jonathon 0 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 (edited) I leave my S-12 with a loaded mag in it, but I notice that after a week or two, the shells get deformed... Could this cause a problem in feeding and is there a way to prevent it?? I shoot my Saiga at least once a month, so I havn't had any problems.. but I'd be a bit leary if it had be sitting for a while loaded.. Edited August 20, 2006 by jonathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I leave my S-12 with a loaded mag in it, but I notice that after a week or two, the shells get deformed... Could this cause a problem in feeding and is there a way to prevent it?? I shoot my Saiga at least once a month, so I havn't had any problems.. but I'd be a bit leary if it had be sitting for a while loaded.. It cause me to have a probloem with my favorite winchester turkey loads but I have since switched to leaving brass cased ammo in the loaded magazine. I think that taking out one shell would probably alleviate the problem as well but those squashed oval shotgun shells don't inspire confidence do they? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I leave my S-12 with a loaded mag in it, but I notice that after a week or two, the shells get deformed... Could this cause a problem in feeding and is there a way to prevent it?? I shoot my Saiga at least once a month, so I havn't had any problems.. but I'd be a bit leary if it had be sitting for a while loaded.. It cause me to have a probloem with my favorite winchester turkey loads but I have since switched to leaving brass cased ammo in the loaded magazine. I think that taking out one shell would probably alleviate the problem as well but those squashed oval shotgun shells don't inspire confidence do they? Where are you finding brass cased ammo? What brand? How much? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted August 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 +1, where can I get brass cased ammo?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 what would you pay per round Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veen 0 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 what would you pay per round If someone showed me a place where I could get a nice powerful 3" 00 in a brass case for $2.50 a round I'd gladly drop it. Maybe even a bit more, since I'd only need about 30 or so and only fire them in a home defense situation. If I wanted 2.75" I'd just go with the steel Barnaul stuff. Last I checked they make 00, but I like my shotgun loads with as much powder and pellets packed in as I can get. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 the only thing prohibiting me at this point, is someone using my loadings in the older guns, or full choked modern guns. I am seriously thining about offering a SERIOUS metal cased home defense loading to offer for sale, though. everyone but me seems to make money off of my forum, but me.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veen 0 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 the only thing prohibiting me at this point, is someone using my loadings in the older guns, or full choked modern guns. I am seriously thining about offering a SERIOUS metal cased home defense loading to offer for sale, though. everyone but me seems to make money off of my forum, but me.... Laffo No, seriously. What would you want for a set of 30 76mm 00buck loads suitable for home defense, and what are we talking for estimated FPS/pellets per round? I've got a recoil pad and a recoil buffer, so it's not like I need anything low recoil. As long as the price isn't ridiculously high, I'd probably fork over. I also know at least a few people here would, seeing as the whole "top round deforms" thing is seemingly coming to light and getting mentioned more and more. I also know people from other forums who would hop over here for some good 3" home defense brass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 i could sell you all several, for one loaded mag, I am aware of that. let me look into it this weekend. I will make a trip specifically to check shell supply tomorrow. I might not be able to offer 3" loadings, but im no schoolboy, and I could offer a kickass load in 2.75" loads, IF i could get past the thing where some idiot wouldnt blow themselves up with it......(which is 100% of whats stopped me to this point) I have been tossing this very offering around in my head for a while now....Im just not sure I want the liability, is all. I have experimented with a slug loading and a buck loading. I have also toyed with a flechette loading as well, but it doesnt seem to work as good. I just dont want someone to blow thier face off with one....they are QUITE stout. I wouldnt run lots down a saiga-12, even. they are THAT hot. I am sure you can see the problems that could occur. let me look into shell supply and an extremely precise scale. Ill post results when I return home in a couple weeks, and let you all know what I think I can offer, if anything. I am honestly afraid to offer my personal loading up to the public, as I really do think eventually, someone will put the shell in the wrong gun. (maybe an inked stamp on the hull? I dunno? baton rounds, look that up) I would be extremly pleased to offer you all a round that wont fail you. hopefully, I can offer it. no promises. I dont want to get sued. I hope you all understand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veen 0 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 (edited) Nah, I understand. Just some options in a brass case might be nice, especially a full 3". It's always seemed like such a waste to me to only go with a 2.75" load when a full 3" is what the gun was made to be able to hold. As far as your own personal loadings, how are they compared to a 3" Federal 00 Magnum load? That's what I'm running right now and they seem to claim 