How about This! I'm the 20rd drum guy, HELL YEAH!

[Gunfighter 1]

Hello Mike ---------- thanks for the civil reply. As I said , I'm 50 years old -------- I know that I WILL own firearms for the rest of my life --------- hopefully , my children will also. My fears are for my Grandchildren and their children.

 

Illinois is not the worst state for gun owners ---- the state of Chicago is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

As someone else posted ----- if it was not you , then someone else would have made a drum mag. I have NO problem with a person making up something that only affects themselfs ----- when it affects me then that is another story.

 

 

As a side note ---------- S-12s etc. at any time , could be reclassifed as DDs . And at anytime , they could also be banned for private citizens to own them in all 50 states , not just Illinois.

 

As I posted about the USAS-12s ---------- this was on a Federal level -- once a firearm is declared a DD -- it is a easy step for any State to totally ban it , IMHO.

Gunfighter

[akdog 3]

I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either.

I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT.

Rulings seem to bypass Congress.

If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around.

Do you understand that the stock made the ruger a machinegun. It is considered a "full auto part". A 20rd drum is not a "DD part" there is no such thing. The mag limitations died with the assault weapons ban. They can deem my drum anything. It is just a magazine. It doesn't make anything full auto. Do you understand. If not call the atf and let them explain it to you.

 

A stock is an accessory. A drum is an accessory.

Saigas are perfectly sporting as a commercial product according to the BATF.

Your drum would be the only reason to cause a problem.

The path of least resistance for a solution would be a ruling against a product that can potentially cause an unwanted situation. If they rule against your product before it is released, they do not have to DD the Saigas. Drums maybe legal, but rulings can specifically attack that which laws can't even yet you know that. If RAA was creating the situation with drums, then they would reclassify, but a third party is so its simpler to ban your shit. Either way your screwed before you could make any money on this deal.

[kresk 10,063]

Dude. Get informed, if it is reclassifed to a DD, they don't come around and collect them. You get a free tax stamp and it is still granfathered.

Dude. Get informed. NOT all states allow DD's. I'm not the only one that would be mighty pissed off..........

[jaywalker 1]

Quote: "Everyone else is stupid, exept for me."

(Homer Simpson)

 

I know one thing. When I am on the verge of doing something very, very stupid (or immoral, or thoughtless, or selfish) and a whole bunch of people from the community to which I belong say, "hey, don't do that!" It's usualy because they are right and I am wrong. Mike, how could this many of your fellow firearm owners be wrong? Could it be that we were all just hit with the stupid stick on the same day? C'mon man. Give it a rest. Get with some of the people you respect and run this dilema by them.

There are others who have gone before you in simmilar situations. See what they have to say. Seek the advice of someone less fired up about all this. A more nutral party. Can you entertain the possibility that you might have made a mistake? There are people who can advise you on how to best cut your losses (lawyers&accountants). It's not the end of the world. Just a mistake.

[MikeD 541]

I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either.

I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT.

Rulings seem to bypass Congress.

If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around.

Do you understand that the stock made the ruger a machinegun. It is considered a "full auto part". A 20rd drum is not a "DD part" there is no such thing. The mag limitations died with the assault weapons ban. They can deem my drum anything. It is just a magazine. It doesn't make anything full auto. Do you understand. If not call the atf and let them explain it to you.

 

A stock is an accessory. A drum is an accessory.

Saigas are perfectly sporting as a commercial product according to the BATF.

Your drum would be the only reason to cause a problem.

The path of least resistance for a solution would be a ruling against a product that can potentially cause an unwanted situation. If they rule against your product before it is released, they do not have to DD the Saigas. Drums maybe legal, but rulings can specifically attack that which laws can't even yet you know that. If RAA was creating the situation with drums, then they would reclassify, but a third party is so its simpler to ban your shit. Either way your screwed before you could make any money on this deal.

They can't deem my product like the stock. one last time, the stock is a full auto parts kit. The drum is just a drum. It doesn't change the working mechanics of anything. They can't deem it a "dd parts kit because it doesn't exhist. They would have to pass a law throughcongress to do that. The ONLY thing they can do if you call them is reclassify the saiga and my drum would STILL be perfectly legal.

[MikeD 541]

Dude. Get informed, if it is reclassifed to a DD, they don't come around and collect them. You get a free tax stamp and it is still granfathered.

Dude. Get informed. NOT all states allow DD's. I'm not the only one that would be mighty pissed off..........

