Just got back from range with my DDI-12 and birdshot, few questions

[Sublimeon24s 17]

I just got back from the range for a quick test since getting my gun back from DDI........The good news is I had no issues with the action locking up like before sending it in. This range is a joke, you can ONLY shoot this particular birdshot shown below, or pay $10 for (5) rounds of federal buckshot. I wound up buying another 25rd box of the birdshot, and (1) 5rd box of buckshot (my ass still burns from the prison style rape) just to calm my racing mind.

 

My gun would not cycle the birdshot for nothing, even with the gas on the furthest open setting (4 / large dot). It was the typical fire, manually rack back to eject spent shell, fire, repeat repeat repeat lots of people have experienced with Saiga / VEPR 12's and low brass loads.  It shot the whopping 5 rounds of buckshot just fine so at least thats good, as this is an HD gun and realistically I never plan on putting birdshot through it after these tests. I will be back at the range Saturday with 125rds of Estate 00 so time will tell how that goes. 

 

What I did notice with the bird shot was the spent shell pretty much stayed in the gun (as shown) until I manually racked the action to eject it. On my VEPR 12, the shell at least always made it half way out the ejection port when the carrier would slam shut on it. This happened across both 5rd mags, an 8rd SGM, and a 12rd pro mag drum. Is that of concern?

 

Besides the 5rds of buckshot, this gun has had ZERO heavy loads put through it, this pink birdshot crap below is all the gun has had ran through it since being taken brand new out of the box. 

 

Is my gun 100% diagnosed as under gassed at this point, or do I need to put more heavy rounds through it to break it in before expecting these light loads to run reliably, regardless of gas setting, and making that determination? 

 

The ammo

 

 

 

 

 

What would happen after every single shot

 

 

 

 

 

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Federal got the ammo color right!

 

Running high brass through it probably won't make it run better on target loads.

 

Mike

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

Try some 3 dram eqv. 1200+fps 1-1/8oz 7-1/2 shot. That stuff you bought is about the rock-bottom power level. You may need to add a couple of gas ports or enlarge the existing ones. Did you check how many it actually has?

Edited March 24, 2016 by Heartbreaker

[Sublimeon24s 17]

Try some 3 dram eqv. 1200+fps 1-1/8oz 7-1/2 shot. That stuff you bought is about the rock-bottom power level. You may need to add a couple of gas ports or enlarge the existing ones. Did you check how many it actually has?

 

from what I was able to see looking into the front of the gas block with the puck / regulator removed, it looked like it had (4) in a diamond shape. I could not see in there good enough to see if they were all drilled all the way through though. Using a flash light with my extremely limited view, none of them look like a clean hole that goes all the way through but the viewing angle gave did not really allow me to tell

Edited March 24, 2016 by Sublimeon24s

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

Unbend a paperclip and you can check the holes easily.

[Spacehog 2,219]

You can also stick a flashlight / bore light in the barrel in a dark room and examine the gas ports through the gas block. It will show you very quickly if any are blocked or occluded.

[Sublimeon24s 17]

You can also stick a flashlight / bore light in the barrel in a dark room and examine the gas ports through the gas block. It will show you very quickly if any are blocked or occluded.

 

Perfect, thanks. Just beamed my surefire x300 down the barrel and there are deff (4) gas port holes with light showing. No idea if they are the correct size, but the (4) go through

Edited March 24, 2016 by Sublimeon24s

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The Federal Top Gun is about 1150 or so, which is slow. Get some Federal Multi-purpose and various boxes of Winchester AA 1200 fps and faster and let us know how that goes. The Multi-purpose is usually about $22 or so per 100 and the AA is around $8 per 25. Firing cheap loads can be great for training and just getting a little trigger time.

Edited March 24, 2016 by evlblkwpnz

[Sublimeon24s 17]

The Federal Top Gun is about 1150 or so, which is slow. Get some Federal Multi-purpose and various boxes of Winchester AA 1200 fps and faster and let us know how that goes. The Multi-purpose is usually about $22 or so per 100 and the AA is around $8 per 25. Firing cheap loads can be great for training and just getting a little trigger time.

 

Thanks for chiming in, Ill have to try to make it to an outdoor range somewhere in central FL that allows the public

 

This particular indoor range only lets you shoot that exact federal birdshot i posted, and the other indoor ranges I go to only allow buckshot / slugs, no birdshot at all. So I really cant test other types of birdshot unless I find an outdoor range you do not have to be a member to go to

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Well, if you are ever in NE FL I have a great place to go where we can raise hell with whatever we want as long as there isn't a pistol or 3 Gun match going on.