1050fps, and the recoil doesn't feel like it's trunion/bolt breaking or anything. Edit: as for liability, what legally happens if you require someone to physically sign and fax in a waiver saying they'll take full responsibilty for the consequences of using your loads? Edited August 20, 2006 by Veen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 well, I might as well offer the loading to only cops, if everyone has to sign for it! the most difference between 2 and 3/4 and 3 is the payload. the powder charge is the same, you can still get 12 bucks in a 2 3/4, but really the 3 is for the longer pattern shoot. meaning, the 3" is for tha textra little bit of shot that tosses it out there. it WILL hit. I dont load to this. Im a bit different. which is why as I am responding to your post....I might think to offer one or two of my personal loadings.....IF people dont try to put them in some old "sears" gun. I really dont want to have every guy that I sell the loading to, to sign a waiver. its a bit more info than I am prepared to record both ways, each way, each sale, if you get my drift.... I know people will like them, i just dont want anyone to do anythign stupid with them or blow thier face off! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 oh, btw there is no way to prevent your "top stacker" from deforming over time, with a plastic hull, except to not attach the mag to the gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ironhead7544 35 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 You need to have a license to sell your own manufactured ammo. If someone blew a gun you would be completely liable as an unlicensed ammo maker. I dont think the license is hard to get but they will require liability insurance. A guy I know set up a company to reload ammo for police departments. He had to pay a set amount for each thousand he loaded. Concerning the round deformation, I experimented with my S-12. Couldnt find any steel or brass shells at the time. I found that a slug as the top round will not deform much if left in the gun as a top round. The plastic shells with buckshot will deform and the roll crimp type with the disc over the shot will come loose to the point of coming out of the shell. Its probably best to leave the mag out of the gun until you need it or just remember you have a slug as your second shot. I would like to see a brass or steel hull with OO or OOO buck but for me I would rather have a lower velocity tactical load. Less recoil for faster followup shots and a lot tighter pattern. That steel hulled load might be good with its 13 OO pellets at about 1000 fps. Has anyone shot it in the S-12? Whats the recoil like? Havent been able to find any for sale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veen 0 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Just another quick idea without going steel/brass, what happens if you leave the bolt locked open on a full mag, and just let it slap shut when you grab it from under the bed or whatnot? Is the recoil spring prone to deforming or anything? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 (edited) http://www.northwestloading.com/catalog/de...php?cPath=12_75 http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?...p;cookieClean=1 http://www.nemb.com/products/tungstencarbide.htm http://www.eabco.com/VVuori02.html http://site.mawebcenters.com/lolosportingg...gtechbrass.html http://www.shootersmart.com/site/Library/c...p;b=WADS&c= Edited August 20, 2006 by SOPMOD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 ironhead, thanks, thats what I wanted to know. I need a fuckin permit to sell to other average americans. maybe ill just buy metal hulled ammo, shoot it, and sell the empties...NAH. I will figure it out. permit needed? what permit....I need a permit to load handloads with a waiver for idiots.....thats new to me, actually. like I said, thanks for the info...i probably wont be allowed to sell it ANYWAY (too lethal??? is there such a thing?)...... not your bad, but i feel more and more regulated every day.... im not going to toss the idea, yet, mind you......thanks for the info I was fearing....need a PERMIT with TAX. HAH. why am I not surprised??? (this is a violation of my rights, btw, for the record) by the way? my loadings go beyond STOUT recoil. the stuff I am thinking of offering is well beyond anything you get off the shelf. like i said, i dont want to blow some idiots face off that puts it down some sears oldie......or fires a few mags of them down any saiga with a choke on it..... frosty tested, frosty defined.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 You need an ammunition manufacturing license to sell ammunition or a type 07 firearms manufacturing license to sell it. There is also a 10% federal excise tax due on all ammo sales. Payable quarterly. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 (edited) Everything that is any fun or usefull is TAXED and REGULATED! And also illegal, immoral, or fattening! PS -I am sitting on some Barnul steel slugs and 00 buck for top round loading in mags, I think mag in gun-chamber empty is the only safe way to keep a loaded Saiga-12 at ready. you can pull bolt back just enough to ckeck chamber empty. That is one of the beauties of Michael's design! As far as I am concerned there is no excuse for having a live round in the chamber other than entering a combat situation. Anyone that keeps a live round chambered (and this goes for LEO's too) is going to have a STUPIDITY discharge. Not "accidental" that implies machanical failure or unforseen circumstance. Carrying with a live round chambered is just tempting the fates! Edited August 20, 2006 by G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 You can also modify your bolt to reduce TRD and make loading on a closed bolt easier. