Azkamidaka 26 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 There are a whole mess of things that I dont know about the Saiga 12. I have noticed that the AA12 has come into discussion once or twice around here, so I decided to ask the people who know. What are the Pros and Cons in comparing the AA12 to the Saiga 12? Off the top of my head the AA12 looks a little weaker than the Saiga does. But the AA12 doesnt need to be cleaned or oiled and can be washed in soap and water. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) There are a whole mess of things that I dont know about the Saiga 12. I have noticed that the AA12 has come into discussion once or twice around here, so I decided to ask the people who know. What are the Pros and Cons in comparing the AA12 to the Saiga 12? Off the top of my head the AA12 looks a little weaker than the Saiga does. But the AA12 doesnt need to be cleaned or oiled and can be washed in soap and water. Oh yeah the AA12 also has a 20 round drum mag. Hmmm, you realize that the AA12 has the "go fast" position on the selector? As such, not too many folks will be able to weigh in with actual usage. Maybe someone in the military, the word is they are being tested in the sandbox. IIRC, the AA12 was the culmination of the USAS12 design. Don't remember names and dates or ?? but the USAS12 rights were ceded to someone who continued development and feels like they finally have the design right. As such, a comparison with the USAS12 might be more appropriate. If you agree, get thee to the search engine, as I think there was a discussion a year or so back (Tony Rumore, Wakal and maybe even me would have posted some input). WAKAL has shot them side by side and has much good info. HTH, -K Edited February 22, 2006 by kmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
osprey21 5 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) AA-12 video Edited February 22, 2006 by osprey21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tomovich 0 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 That just does NOT look like any fun for some reason........... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctown 0 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 If it is in fact "re-coiless", it would be SWEET !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 If it is in fact "re-coiless", it would be SWEET !! the recoil is supposdedly like that of a .22 mag, solider of fortune did and article on the AA12 a while back (ie over a year). Personally the way I look at it is i have 2 saiga 12s in the safe and the fact that i'm not a LEO or have some goverment contracts i'm probally not going to get to play around with an AA12, so i'll just stick with my saiga Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Yah....the AA12 is great...except for the 3K price tag and the super-limited availability. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jsr5 0 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 someone above mentiond the AA12 as a continuation of the USAS but I thought the USAS was a BullPUP Until now I ain't never seen anything like the AA12 pictured. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stokstad 4 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 (edited) I like how they say its the only full auto shotgun. They have never seen this site obviuosly. I think the full auto S12 has a higher rate if fire than that thing and looks a thousand times better. Dang looked for the vid but couldnt find it Edited February 23, 2006 by stokstad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 (edited) someone above mentiond the AA12 as a continuation of the USAS but I thought the USAS was a BullPUP Until now I ain't never seen anything like the AA12 pictured. USAS12 looks like a M16 on steroids. Here's a pic Edited February 23, 2006 by kmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I fired a full Auto Saiga the one in the famus Tom Cole video that was on the net, way back and let me tell you this that thing kicks like a mule! Maybe Cobra could post a pic of Fullchoke being lifted off the ground firing it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 sounds like he needs a tromix muzzle break. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 someone above mentiond the AA12 as a continuation of the USAS but I thought the USAS was a BullPUP Until now I ain't never seen anything like the AA12 pictured. USAS12 looks like a M16 on steroids. Here's a pic There is a rumor floating around on one of the gun forums that someone purchased the manufacturing rights to the USAS 12 and modified the design so it's now its possibly the AA 12. Internally, I think it's similar and it happens to use a drum mag (sorry, used the d. word) that resembles the USAS 12 20 round mag. I'd rather have the USAS 12 if I could afford one. RonSwin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azkamidaka 26 Posted February 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 There are a whole mess of things that I dont know about the Saiga 12. I have noticed that the AA12 has come into discussion once or twice around here, so I decided to ask the people who know. What are the Pros and Cons in comparing the AA12 to the Saiga 12? Off the top of my head the AA12 looks a little weaker than the Saiga does. But the AA12 doesnt need to be cleaned or oiled and can be washed in soap and water. Oh yeah the AA12 also has a 20 round drum mag. Hmmm, you realize that the AA12 has the "go fast" position on the selector? As such, not too many folks will be able to weigh in with actual usage. Maybe someone in the military, the word is they are being tested in the sandbox. Very funny, but I thought it was only available in full auto. Also I thought you could own a full auto firearm without LE credentials, like a dealers licence or manufacturer's license. Well anyway that's why ive