Maniac 12 gauge loads

[expeditionx 1]

A while back I posted what Ed Hubel was developing based on a long running post on a different website.

 

I got to thinking about what Bvamp was saying regarding shooting an a home invader with body armor.

He mentioned about people invading homes in New York wearing body armor.

Normally 12 gauge slugs would cause blunt trauma to someone wearing body armor.

Near the end of this page http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm blunt trauma is created using clay and Level IIIA Armor

Im pretty sure the higher level armor around level 4 with the insert plates would reduce the blunt impact by spreading the force over a larger surface area .

So I suspect top level armor to be able to effectively reduce trauma from a typical 12 gauge slug.

 

I would love to see what these would do to trauma plate inserts.

Over 800 grains of hard cast 12 gauge slug at 2500 fps

[pedal2alloy 206]

From what I understand, it is easy to defeat body armor with a rifle round like .308 and even .223. The standard green tip 5.56 that you can buy supposedly goes right thru it.

 

So in your case I think the best HD firearm is an AR with the short barrelled S12 underneith.

[expeditionx 1]

Edited April 2, 2006 by expeditionx

[pedal2alloy 206]

Dang, that's some good body armor.

 

So, what about the rifle rounds that have the teflon jacket on the outside and the steel core on the inside, so that the outside jacket acts as a sabot to imbed in the armor, and the steel core keeps going into the target?

 

Maybe that would be the best design for the 12ga slug too?

[IndyArms 10,186]

with these levels of armour... you are not talking the run of the mill meth addict/street crime felon perp... we are talking top level equipped SWAT teams...

 

If you got top level equipped swat teams coming at you... you might as well do one of two things...

 

Take yourself out... its faster, and easier... Cause they will when they get to you...

 

GIVE UP... its less painful, but you get a cellmate named bubba gonna make you his bitch.

 

For the average perp on the street trying to wear armour... I HIGHLY doubt its going to be level 3 OR 4...

 

SO just go right on ahead and shoot them with whatever ya got handy... and DONT FORGET...

 

IF they *ARE WEARING* level 4 armour... and you SHOOT THEM... Chances are they will GO DOWN... NO holes in them... but in pain.. and down... so what then!??!?! SHOOT THE MOTHERFUCKER till you are empty... or you KNOW THEY ARE DEAD!!!! DUH! LOL

 

[StarLynx 0]

..Indy's plan Rocks ta me.......Like I said before...If my weapon in hand don't stop it...I'm get'n the Hell out'a it's way!!!...

[expeditionx 1]

Dang, that's some good body armor.

 

So, what about the rifle rounds that have the teflon jacket on the outside and the steel core on the inside, so that the outside jacket acts as a sabot to imbed in the armor, and the steel core keeps going into the target?

 

Maybe that would be the best design for the 12ga slug too?

 

The teflon jacket might have been intended to aid barrel life because of the hardened steel core.

I dont think such a jacket would increase penetration upon impact with a steel plate.

Rifle rounds because of their speed generally penetrate plain fiber types of body armor as seen at the box o truth link.

SS190 5.7x28mm @ 2,133fps will penetrate fiber based armor up to 50 meters with the Five-seveN handgun. The steel plates seen on the link are rated out to 30.06 AP rounds. However, .338 winmag should

sail on through. The 800 plus grain 12 gauge slug shown may pass through those plates at 2500 fps, which if it deforms enough passing through would reak even more havock on a bad guy behind the armor.

[DaGroaner 2]

From what I understand, it is easy to defeat body armor with a rifle round like .308 and even .223. The standard green tip 5.56 that you can buy supposedly goes right thru it.

 

So in your case I think the best HD firearm is an AR with the short barrelled S12 underneith.

 

I wonder if I could mount my AK pistol like a vertical foregrip on my S-12? Nevermind, it would probably be illegal.

[Steph 5]

The most common (almost universal) body armor is level II or IIa. That's what almost all street cops wear (many without a trauma plate). Getting hit with that level of armour without a trauma plate would be incapacitating, probably lethal. Level III and IV is bulky (unconcealable) and extremely expensive. Only SWAT or entry teams would have that level; you just wouldn't see crooks wearing it, maybe a well-funded terrorist type. BTW, in my neck of the woods, cops are trained that if center of mass shots don't drop your assailant, you shoot them in the face. There aren't many faces that can stand up to a 12 gauge round of any type. Ow.

[pedal2alloy 206]

From what I understand, it is easy to defeat body armor with a rifle round like .308 and even .223. The standard green tip 5.56 that you can buy supposedly goes right thru it.

 

So in your case I think the best HD firearm is an AR with the short barrelled S12 underneith.

 

I wonder if I could mount my AK pistol like a vertical foregrip on my S-12? Nevermind, it would probably be illegal.

 

Don't worry about it. It would only be illegal when put together. And isn't that just a matter of "slide/click" and it's apart?