 

Maybe this will help you find one in your area....

http://www.muck-boy.com/Shooting%20Ranges/Muckboy%20Florida%20Shooting%20Range%20Page.htm

Edited March 25, 2016 by evlblkwpnz

[gunfun 3,931]

You need to purchase ammo by the numbers. The data on that box lid should have told you it wouldn't run before you even put it in the mag.

 

Quit thinking that the power of ammo has anything to do with the height of the brass or the type of projectile. Buckshot isn't more powerful than birdshot. High muzzle energy ammo is more powerful than low muzzle energy ammo. Weight and Velocity tell you what you need to know and everything else is irrelevant.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

You need to purchase ammo by the numbers. The data on that box lid should have told you it wouldn't run before you even put it in the mag.

 

Quit thinking that the power of ammo has anything to do with the height of the brass or the type of projectile. Buckshot isn't more powerful than birdshot. High muzzle energy ammo is more powerful than low muzzle energy ammo. Weight and Velocity tell you what you need to know and everything else is irrelevant.

+1 weight vs velocity = charge, in a general sense

 

I have found there is an increasing variety of ammo that does not show dram eq. Manufacturers are trying to get away from it. Some doesn't even show fps. I have even contacted ammo manufacturers who could not give a good answer on what dram eq a certain ammo is. From what I have noticed, it looks like each 55 fps increase (at 1-1/8 oz) means an additional  1/4 dram increase. Start at assuming 1-1/8 oz at 1200 fps second is 3 dram. We really need a formula for this that is easy to apply. I'm not an algebra guy and after a few beers I'm not even going to try (I took a real day off for a change), but I assume you could come up with something easy and enlightening since your schooling is much more fresh than mine. Apply your genius. We need a formula we can do on our phone standing in front of the ammo at Walmart. You would be a hero to many. In the meantime, I'll have another beer and relax

[gunfun 3,931]

I've found that when people ask about ammo like that, googling the UPC or item # will show the velocity within a couple of clicks. If the MFR doesn't mention it directly, one of the major retailers will.

[saltydecimator 482]

or in high school (middle school?) physics terms, Force = mass x acceleration. 

 

glad to see you over here, read in that "ok ddi its December" thread on ak files that you were having problems and started new thread complaining about reliability?  gotta link to thread? i joined over there but lost password, and they all so hateful over there i dont care to find said password.   long story long folks more to the point over here with less fighiting and dick measuring....

 

basically you gonna need to do what we do to saigas or veprs, add gas.  since you cant change the ammo only way to get more force isto get more gas to your action. 

 

or, sell your ddi on armslist, add $100 bucks to what they give you, and buy a vepr (re-read, you have one, get another!!!!!!).... those can be hit and miss with birdshot, but typically more hit....

 

yes, if action doesnt completely cycle its cause it only had enough Force to make it halfway open, and when it was supposed to recock the hammer, it didnt have the juice, that point it just gives up and comes back forward, but since shell didnt go far enough aft, it didnt get kicked off the ejector, and jams on the chamber....

 

will ddi port it or will the gun shatter when too much abuse is imparted onto the operating parts?

 

doesnt china like use the wrong steel all the time in everything?  that was furys problem, no heat treat, no (apparent) effort to decide what parts needed to be strong, and what didnt?  long story long, they just made a fascimile of a a shotgun, they didnt actually make a shotgun... sure you can shoot it but its more of a wall hanger (opinion).... until they prove other wise im gonna keep doggin them.  oh, stop shopping at walmart, and thatll prove that cost is your only concern.   really, i would only buy one of these if they were $300.   6 is just  retarded. must be export/import tarriffs?  i mean why buy a wall hanger for 6 when you can have real deal for 7?!?!?!!??!! defies logic, and peoples math abilities...

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by saltydecimator

[james lambert 3,059]

 

You need to purchase ammo by the numbers. The data on that box lid should have told you it wouldn't run before you even put it in the mag.

 

Quit thinking that the power of ammo has anything to do with the height of the brass or the type of projectile. Buckshot isn't more powerful than birdshot. High muzzle energy ammo is more powerful than low muzzle energy ammo. Weight and Velocity tell you what you need to know and everything else is irrelevant.

