reamers military rifle crowning kit, for about $120. I've done all my .30 cal rifles with one and it's very effective at cutting hard chrome lined barrels and squaring the muzzle. It's a great tool that will pay for itself!
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#6 Sim_Player

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 10:43 PM

Midway USA had a tutorial showing the brass screw method.

The Saiga barrel is probably just good hammer-forged steel, as we should expect in an AK.

As long as it is clean and concentric, it should be accurate.

#7 imarangemaster

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 12:54 AM

When Saigas first came out, we used to tease about them being made out of Tank steel left over from WW2 German tanks!  Saiga steel is VERY hard!


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#8 kamauxx

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:00 AM

I guess after I finish re-re-re building it this weekend I'll see how it shoots. If its wonky I'll buy a crowning kit

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#9 Mullet Man

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 09:28 AM

Muzzle crowning tool kit for military rifles, by …:
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#10 unforgiven

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 10:40 AM

That's  certainly good enough for your average AK or milspec type firearm.

 

No doubt the quality of the crown produced would be greater than the expected accuracy of the firearm.


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#11 kamauxx

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 04:22 PM

I tried a different lapping compound to see if it was gritty enough to bite the Russian steel. Turned out good enough (for a masturbation job) for it's intended purpose.

20151118_151615-1_zpshmusp94v.jpg

2015-11-18%2015.27.59_zpskvrgvew7.jpg

Edited by kamauxx, 18 November 2015 - 04:28 PM.

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#12 unforgiven

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 04:35 PM

im sure its perfect for your gun


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#13 mancat

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 05:07 PM

I have done the machine screw job with good results ONCE. The next time I tried it (shortened same barrel further) , it was impossible to get right, and ended up borrowing a crown tool with pilot.

I'll never do it without the tool again.


If yours is concentric and has an even depth it will probably be fine.
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#14 Mullet Man

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 06:11 PM

I'm just curious what the hell you used to cut the barrel with? Fuck!
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#15 kamauxx

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:11 PM

Butter knife. Very dull butter knife.
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#16 poolingmyignorance

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:37 PM

That's  certainly good enough for your average AK or milspec type firearm.

 

No doubt the quality of the crown produced would be greater than the expected accuracy of the firearm.

People really don't grasp how much effect the crown has on accuracy.

 

 

On a side note, for those whom might be interested. 11 degree recess isn't exactly necessary. It's to provide protection for the crown. A perfectly square end with a flash hider would suffice, but as Unforgiven said it must be within 0.001-0.002" if you expect it to have any positive effect on your accuracy.


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#17 Long Shot

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 10:16 PM

How critical is a "perfect crown" ?
Interesting article on the subject.

http://www.longrange...fle-crown-1.php
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#18 ChileRelleno

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 03:10 AM

nevermind


Edited by ChileRelleno, 21 November 2015 - 03:12 AM.

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#19 G O B

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 09:46 AM

A bad crown can be fixed with a small counter bore, like old Mosin's.


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#20 308saiga

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 06:28 PM

Get a 11 degree crowning tool:

http://www.brownells...0-628-2614.aspx


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#21 kamauxx

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 01:03 PM

It's already been crowned, threaded, zero'd, and taken a deer. Lol. Thanks to the helpers and doubters.
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#22 Pyzik

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 10:37 AM

It's already been crowned, threaded, zero'd, and taken a deer. Lol. Thanks to the helpers and doubters.

Good job man.  Your last pic looked good.

Pics of it completed?  I said I was going to do mine myself for literally YEARS... Was always to nervous to do it.  I finally sent it off to be done.


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#23 308saiga

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 01:30 PM

I just saw those vids today, the only difference, I would use cutting oil before/during the crowning... Also never use any electrical saw to chop the barrel, it will heat up and F'up your barrel (always use a hack saw), that was not a hack saw LOL....  

 

Welcome to the boards...


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#24 kamauxx

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 06:41 PM


It's already been crowned, threaded, zero'd, and taken a deer. Lol. Thanks to the helpers and doubters.

Good job man. Your last pic looked good.

Pics of it completed? I said I was going to do mine myself for literally YEARS... Was always to nervous to do it. I finally sent it off to be done.
Since the last picture I also threaded the barrel, added a brake, and refinished it. Unfortunately I used too much tape on the scope so I have to redo that tomorrow.

20151129_195250_zps5hboc7ip.jpg


BTW, your pics were the reason I got the magpul handguard. Your rifle looks great!


I just saw those vids today, the only difference, I would use cutting oil before/during the crowning... Also never use any electrical saw to chop the barrel, it will heat up and F'up your barrel (always use a hack saw), that was not a hack saw LOL....

Welcome to the boards...

Lol, it was a hacksaw with 2 fine metal blades. The roughness came from me turning the barrel between slices instead of leaving it in one position. Initially I thought that would be best. Now I know better.

I signed up about 7 years ago, but thanks for the welcoming.

Edited by kamauxx, 01 December 2015 - 06:45 PM.

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#25 Pyzik

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 07:40 AM

 

 

It's already been crowned, threaded, zero'd, and taken a deer. Lol. Thanks to the helpers and doubters.

Good job man. Your last pic looked good.

Pics of it completed? I said I was going to do mine myself for literally YEARS... Was always to nervous to do it. I finally sent it off to be done.
Since the last picture I also threaded the barrel, added a brake, and refinished it. Unfortunately I used too much tape on the scope so I have to redo that tomorrow.

20151129_195250_zps5hboc7ip.jpg


BTW, your pics were the reason I got the magpul handguard. Your rifle looks great!


I just saw those vids today, the only difference, I would use cutting oil before/during the crowning... Also never use any electrical saw to chop the barrel, it will heat up and F'up your barrel (always use a hack saw), that was not a hack saw LOL....

Welcome to the boards...

Lol, it was a hacksaw with 2 fine metal blades. The roughness came from me turning the barrel between slices instead of leaving it in one position. Initially I thought that would be best. Now I know better.

I signed up about 7 years ago, but thanks for the welcoming.

 

Thanks for the compliment.

Your rifle looks good.  I can't wait for mine to get back!  cry.gif


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#26 Unknown Poster

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 12:45 AM

The crown needs to be dead center on the bore.

You can use a round head slotted screw in a drill with coarse lapping compound first. Move the drill in a circle with your hands make it a even round circle. Once it's roughed in switch to the fine lapping compound and repeat till done.

If it's accurate at 100yds it's ok.

Lapping the crown with a round head screw or rivet is the old timers way of doing a recrown.

You did a good job son.

Edited by Unknown Poster, 29 December 2015 - 12:51 AM.





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