decided to contribute to this board, to learn what I dont know and erase all the crap that I...dont know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 There are a whole mess of things that I dont know about the Saiga 12. I have noticed that the AA12 has come into discussion once or twice around here, so I decided to ask the people who know. What are the Pros and Cons in comparing the AA12 to the Saiga 12? Off the top of my head the AA12 looks a little weaker than the Saiga does. But the AA12 doesnt need to be cleaned or oiled and can be washed in soap and water. Oh yeah the AA12 also has a 20 round drum mag. Hmmm, you realize that the AA12 has the "go fast" position on the selector? As such, not too many folks will be able to weigh in with actual usage. Maybe someone in the military, the word is they are being tested in the sandbox. Very funny, but I thought it was only available in full auto. Also I thought you could own a full auto firearm without LE credentials, like a dealers licence or manufacturer's license. Well anyway that's why ive decided to contribute to this board, to learn what I dont know and erase all the crap that I...dont know. someone correct me if i'm wrong but, you can own a full auto firearm, if your state says so. There are only certian ones you can own, pre-86 i belive is their classification. Anything made/imported after 86 is dealer/ law enforcement only. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 (edited) someone correct me if i'm wrong but, you can own a full auto firearm, if your state says so. There are only certian ones you can own, pre-86 i belive is their classification. Anything made/imported after 86 is dealer/ law enforcement only. Azka, wasn't trying for humor. Most full auto have a single selector. Don't know for sure about the AA12, I thought the video I'd seen showed semi and full auto fire. It has a pretty slow rate of fire, so semi might be just trigger control? Point was I don't know if many can chime in, and didn't want you to think we were snubbing you. Scout, Pre-86 machine guns are a type of NFA regulated firearms. Require a tax stamp, fingerprints, CLEO sign off and have other post ownership rules. Or, president of a corporation does not require a Cleo or fingerprint cards. My local county's CLEO will not sign off, so I'm thinking about going the other route. I'm still learning all the req's. I'm sure you are right that there are state laws that apply in addition to the federal. Post-86 samples can be owned by LE, Military and those who have the right manufactures license. That is my understanding. ALL AA12's are post86. All of this stuff is my current understandings. But I doubt I have it all down yet. Edited February 24, 2006 by kmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PvtPyle 0 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 The AA12 is a full auto weapon made after 1986, and as such will not be owned by a civilian. So wondering how your S-12 stacks up is a pretty moot point, you can own one but not the other. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 The AA12 is a full auto weapon made after 1986, and as such will not be owned by a civilian. So wondering how your S-12 stacks up is a pretty moot point, you can own one but not the other. PvtPyle, is there any legal reason why a Class II/III SOT couldn't own one? ...after all, anyone who isn't military is a civilian. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PvtPyle 0 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 No, absolutely not. All they need is a demo letter and the company to send them one. I tend to use that term loosely and incorrectly. But if you pay the SOT, you are not exactly a normal civlian anymore. You now have all the rights that ALL civilians SHOULD have anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jsr5 0 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 someone above mentiond the AA12 as a continuation of the USAS but I thought the USAS was a BullPUP Until now I ain't never seen anything like the AA12 pictured. USAS12 looks like a M16 on steroids. Here's a pic OK and I thought that was an atchison so apparently I got all screwed up any one possibly know of a Bull pup Full auto Shotgun out there I know I seen pics a long time ago including actuall firing photos so it exists but I'm all messed up on the names. Oh yeah and if i could purchase one in semi auto and at a price I could afford I'd get the pictured USAS in a heartbeat. I like it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 someone correct me if i'm wrong but, you can own a full auto firearm, if your state says so. There are only certian ones you can own, pre-86 i belive is their classification. Anything made/imported after 86 is dealer/ law enforcement only. Azka, wasn't trying for humor. Most full auto have a single selector. Don't know for sure about the AA12, I thought the video I'd seen showed semi and full auto fire. It has a pretty slow rate of fire, so semi might be just trigger control? Point was I don't know if many can chime in, and didn't want you to think we were snubbing you. Scout, Pre-86 machine guns are a type of NFA regulated firearms. Require a tax stamp, fingerprints, CLEO sign off and have other post ownership rules. Or, president of a corporation does not require a Cleo or fingerprint cards. My local county's CLEO will not sign off, so I'm thinking about going the other route. I'm still learning all the req's. I'm sure you are right that there are state laws that apply in addition to the federal. Post-86 samples can be owned by LE, Military and those who have the right manufactures license. That is my understanding. ALL AA12's are post86. All of this stuff is my current understandings. But I doubt I have it all down yet. "My local county's CLEO will not sign off, so I'm thinking about going the other route." Kenneth, Give me the money for