Like I said, Your laws are not my laws or the majority of ours. Don't try to push your fucked up state's laws on me. I don't live there and wouldn't. All I can say is maybe you live in hosile territory and need to move.

[Gunfighter 1]

Hello,

I could be wrong here ------- not many years ago , it WAS legal to have "fire control" parts that would allow you to turn a semi-auto into a full auto weapon. Then BATF declared that owning the PARTS and the weapon made it into a "machine gun" even if the parts WERE NOT installed in the weapon ???

Gunfighter

[MikeD 541]

Quote: "Everyone else is stupid, exept for me."

(Homer Simpson)

 

I know one thing. When I am on the verge of doing something very, very stupid (or immoral, or thoughtless, or selfish) and a whole bunch of people from the community to which I belong say, "hey, don't do that!" It's usualy because they are right and I am wrong. Mike, how could this many of your fellow firearm owners be wrong? Could it be that we were all just hit with the stupid stick on the same day? C'mon man. Give it a rest. Get with some of the people you respect and run this dilema by them.

There are others who have gone before you in simmilar situations. See what they have to say. Seek the advice of someone less fired up about all this. A more nutral party. Can you entertain the possibility that you might have made a mistake? There are people who can advise you on how to best cut your losses (lawyers&accountants). It's not the end of the world. Just a mistake.

I have way more positive responses than negative. They just came in private because I guess they were afraid of being ridiculed. I already have a list of well over 200 that thinks this is positive. Go and count how many are opposing and it doesn't come close to that.

[MikeD 541]

Hello,

I could be wrong here ------- not many years ago , it WAS legal to have "fire control" parts that would allow you to turn a semi-auto into a full auto weapon. Then BATF declared that owning the PARTS and the weapon made it into a "machine gun" even if the parts WERE NOT installed in the weapon ???

Gunfighter

You are very correct. But there is no such thing as "DD parts".

[akdog 3]

I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either.

I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT.

Rulings seem to bypass Congress.

If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around.

Do you understand that the stock made the ruger a machinegun. It is considered a "full auto part". A 20rd drum is not a "DD part" there is no such thing. The mag limitations died with the assault weapons ban. They can deem my drum anything. It is just a magazine. It doesn't make anything full auto. Do you understand. If not call the atf and let them explain it to you.

 

A stock is an accessory. A drum is an accessory.

Saigas are perfectly sporting as a commercial product according to the BATF.

Your drum would be the only reason to cause a problem.

The path of least resistance for a solution would be a ruling against a product that can potentially cause an unwanted situation. If they rule against your product before it is released, they do not have to DD the Saigas. Drums maybe legal, but rulings can specifically attack that which laws can't even yet you know that. If RAA was creating the situation with drums, then they would reclassify, but a third party is so its simpler to ban your shit. Either way your screwed before you could make any money on this deal.

They can't deem my product like the stock. one last time, the stock is a full auto parts kit. The drum is just a drum. It doesn't change the working mechanics of anything. They can't deem it a "dd parts kit because it doesn't exhist. They would have to pass a law throughcongress to do that. The ONLY thing they can do if you call them is reclassify the saiga and my drum would STILL be perfectly legal.

 

The stock is NOT a full auto parts kit. Its external and was approved at first because it passed the initial test. Then because they changed their mind they made up a new rule like they do all the time. Since when are they fair? I repeat the atkins stock was not a full auto anything, but because the ATF must have got enough headachs from antis about the stock they simply closed the party. If I have to call 60 minutes, Dateline, etc one way or another they will do a story on your product that can potentially cause mass killings with a harmless hunting shotgun.

Ohhhhh, you didn't think anyone will go that far huh. If we are all going to lose our Saigas, you can happily end up on prime time. Hopefully the ATF will deal with you before I have to go further.

Yes, they can make your product illegal somehow. Your not above big brothers grasp get a clue.

[kresk 10,063]

Dude. Get informed, if it is reclassifed to a DD, they don't come around and collect them. You get a free tax stamp and it is still granfathered.

Dude. Get informed. NOT all states allow DD's. I'm not the only one that would be mighty pissed off..........

Like I said, Your laws are not my laws or the majority of ours. Don't try to push your fucked up state's laws on me. I don't live there and wouldn't. All I can say is maybe you live in hosile territory and need to move.

The fact remains you're shittin' in my Easter basket. I'll gladly move if you foot the bill with some of your profits. And by the way, have your lithium level checked.......it appears to be below therapeutic. Have a nice day.