+1 weight vs velocity = charge, in a general sense

 

I have found there is an increasing variety of ammo that does not show dram eq. Manufacturers are trying to get away from it. Some doesn't even show fps. I have even contacted ammo manufacturers who could not give a good answer on what dram eq a certain ammo is. From what I have noticed, it looks like each 55 fps increase (at 1-1/8 oz) means an additional  1/4 dram increase. Start at assuming 1-1/8 oz at 1200 fps second is 3 dram. We really need a formula for this that is easy to apply. I'm not an algebra guy and after a few beers I'm not even going to try (I took a real day off for a change), but I assume you could come up with something easy and enlightening since your schooling is much more fresh than mine. Apply your genius. We need a formula we can do on our phone standing in front of the ammo at Walmart. You would be a hero to many. In the meantime, I'll have another beer and relax

 

Wow....almost unbelievable 

[JonWienke 131]

Energy = Mass * Velocity^2

 

A 10% increase in mass with equal velocity is a 10% increase in energy.

 

But a 10% increase in velocity with equal mass is a 21% increase in energy.

 

The only wrinkle is that powder charge and wad are part of the mass, not just the shot payload.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

fps x weight / 450 = dram eq

1200 x 1.125 / 450 = 3

1300 x 1.125 / 450 = 3.25

1330 x 1.250 / 450 = 3.694r

 

It is reasonably close, but there is something missing. I never liked algebra.

[JonWienke 131]

The velocity term should be squared, not a simple multiply.

 

Energy = mass x velocity squared.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The velocity term should be squared, not a simple multiply.

 

Energy = mass x velocity squared.

Can you show an example? I'm apparently applying it incorrectly.

[james lambert 3,059]

LMAO

[Sublimeon24s 17]

 

 

or, sell your ddi on armslist, add $100 bucks to what they give you, and buy a vepr (re-read, you have one, get another!!!!!!).... those can be hit and miss with birdshot, but typically more hit....

 

 

 

 

Did just that.......got one of the fixed tubular stock models from K-var ordered, (2) factory 8rd mags, (2) factory 10rd mags, Magpul pistol Grip, CSS gas puc, and the ALG / Tromix trigger

 

I already got a JTE comp muzzle brake and ill just need to get a US handguard to make it compliant with the OEM 8/10 rd mags

Edited March 30, 2016 by Sublimeon24s

[gunfun 3,931]

https://billstclair.com/energy.html

[JonWienke 131]

IF 1.25oz @ 1200FPS = "3 drams", then the correct formula is:

 

1200 x 1200 x 1.25 / 600,000 = 3

 

So if the velocity was 1300FPS instead, then you would calculate:

 

1300 x 1300 x 1.25 / 600,000 = 3.52 drams.

[james lambert 3,059]

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=3+dram+loads

[Long Shot 1,287]

 

^^Or you could use something like this^^

[InTTruder 11]

 

The velocity term should be squared, not a simple multiply.

 

Energy = mass x velocity squared.

Can you show an example? I'm apparently applying it incorrectly.

 

 

Momentum = mass x velocity

KE (kinetic energy) = mass x velocity^2

 

Science.   It's how God intended us to run the world.

[saltydecimator 482]

lolz i put up the math thing and then had it all wrong, DEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP!

[JonWienke 131]

 

 

The velocity term should be squared, not a simple multiply.

Energy = mass x velocity squared.

 

Can you show an example? I'm apparently applying it incorrectly.

 

Momentum = mass x velocity

KE (kinetic energy) = mass x velocity^2

...and since "drams" originally referred to the volumetric measure of black powder in the cartridge, using the energy equation rather than the momentum equation makes the most sense, because the amount of powder in a cartridge is directly proportional to the energy of the cartridge.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

IF 1.25oz @ 1200FPS = "3 drams", then the correct formula is:

 

1200 x 1200 x 1.25 / 600,000 = 3

 

So if the velocity was 1300FPS instead, then you would calculate:

 

1300 x 1300 x 1.25 / 600,000 = 3.52 drams.

Is the 600,000 number just something that made it work correctly or is there more to that number? I'm just trying to fully understand the origin of it since it is not part of the original formula. I appreciate your efforts and contribution.

[JonWienke 131]

It's the conversion factor needed to convert feet/second^2 and ounces to "drams". If you were using grains or grams or meters/second, you'd need a different conversion factor.