SinistralRifleman 0 Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 (edited) Not that I agree with many of the comments and generalizations made in this article, but it does document how US troops were using AKs due to a shortage of M16s/M4s From almost 3 years ago.... http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/special_repor...p-6862352c.html More U.S. troops using confiscated AK-47 rifles By ANDREW ENGLAND, Associated Press Last Updated 11:24 am PDT Sunday, August 24, 2003 BAQOUBA, Iraq (AP) - An American soldier stands at the side of an Iraqi highway, puts his AK-47 on fully automatic and pulls the trigger. Within seconds the assault rifle has blasted out 30 rounds. Puffs of dust dance in the air as the bullets smack into the scrubland dirt. Test fire complete. U.S. troops in Iraq may not have found weapons of mass destruction, but they're certainly getting their hands on the country's stock of Kalashnikovs - and, they say, they need them. The soldiers based around Baqouba are from an armor battalion, which means they have tanks, Humvees and armored personnel carriers. But they are short on rifles. A four-man tank crew is issued two M4 assault rifles and four 9mm pistols, relying mostly on the tank's firepower for protection. But now they are engaged in guerrilla warfare, patrolling narrow roads and goat trails where tanks are less effective. Troops often find themselves dismounting to patrol in smaller vehicles, making rifles essential. "We just do not have enough rifles to equip all of our soldiers. So in certain circumstances we allow soldiers to have an AK-47. They have to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon ... demonstrate an ability to use it," said Lt. Col. Mark Young, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. "Normally an armor battalion is fighting from its tanks. Well, we are not fighting from our tanks right now," Young said. "We are certainly capable of performing the missions that we have been assigned, there's no issue with that, but we do find ourselves somewhat challenged." In Humvees, on tanks - but never openly on base - U.S. soldiers are carrying the Cold War-era weapon, first developed in the Soviet Union but now mass produced around the world. The AK is favored by many of the world's fighters, from child soldiers in Africa to rebel movements around the world, because it is light, durable and known to jam less frequently. Now U.S. troops who have picked up AKs on raids or confiscated them at checkpoints are putting the rifles to use - and they like what they see. Some complain that standard U.S. military M16 and M4 rifles jam too easily in Iraq's dusty environment. Many say the AK has better "knockdown" power and can kill with fewer shots. "The kind of war we are in now ... you want to be able to stop the enemy quick," said Sgt. 1st Class Tracy S. McCarson of Newport News, Va., an army scout, who carries an AK in his Humvee. Some troops say the AK is easier to maintain and a better close-quarters weapon. Also, it has "some psychological affect on the enemy when you fire back on them with their own weapons," McCarson said. Most U.S. soldiers agree the M16 and the M4 - a newer, shorter version of the M16 that has been used by American troops since the 1960s - is better for long distance, precision shooting. But around Baqouba, troops are finding themselves attacked by assailants hidden deep in date palm groves. Or they are raiding houses, taking on enemies at close-quarters. Two weeks ago, Sgt. Sam Bailey of Cedar Falls, Iowa, was in a Humvee when a patrol came under rocket-propelled grenade and heavy machine gun fire. It was dark, the road narrow. On one side, there was a mud wall and palms trees, on the other a canal surrounded by tall grass. Bailey, who couldn't see who was firing, had an AK-47 on his lap and his M4 up front. The choice was simple. "I put the AK on auto and started spraying," Bailey said. Some soldiers also say it's easier to get ammo for the AK - they can pick it up on any raid or from any confiscated weapon. "It's plentiful," said Sgt. Eric Harmon, a tanker who has a full 75-round drum, five 30-round magazines, plus 200-300 rounds in boxes for his AK. He has about 120 rounds for his M16. Young doesn't carry an AK but has fired one. He's considered banning his troops from carrying AKs, but hasn't yet because "if I take the AK away from some of the soldiers, then they will not have a rifle to carry with them." Staff Sgt. Michael Perez, a tanker, said he would take anything over his standard issue 9mm pistol when he's out of his tank. And the AK's durability has impressed him. "They say you can probably drop this in the water and leave it overnight, pull it out in the morning, put in a magazine and it will work," Perez said. Edited April 19, 2006 by SinistralRifleman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I knew of the AK thing before this article came out, by about 8 months, by the way, and it wasnt from anyone in the armor. I bet those guys that got quoted in that article had a real load of shit come thier way from up top for opening thier mouths. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I knew of the AK thing before this article came out, by about 8 months, by the way, and it wasnt from anyone in the armor. I bet those guys that got quoted in that article had a real load of shit come thier way from up top for opening thier mouths. see personally i think its a sad day when the military would repremand the guys on the ground for being able to defend themselves with whatever they had....i mean dosen't it make sense to choose the automatic rifle over the pistol? maybe i'm too far removed since i'm a civillian and all... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