[LEO 4]

When we teach our shotgun classes we shoot old armor to show the efectiveness of 12 gauge slugs. level II (which is the higest level that one would want to wear for concealability) with a steel trauma plate is always penatrated with a 12 ga 1oz slug. We wrap the armor around a 5 gallon jug full of water and often times it will extrude the kevlar 6 to 8 inches into the jug. 1 oz slugs work better than the lighter sabot's which sometimes fail to penatrate. I have never seen a hit with a 1 oz slug which would be survivable.

[Bvamp 604]

I have a handload that I make that is similar to the top picture, but a little bit different. I havent chrono'd it, but it is a vicious little bugger, and seems to be not only pretty accurate, but even more devastating than the 3" factory slug loads Ive tested it against, including sabots. I have not as yet compared it to a dixie slug loading, but like I said, it is quite a nasty round. It should stop a bear in its tracks, and probably would stop an elephant with the proper placement.

 

besides, if all one is after is stopping a swat team, I wouldnt try doing that with a small arm. but Im not going down that road.

[Lonestar 0]

Harry "They gave me a gun and strap this bullet proof vest on me"

 

Loyd "What if he shot you in the face"

 

Harry "What if he shot me in the face!"

 

Cop "That was a risk we were willing to take"

 

[Bvamp 604]

are you sure that that is even a long 12 gauge brass case? it looks almost like a 60 caliber or something like that. maybe its just the low picture size throwing off the red in the winchester shell or something that is making them look different. too big to be a 410 anything, maybe 20 gauge?

 

by the way, you vs a swat team with you only taking head shots, even with a 3 1/2" 18 pellet load, you wouldnt stand a chance I dont think.

 

I think the REAL trick would be to keep them OUT of the house in the first place.

[expeditionx 1]

are you sure that that is even a long 12 gauge brass case? it looks almost like a 60 caliber or something like that. maybe its just the low picture size throwing off the red in the winchester shell or something that is making them look different. too big to be a 410 anything, maybe 20 gauge?

 

by the way, you vs a swat team with you only taking head shots, even with a 3 1/2" 18 pellet load, you wouldnt stand a chance I dont think.

 

I think the REAL trick would be to keep them OUT of the house in the first place.

 

The top picture is 12 gauge for sure.

[Rusty 0]

Bvamp: Take a look here.

[lunadam 0]

00 Buck in the face should work pretty well.

 

Other than that, I may just try and hide until I get close enough for my Louisville...

[G O B 3,516]

Any shotgun. Pull trigger- repeat as necessary. No matter what they may be wearing, if you shoot them enough times they WILL go down. If it's the cops busting in unannounced and you busted the first cap, you might as well bust every cap you can. They are not going to leave you alive to contradict their story. If it's crooks- they may get the idea and leave, or you may get them all. Crooks do not have radio's to call for backup.

For the LEO's that read this- the overwhelming majority of you are good guys and God bless you. However there are asshole cowboy's out there that can't read an address on a warrant to save their ass, and those are the one's who don't believe in identifing themselves. They make the world a more dangerous place for all of us.

 

 

G O B

[Lonestar 0]

I just remembered. Isnt that what a bayonet is for?

[Equinox 0]

If you get hit with a shotty 12 w/ heavy loads, your going down. I dont give a shit if your wearing a tank. 10 feet away and it should shread the kevlar and put you on your ass. Not to mention stray load going into your neck and face area at 10 feet. I highly dout I would be the second bastard sticking my head down that hallway. The energy created by 000 buck I think is higher than that of the slug. So if no penetration would happen you still have to calculate the energy in force foot pounds. I believe its over 1000 foot pounds for 000 buck mag load. The armor better have some magical way up keeping you on your feet. If your also armed your hands would be located close to center mass. Cant shoot without hands. Theres a video on the net of a guy accidentally shooting his foot off. And I mean, he blows his foot into particals no bigger than my thumbnail. Rather sick video!

 

As for rifles, everything larger than 300 wetherby mag should do it. We are talking anti-material rifles at that bore. The .338 Lapua is surely a capable round. I am not speaking facks but I do know the .50BMG shoots thru damn near anything. I wouldnt be suprised if the .338 and larger would shoot thru several vest.

Eq

Edited April 4, 2006 by Equinox

[Bvamp 604]

well, the thing about the round I load is that any 12 guage can take it, if the action is tough enough. I have not fired one out of my s12, and probably wont any time soon. as Ive said in the past, it is a solid sabot'ed mini-ball moulded round that I use more tin than is normal for bullet lead. I also have added things like steel machine bolts and engraving points to the center of the mouldings with some interesting results.

 

as a rough example, I did a little bit of testing out of a single shot break action last year. A 3" factory slug loading penetrated about 6-8" of green standing timber, and my loading penetrated about 12-13" of the same type of green standing timber, and appeared to go into next week after going through the tree. the round itself bruised my shoulder after one shot. talk about a jaw rattler....it is almost like a baton round, is the closest comparision I can really make.

 

at any rate, if one were to use one of my loadings on someone armored, I have no doubt it would shatter any bones it impacted near, and send such a shock into the vitals of the person, that they would not be getting up.