that USAS-12 and I'll buy it and hold it for you. After all, what are friends for? RonSwin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm no expert, but I've owned two USAS and rebuilt three from the ground up. I used a USAS-12 in USPSA competition, winning state level matches and placing fairly well at the big shows. I'm a Master class USPSA Open shooter, firearms trainer (Sit up! Beg! ), and gunsmith. I have converted a whole host of Saigas, and (before I got sent back to the Middle East, where I am writing this now...mmm...internet...) hung out with a bunch of smart guys who applied their "mad machining skilz" to the concept of Saigas in real competition. The Chicken Fry Think Tank came up with (starting with the great information on this forum) our own prefered conversion to M4 stock/pistol grip Saigas, and then went from there to Poly-chokes, mid-barrel compensators, 10 and 12 round 12 guage Saiga mags, low-mount Doctor sight mounts, extended everydamnthing, and just generally have abused Saigas at matches all over the country. I have not fired a AA12. I have read that they are an improved version of the USAS's predecessor, but the exploded diagrams show parts that are identical to the USAS. I will assume, for the purposes of this post, that they are pretty close to the same gun. Whew. My USAS, with a red dot and no magazine, weighs 14.0 pounds. I'm 6'3" and go 220. I do not have a problem toting, running with, or shooting that shotgun. My wife is 5'7" and is 135. She can't hold it at port arms, much less shouldered. I, along with such luminaries in the 3-gun world as Guy Hawkins and Benny Hill, do not think that the USAS moves significantly when fired, expecially when compared to the Gold Standard, the Benelli autoloaders. Family friend Jerry Miculek doesn't care for the Saiga 12's. He and Jim Clark have had them through their shops and did not find them particularly worthwhile. My (ex) local band has three converted S12s in competition use, more because of the vast assortment of available 12 guage loads that are available than for any other reason. That said, Jerry and Kay own a Wakal Saiga-20; they ordered two from me after less than a box of shells while my wife was living out at the Clark Range last year (and had brought her Wakal converted Saiga-20). Kay shot a mag through it and asked for one; the next day Jerry shot it and said "...look what you done did...now I want one!" The USAS is a reliable and accurate weapons platform. Mine had a custom Scout scope mount, Briley chokes, and a JP trigger group. It would only run on 3 3/4 dram loads (or hotter), but it would run all week without being serviced. The human influenced cycle rate is about 2/3rds that of a AR (roughly 300-350 RPM), according to my trusty timer and my old slow trigger finger. The recoil pulse is noticiable as a long push straight back, with enough recipocating mass to be noticable. 20 round drum rock (and are flawless in operation), as are 10-round stick mags. The Saiga 12, after being tweaked and upgraded, is also a reliable and accurate weapons platform. My personal Saiga-12 has factory (overbarrel) choke tubes, which I don't much care for (they do work fine) and a Doctor sight. It runs on AA through max-dram loads, although the max dram does punish my old and weak shoulder noticably. It cycles about the same as the USAS, although the pulse is shorter (it has much less recipocating mass). It is also 9 pounds 8 ounces, or four and a half pounds lighter than the big USAS. Since it shoots about the same, the only difference (for me) is that I can reload the USAS faster with the AR-type mag system of the USAS vice the AK style of the Saiga. My Saiga will reload to a closed bolt, but rocking the mag in this platform isn't as fast as the straight loading of the Beast. Eight round factory mags are OK, but it is a pain to make 10 or 12 round magazines for this platform. The Saiga 20, after being tweaked and upgraded, is just as reliable and accurate as the S12. My wife's Saiga has the same conversion and Doctor sight as my S12, but has a vintage Polychoke that works great. You can overchoke it to an amusing degree...which is sometimes handy, as the selection of fairly hot 20 guage loads (necessary to take over most heavy steel targets) is limited. The cycle rate is noticably faster, closer to 400 rpm, and the recoil pulse feels more like a AK47 than a shotgun. The loading, I suspect due to the different mag catch tower design, is faster and smoother than the S12...almost as fast as the Beast. Factory ten round magazines work perfectly, even if they look funky Of the three, I think the S20 is the best choice for most shooters. Light, fast, points well, and with a good conversion is fast to reload. Not that my USAS isn't a great gun, and not that the S12 isn't great...but most folks can't handle the weight of the USAS. The cycle speed and reloads of the S20 give it the edge, IMO, and only the difficulty of finding hot 20 guage ammo keeps it from being perfect. Actual milage may vary, not for the other use, keep out of children. A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azkamidaka 26 Posted February 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Azka, wasn't trying for humor. Most full auto have a single selector. Don't know for sure about the AA12, I thought the video I'd seen showed semi and full auto fire. It has a pretty slow rate of fire, so semi might be just trigger control? Point was I don't know if many can chime in, and didn't want you to think we were snubbing you. Yeah I was on the manufacturer's/distributer's website Mid America Recreation and they say its just trigger control, firing 360 rounds per minute. Thanks for the thought though. Videos Anybody? You can actually disassemble this gun with your hands. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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