setlab 11 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 (edited) I stand corrected, but something tells me there's a bit more to the story. Definitely a seriously underfunded/unprepared unit... Edited April 20, 2006 by setlab Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 see personally i think its a sad day when the military would repremand the guys on the ground for being able to defend themselves with whatever they had....i mean dosen't it make sense to choose the automatic rifle over the pistol? maybe i'm too far removed since i'm a civillian and all... Haven't you heard the new ideal? Adapt and overcome ... as long as it's with issued gear! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I dont even know if those guys were even reprimaded, or if the commander was yelled at for letting the press interview his troopers about it, as he is there quoted too. what I DO know is that is not the only unit out there doing that, and the shortage issue was more widespread than anyone wants us taxpayers to know about. it was REAL hush hush according to the guys that I spoke with. I also know of one unit (also not the one mentioned in that article) that brought saiga 12's over there to use for entry weapons. How do I know? because I was contacted by the supply sergeant about which parts are unique and unreplacedble over in the sandbox and what could be scavenged from the rifles that are over there. this particular case is a matter of troops that have commanders that want thier troopers to have the equipment they want and prefer, over what is forced on them out of coffers that continue to come up short. ...I think that is general enough to not go against my promise to not go blab about what I was told. I know I wasnt being tricked into thinking something was true that actually wasnt. I also know that I am tired of hearing from the nice members here that tell me that I dont know what the hell I am talking about in this subject, and part of the reason I refuse to get into it is the one that I have previously stated in this most recent discussion about this. I personally think an AKM is a perfect choice in quite a number of cases in the different jobs of our glorious military, and dont see one thing wrong with our boys carrying them in some cases. I also think our own military should acquire rights to make some for our boys, for more than one reason. I just dont see anything wrong with it. why issue our boys that have a need for something like a krinkov or ar pistol, a gun that costs us, the taxpayer, 1200 dollars or more (ar pistol, which I dont believe they do that) per gun, when we could issue them a krink type AKSU for a fraction of that price. the one gun theory across the ranks is a great strategy and all, but there are exceptions to the rule out there that are apparantly ignored. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PvtPyle 0 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 Now come on guys, anybody with any amount of experience in the military could tell you swapping there weapons for AKs would never in a million years fly with the chain of command no matter how high or low you go. And how do you know the guy in the pic is a American? No one uses that pattern of cammo in the US, unless that is some jackass in a staged one time pic. Obviously some guy in Russia knows how we do things in the American military... Actually, while I was in Afghanistan, we used Ak's a LOT. I carried an AKS-74U or MP-5SD most of teh time I was there. If I was riding in the back of a big truck, I was usually on an DShK with a slung MP-5SD and my partner had either a PKM or RPD. Of course we had out M4's in cases with our bug out bags. Why didn't we use the M4's? Because if we got hit with an IED and had to bail, or were pinned down we wanted the M4's with their max load because we knew they would do what we needed. And if we had to leave main guns behind I just had to remove them from inventory and not do a sworn statement and deal with the 15-6 investigation that goes with loosing a US weapon. So I would not go so far as to say that we did not get to use them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I can almost promise that the handful of guys I had contact with will not post about this topic. the one supply sergeant (no, not you pvtpyle, although you had come to mind), might, but I highly doubt the other two will. I really wish I could give more details, like what units and circumstances, but I cant. sorry guys! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NoAim 0 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I also had two AKs in my gun-buying experience. One was a POS WASR-10 that jammed about every 100 rounds. Ammo back then was $75/case but it would only maintain about 6MOA. At 200 yards for my matches (hitting 10" rounds at up to 230 yards) it just wouldn't do. SOLD! Next was a Bulgarian Arsenal SLR-95. Really nice looking. After about two rounds of competition, the POI had dropped 8" at 50 yards. SOLD! I do ARs now. They're just cooler and I can hit crap with 'em. Besides...they LOVE accessories: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 From what I saw in OIF 1, BF pickups were pretty common among crews who were only issued M9's. I haven't seen any this time around. Starlynx, you a 60 driver? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarLynx 0 Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 (edited) Yes-Sir....Flight surgeon should be give'n me my wings back by the end of this month(Due to my wrist injury..)..sure will be glad to get back off the ground on my own,too!!!.. Got stuck in a 64 unit for awhile...hated manipulate'n those fly'n Coffins...Especially when maintanance got cut back on em during the Clinton Admin...I still think the Huey was the best bird the Army ever had.. Aren't you a slick,too?? & are ya still in the sand box??? BTW...u still need'n a M9 shoulder rigg...??.. Edited April 21, 2006 by StarLynx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