[jaywalker 1]

If you really had a list of over 200 people who responded positivley (er, in private, of course) then why would you possibly be wasting your time here? It just doesn't compute. Do you think you are going to win over that crucial 20 or 30? How many people here would be arguing this like Mike is if you already had a list of 200 supporters? I call bullshit.

[MikeD 541]

I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either.

I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT.

Rulings seem to bypass Congress.

If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around.

Do you understand that the stock made the ruger a machinegun. It is considered a "full auto part". A 20rd drum is not a "DD part" there is no such thing. The mag limitations died with the assault weapons ban. They can deem my drum anything. It is just a magazine. It doesn't make anything full auto. Do you understand. If not call the atf and let them explain it to you.

 

A stock is an accessory. A drum is an accessory.

Saigas are perfectly sporting as a commercial product according to the BATF.

Your drum would be the only reason to cause a problem.

The path of least resistance for a solution would be a ruling against a product that can potentially cause an unwanted situation. If they rule against your product before it is released, they do not have to DD the Saigas. Drums maybe legal, but rulings can specifically attack that which laws can't even yet you know that. If RAA was creating the situation with drums, then they would reclassify, but a third party is so its simpler to ban your shit. Either way your screwed before you could make any money on this deal.

They can't deem my product like the stock. one last time, the stock is a full auto parts kit. The drum is just a drum. It doesn't change the working mechanics of anything. They can't deem it a "dd parts kit because it doesn't exhist. They would have to pass a law throughcongress to do that. The ONLY thing they can do if you call them is reclassify the saiga and my drum would STILL be perfectly legal.

 

The stock is NOT a full auto parts kit. Its external and was approved at first because it passed the initial test. Then because they changed their mind they made up a new rule like they do all the time. Since when are they fair? I repeat the atkins stock was not a full auto anything, but because the ATF must have got enough headachs from antis about the stock they simply closed the party. If I have to call 60 minutes, Dateline, etc one way or another they will do a story on your product that can potentially cause mass killings with a harmless hunting shotgun.

Ohhhhh, you didn't think anyone will go that far huh. If we are all going to lose our Saigas, you can happily end up on prime time. Hopefully the ATF will deal with you before I have to go further.

Yes, they can make your product illegal somehow. Your not above big brothers grasp get a clue.

You are right. No one is above big brother. But I am still not scared. Call dateline or whoever you want and be another gunhater. Bring attention to this all you want. It still won't change the legality of what I'm doing. Maybe you should cry and tell them there making beta-c drums again too and Thompson 100rd drums. Cry like a baby and make yourself a tool in the gungrabbers basket.

[MikeD 541]

If you really had a list of over 200 people who responded positivley (er, in private, of course) then why would you possibly be wasting your time here? It just doesn't compute. Do you think you are going to win over that crucial 20 or 30? How many people here would be arguing this like Mike is if you already had a list of 200 supporters? I call bullshit.

I am here to see how rediculous you all can get. Dog is calling Dateline, the Atf, and 60 minutes. People are calling their laywers and all kinds of good stuff. The same 20 to 30 cried about the 10rd mags. Would you have said the same to Kevin. Don't his sales reflect. Do you truly think I can't sell 1000 drums in 24 hrs as well? I don't need you to beleive it to make it true. Aren't you one of the guys that was trying to call bullshit on my drum. That didn't make it not true either.

[akdog 3]

I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either.

I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT.

Rulings seem to bypass Congress.

If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around.

Do you understand that the stock made the ruger a machinegun. It is considered a "full auto part". A 20rd drum is not a "DD part" there is no such thing. The mag limitations died with the assault weapons ban. They can deem my drum anything. It is just a magazine. It doesn't make anything full auto. Do you understand. If not call the atf and let them explain it to you.

 

A stock is an accessory. A drum is an accessory.

Saigas are perfectly sporting as a commercial product according to the BATF.

Your drum would be the only reason to cause a problem.

The path of least resistance for a solution would be a ruling against a product that can potentially cause an unwanted situation. If they rule against your product before it is released, they do not have to DD the Saigas. Drums maybe legal, but rulings can specifically attack that which laws can't even yet you know that. If RAA was creating the situation with drums, then they would reclassify, but a third party is so its simpler to ban your shit. Either way your screwed before you could make any money on this deal.