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Bvamp, Tony is right. You need a think a type 7 FFl to manufacture ammo. There is a loop hole though. As long as the "buyer" supplies at least one component of the shell ( case, powder, shot...) you can load and sell it to them. You would be providing a service instead of manufacuring. There is a guy that was making armor pericing 5.7x28 rounds out of ss109 steel core. He melted the lead out and replaced it with pvc to drop the weight from 62gr down to 34 grain. The restricted ss190 is 32gr. Anyways, he told me this after the atf investigated him for manufacuring without a licence. Have the buyers supply one componect to you and you will be completely legal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTwannabe 1 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I keep a mag full of Remington Express 00 buck on a closed bolt. I've had it in there for months without any deformation problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S-12inWV 1 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I bought a bunch of the Barnaul Zinc plated Steel cased 3in 00 and have alot of problems with it cycling in my S-12. I wanted them for the same reason the thread was started but don't think I've had a complete 9 rounds go through it at one time without a FTF issue. The sheels alwyas seemed to get jammed up and forward into the top guide too often, and the slightest little bend around the rim will screw it up everytime. Have people had similar results w/their converted S-12s? Otherwise, mine will eat anyhting you put throught it.... I try to stay away from the Wally world 100 rd value packs. I like to keep my gas setting on 1 and to cycle my home defense stuff reliably. I have to go to #2 when I use the 100 rd value packs... I can cycle the Super heavy sporting clay Win. stuff in the black/dark hauls on #1...so that's what I use whe I'm just shoting low brass.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 http://www.northwestloading.com/catalog/de...php?cPath=12_75http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?...p;cookieClean=1 http://www.nemb.com/products/tungstencarbide.htm http://www.eabco.com/VVuori02.html http://site.mawebcenters.com/lolosportingg...gtechbrass.html http://www.shootersmart.com/site/Library/c...p;b=WADS&c= Loading supplies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Bvamp, Tony is right. You need a think a type 7 FFl to manufacture ammo. There is a loop hole though. As long as the "buyer" supplies at least one component of the shell ( case, powder, shot...) you can load and sell it to them. You would be providing a service instead of manufacuring. There is a guy that was making armor pericing 5.7x28 rounds out of ss109 steel core. He melted the lead out and replaced it with pvc to drop the weight from 62gr down to 34 grain. The restricted ss190 is 32gr. Anyways, he told me this after the atf investigated him for manufacuring without a licence. Have the buyers supply one componect to you and you will be completely legal. If that is true, i would expect there would be a good number of reloading services. (bring in your spent shells). Are there, and i just havent heard of them, or is it cost prohibitive for some other reason? Anybody know more about this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veen 0 Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I bought a bunch of the Barnaul Zinc plated Steel cased 3in 00 Since when did Barnaul make steel cased 3"? Anything I've ever found has been 2.75". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPABA 0 Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Anyone that keeps a live round chambered (and this goes for LEO's too) is going to have a STUPIDITY discharge. Not "accidental" that implies machanical failure or unforseen circumstance. Carrying with a live round chambered is just tempting the fates! When I go deer hunting with my saiga-12, I always load up so that I don't make lots of noise in the woods. Call me stupid if you like, but I would consider deer hunting with an empty chamber a crying shame. At least it would be when I scare away that once in a lifetime buck by cocking the bolt when he is already in sight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KTR03 0 Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 We teach rifle courses all the time and have troops and officers and private citizens carrying loaded chamber, safety one with military rifles all the time. 15 hours a day. Its not a problem and certainly not stupid. Teach muzzle awareness, trigger finger control and common sense. In my opinion, there are four different modes: storage mode (gun empty, no mag) Transport mode (chamber empty, hammer down, loaded mag) Carry Mode (chamber loaded, loaded mag, safety on) And Immediate Use mode (stock mounted on shoulder, safety off) Shotguns are a little different in that most of them (say 870s) are sporting guns and don't have drop safeties or firing pin blocks in them. Those we carry empty chambered. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tiny 2 Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) Is there a trick to prevent plastic hull deformation? Yep get one of Jeric's LRBHO. Thats the next thing I'm getting for my S-12....Well that and some more mags. Link: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=11590&hl= Edited August 21, 2006 by Tiny Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I just posted this in the tech section. Check it out. stimpsonjcat's "stimpcatch" and bolt mod to make lkoading on a closed bolt easier http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=5224&hl= http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4979&hl= Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 2 3/4' steel=3' plastic. the plastic 3' measure 2 3/4 before firing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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