epsylum 0 Posted April 22, 2006 Report Share Posted April 22, 2006 (edited) Well we aren't the only first-world country using AKs as backup. I just read that Finland bought a crap load of AKs for their military. I guess the Finnish main issue rifle (I forgot the name) is one bad mofo, but they wanted a butt load of cheap and effective guns for their non-frontline soldiers. I see nothing wrong with that. That being said i own an AR and love it. NoAim's pic gave me a woody as it is almost exactly like how I want mine (I have everything but the EOTech, the Magpul stock, and of course the suppressor). Edited April 22, 2006 by epsylum Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted April 22, 2006 Report Share Posted April 22, 2006 I also read that many US troops are using AKs because of the rifle shortages. Sometimes a four man tank crew will have two rifles so the captured AKs can arm the other two crewmen. The AK is reliable as the Israeli army found out in the 1967 Six Day war. The FN FALs they were using were jamming due to sand and dust accumulations. The British and Australians had a sand groove in the bolt to let the sand out of their FALs which the Israeli FAL didn't have. Another problem was that the soldiers were thirsty and were using magazines as bottle openers which ruined the magazines. The AK has double thickness magazine lips and worked better in desert conditions than the FN FAL and Israeli soldiers were using AK rifles taken off dead Egyptian and Syrian soldiers to fight with. The Finnish Valmet was the basis for the Israeli Galil rifle. I have a friend whose son just finished serving in the Israeli army and swears by his M-4. I also know of US troops who swear by their M-4s. The M-4 shoots a more accurate round than the AK and the M-16/M-4 rifles have been thoroughly debugged in over forty years of service by the US military. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted April 22, 2006 Report Share Posted April 22, 2006 well, in all honesty, I like my AR more than my AK in terms of shooting capability. I cant do 3" ten shot groups from 50 yards out of my AK in 15-20 seconds from a bench, I know that much. hell, it barely will hold a group that small if I REALLY take my time with it. Everyone that hasnt shot either the AK or AR that I have let shoot both, prefer the AR, as well. 5 year old kids have put 1" groups on paper out of my ar15, to boot. the AK is definately a close second in my book, but all around it doesnt stand up to my AR. one other factor is the "shit hits the fan" scenario. If something happened and I had to go out into the damn woods for months to fight a war at home, I dont think Im going to be picking up too much 7.62x39 ammo to use. 223 and 12 gauge on the other hand, wont be hard to get in the least, if people will even PART with ammo at that point. now my saiga12, thats another story. I dont think Im going to ever buy another shotgun, and havent even looked at another shotgun for sale since I got the s12. dont get me wrong, I like my ak. its a great little gun. I would stake my life on it in combat, if it were at all feasible for me to do so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaddis 1,689 Posted April 22, 2006 Report Share Posted April 22, 2006 Yep, even though AR's are fine weapons, I've never been totally comfortable with aluminum or any kind of alloy metal besides good old fashioned steel as a reciever on any weapons I've ever owned. Especially ones where you have to punch STEEL pins out of to disassemble for general cleaning & maintenence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 The shit about M4's is they shit where they eat. I suspect that the Army dropped the xm8 in favor of the Hk 416, which is a gas piston upper for M4s that uses what appears to the same gas system as a G36. No heat transfer to the bolt, and no spray of fouling into the receiver. These two factors are what cause most reliability problems in the M4s and M16A2s. This way, they simply slap the HK416 gas piston upper onto their current M16A2 and M4 lowers. Sure beats buying a load of new weapons, magazines, and spare parts. Heres a nice video of the HK416: http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwat...al/HK416002.ram SWEET! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarLynx 0 Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Who has those HK Uppers for sale rt now??....I want one ..or two..or three... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 (edited) Who has those HK Uppers for sale rt now??....I want one ..or two..or three... HK accidently let some in the market and they were going for $2000. Once HK found out they were in cake-eater hands, they attempted a buyback program. HK thinks they are too good for the civie market on items like these. They can't jack the government out the ass for them if they are selling them to civilians for 1500 dollars. Edited April 24, 2006 by headshot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Yes-Sir....Flight surgeon should be give'n me my wings back by the end of this month(Due to my wrist injury..)..sure will be glad to get back off the ground on my own,too!!!.. Got stuck in a 64 unit for awhile...hated manipulate'n those fly'n Coffins...Especially when maintanance got cut back on em during the Clinton Admin...I still think the Huey was the best bird the Army ever had.. Aren't you a slick,too?? & are ya still in the sand box??? BTW...u still need'n a M9 shoulder rigg...??.. Nah birthday's come and gone. Got my holster. Yeah I'm a 60 guy too. Hope you get back up soon, but I gotta tell you you're not missing anything over here! It's gettin hot and shitty! Keep the greasy side down brotha! shane Steve, don't take offense at Starlynx's remarks! LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarLynx 0 Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 ..Is Steve a "LongBow" Plucker???..heh-heh!...If he is..he's got bigger ballz N' Godzilla if he's slick'n those birds.. hell,Shaneman..when ya get'n back?