They can't deem my product like the stock. one last time, the stock is a full auto parts kit. The drum is just a drum. It doesn't change the working mechanics of anything. They can't deem it a "dd parts kit because it doesn't exhist. They would have to pass a law throughcongress to do that. The ONLY thing they can do if you call them is reclassify the saiga and my drum would STILL be perfectly legal.

 

The stock is NOT a full auto parts kit. Its external and was approved at first because it passed the initial test. Then because they changed their mind they made up a new rule like they do all the time. Since when are they fair? I repeat the atkins stock was not a full auto anything, but because the ATF must have got enough headachs from antis about the stock they simply closed the party. If I have to call 60 minutes, Dateline, etc one way or another they will do a story on your product that can potentially cause mass killings with a harmless hunting shotgun.

Ohhhhh, you didn't think anyone will go that far huh. If we are all going to lose our Saigas, you can happily end up on prime time. Hopefully the ATF will deal with you before I have to go further.

Yes, they can make your product illegal somehow. Your not above big brothers grasp get a clue.

You are right. No one is above big brother. But I am still not scared. Call dateline or whoever you want and be another gunhater. Bring attention to this all you want. It still won't change the legality of what I'm doing. Maybe you should cry and tell them there making beta-c drums again too and Thompson 100rd drums. Cry like a baby and make yourself a tool in the gungrabbers basket.

 

Have you considered that if I create a grenade launcher for a remington 870 or 1187 they are not going to ban the gun? If I create a forward grip that can only be used on a certain pistol, they won't ban the pistol as an AOW. Rulings are interpretations that suit their policy, to cause the least publicity.

They never banned AKs or ak pistols because steel core Chinese ammo was flowin in, instead they ban the ammo its alot simpler and less problems for them. In this case, creating a cease order makes the most sense. Hopefully, they do.

[erikm98 0]

Well a 37mm flare launcher is just that, a flare launcher. Launch flares with it all day not a problem, hell its not even a firearm. Be in posession of any shell for it that has any use as an antipersonel round and then your 37mm flare launcher is now a DD.

 

Hopefully the worst that may come from this is that the ATF decides that the gun needs to be registered as a DD in order to use the mag. Kinda the same concept as above since the magazine would be the factor pushing it over the edge like the antipersonel rounds for a 37mm flare gun. So it would be Saiga 12, all cool, just a normal shotgun. Saiga 12 and posession of 20rd mag bad, unless saiga 12 is registered as a DD.

 

I am interested in the mags, I would LOVE to own one. Depending on how all this goes i may be able to buy one and now have to worry about any special BS. Call me a "fucktard" for sharing my ideas, and trying to help you and others understand how the legal system and ATF works on some issues and I guarentee you loose me as a potential customer and quite a few people i know with saiga 12's.

[KU_MechE 0]

imo, we don't need the drum. you should just sell your design to AGP and let them handle it. I will not be buying one. i hope you don't screw us all

[MikeD 541]

I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either.

I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT.

Rulings seem to bypass Congress.

If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around.

Do you understand that the stock made the ruger a machinegun. It is considered a "full auto part". A 20rd drum is not a "DD part" there is no such thing. The mag limitations died with the assault weapons ban. They can deem my drum anything. It is just a magazine. It doesn't make anything full auto. Do you understand. If not call the atf and let them explain it to you.

 

A stock is an accessory. A drum is an accessory.

Saigas are perfectly sporting as a commercial product according to the BATF.

Your drum would be the only reason to cause a problem.

The path of least resistance for a solution would be a ruling against a product that can potentially cause an unwanted situation. If they rule against your product before it is released, they do not have to DD the Saigas. Drums maybe legal, but rulings can specifically attack that which laws can't even yet you know that. If RAA was creating the situation with drums, then they would reclassify, but a third party is so its simpler to ban your shit. Either way your screwed before you could make any money on this deal.

They can't deem my product like the stock. one last time, the stock is a full auto parts kit. The drum is just a drum. It doesn't change the working mechanics of anything. They can't deem it a "dd parts kit because it doesn't exhist. They would have to pass a law throughcongress to do that. The ONLY thing they can do if you call them is reclassify the saiga and my drum would STILL be perfectly legal.

 

The stock is NOT a full auto parts kit. Its external and was approved at first because it passed the initial test. Then because they changed their mind they made up a new rule like they do all the time. Since when are they fair? I repeat the atkins stock was not a full auto anything, but because the ATF must have got enough headachs from antis about the stock they simply closed the party. If I have to call 60 minutes, Dateline, etc one way or another they will do a story on your product that can potentially cause mass killings with a harmless hunting shotgun.