/ or are ya Bonus'n out??I heard there was some big figures be'n handed out..Well..I guess it's what some would consider big.. Stay Safer!,SMan!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimmbswu 0 Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 I was in an Avenger unit during the run up to OIF-1. In the Army's infinite wisdom, half of our guys had a pistol as their primary weapon. Because we're only supposed to operate in the safe "rear" area, we did not have an M-16 for everyone. The commanders tried to get more M-16s, but since they're not on our MTOE, we didn't get them. Good thing we didn't get deployed, 'cuz we just weren't configured for a close fight. Of course, this was right after the Fed transferred thousands and thousands of "surplus" M-16A2s to other countries during the '90s! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 ..Is Steve a "LongBow" Plucker???..heh-heh!...If he is..he's got bigger ballz N' Godzilla if he's slick'n those birds.. hell,Shaneman..when ya get'n back?/ or are ya Bonus'n out??I heard there was some big figures be'n handed out..Well..I guess it's what some would consider big.. Stay Safer!,SMan!!! Yeah, Steve's a gun bunny. (I'm just messin with ya' steve!) I'll be home by thanksgiving, hoping to PCS over to Rucker to chill for a few years. I figure if Haji can't kill me, then the W1's don't have a shot. (Knock on wood) I think most of the bonus money is going to MTP's, I'm not tracked yet, but I just don't think it's worth it. Those guys are overworked and underappreciated. What happened with your wrist? How long you been down? Are you at Hood too? You a MTP? Shane Jim, all the guys I'm with carry an M-9, and draw their M-4 for "outside the wire" ops. 'Least I don't have to carry both to the chow hall. Sorry to Hijack the post fellas Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 two opinions here. i like a signature that i read on here somewhere. "never buy a gun that shits in the same place it eats" enough said. also, why the hell do you need a battle weapon to shoot 1" groups? what the fuck are you shooting at? KEN and his platoon of green plastic soldiers? or is it the tan ones? all of my ak's shoot 2 inch groups out to 75 yards. yes, even after the barrel sizzles to the touch. but, it boils down to the right ammo. but, even so, 3"-5" groupings should put a bullet in a vital. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 The shittiest shooter in the army has to engage waist-up, man-size sillouettes from 50-300 meters. He has to hit 26 out of 40, and the more accurate the rifle is, the better chance he has. And I would gladly trade my M9 and M4 for a 1911A1 and an M-14. It'll never happen though. (sighs) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onwardtothestars 0 Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Who has those HK Uppers for sale rt now??....I want one ..or two..or three... http://www.pof-usa.com/ has them, the HK design, but made in USA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarLynx 0 Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 kewl!..& those uppers mate right to a AR lower??....have you or anybody else personally shot one ?? I may have ta get me one & try it out i suppose... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Who has those HK Uppers for sale rt now??....I want one ..or two..or three... http://www.pof-usa.com/ has them, the HK design, but made in USA They are definitely NOT the HK design, but they are a highly recommended company. The HK uppers are not going to be offered to the public. The POF is the best option, followed by DSArms' gas trap upper. The HK runs the same system as a G36. Spring, rod, piston, whereas the POF design has no spring for the rod, and relies solely on the one in the buffer tube. POF also makes picto- lowers. Awesome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PvtPyle 0 Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 POF is a licensed manufacturer of H&K parts and weapons. If you look closely at the upper, it is called the P-416...... If you look at the marking on the receiver, they are H&K style markings..... If you tear them both down, their principles of operation are very similar. The upside to the POF gun (beside the fact that they actually make a product to sell to a consumer base that is there to buy it while H&K could not care about the civilian market) is that it has an adjustable gas system. Why is that important? Suppressors. H&K is not currently selling these to the military in quantity. A few units with an R&D mission profile have picked some up. A few have made it into the hands of SOF units. That doesn not mean that they are being bought in quantity by anyone, or that they will. The new solicitation does not specify the H&K, but more along the lines of the SCAR. And since big Army tends to adopt everything SF does, you can bet that they will give the nod to FN. Additionally, H&K has also had significant customer service issues with the military, and the military has not forgotten that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NoAim 0 Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 (edited) Leitner Wise also has one: Colt also has their M5 in the works as a LEO/MIL only. Then of course FN has their take with the SCAR/ARM-L/ARM-H similar to an FNC. But the dirties rifle I've shot happens to not be either a piston or DI gun...the H&K G3/HK91 gets freaking dirty in the chamber due to the flutes. Edited May 6, 2006 by NoAim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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