Ohhhhh, you didn't think anyone will go that far huh. If we are all going to lose our Saigas, you can happily end up on prime time. Hopefully the ATF will deal with you before I have to go further.

Yes, they can make your product illegal somehow. Your not above big brothers grasp get a clue.

You are right. No one is above big brother. But I am still not scared. Call dateline or whoever you want and be another gunhater. Bring attention to this all you want. It still won't change the legality of what I'm doing. Maybe you should cry and tell them there making beta-c drums again too and Thompson 100rd drums. Cry like a baby and make yourself a tool in the gungrabbers basket.

 

Have you considered that if I create a grenade launcher for a remington 870 or 1187 they are not going to ban the gun? If I create a forward grip that can only be used on a certain pistol, they won't ban the pistol as an AOW. Rulings are interpretations that suit their policy, to cause the least publicity.

They never banned AKs or ak pistols because steel core Chinese ammo was flowin in, instead they ban the ammo its alot simpler and less problems for them. In this case, creating a cease order makes the most sense. Hopefully, they do.

A grenade launcher is illegal to make for anything. A pistolgrip is covered by the overall leghth of a dual grip pistolbullshit. Show me where making a 20rd drum is illegal. You can't because it isn't. Not after the AWB expired anyways. Your best bet to stop this is to hope hr1022 gets pasted.

[MikeD 541]

imo, we don't need the drum. you should just sell your design to AGP and let them handle it. I will not be buying one. i hope you don't screw us all

AGP was very close to making a drum after the 10rders came out. This would be after the fact that the atf 'supposidly' told them no more than 10rds. He gave it up to work on a whole new firarm design in .40s&w. Not because of the atf or any of you. In fact it is criers and whinners here that have ran Kevin off. He won't even post here anymore.

[jaywalker 1]

No, I'm not one of the guys trying to call bullshit on your drum. All you can say is it's legal, It's legal, it's legal. I don't see many people denying that. That's not the issue here. How could someone who can design and fabricate a twenty rnd. drum not wrap their mind around this? I'm beginning to suspect that you can't see past your own interests at all. EVER- Here's something else rediculous for you to chew on. A ten rnd. box magazine is not a twenty rnd. drum. One is practical the other is not. One threatens to take many S-12's out of our hands the other does not. One was concieved and brought about with the blessing of the ATF, the the other is not. Get it?

[JK-47 33]

If you really sunk all your money into this, I think you may be deep in shit. Instead of getting so arguementative, why not at least consider a compromise? If these drums were sold incomplete, like they had no locking lugs and required permanent changes to the saiga, or for the drum to be permanently afixed, wouldn't that circumvent the stock saigas from being reclassified? Aren't other alternatives at least worth considering? If there is a way to do this without getting the saiga 12 reclassified, there is no better support base for development and marketing than this forum...

[MikeD 541]

If you really sunk all your money into this, I think you may be deep in shit. Instead of getting so arguementative, why not at least consider a compromise? If these drums were sold incomplete, like they had no locking lugs and required permanent changes to the saiga, or for the drum to be permanently afixed, wouldn't that circumvent the stock saigas from being reclassified? Aren't other alternatives at least worth considering? If there is a way to do this without getting the saiga 12 reclassified, there is no better support base for development and marketing than this forum...

I have said repeatedly, I am open for suggestion. You are the first offer any. I promise I'm not in deepshit though. There is a huge market for this design outside of the country. I have already spoken to people in Russia, New Zealand, United Kingdom and Sweden.

[MikeD 541]

No, I'm not one of the guys trying to call bullshit on your drum. All you can say is it's legal, It's legal, it's legal. I don't see many people denying that. That's not the issue here. How could someone who can design and fabricate a twenty rnd. drum not wrap their mind around this? I'm beginning to suspect that you can't see past your own interests at all. EVER- Here's something else rediculous for you to chew on. A ten rnd. box magazine is not a twenty rnd. drum. One is practical the other is not. One threatens to take many S-12's out of our hands the other does not. One was concieved and brought about with the blessing of the ATF, the the other is not. Get it?

Kevin didn't get the atf approval. He just said that to shut everyone up. He just knew it was legal. People have said that Stonecreek dropped the drum idea after the atf contacted them. That is bullshit to. They were trying to make a 10rd drum. 10rds is 10rds whether in a stick or a drum. They couldn't design it right is why they dropped it.

[akdog 3]

If you really sunk all your money into this, I think you may be deep in shit. Instead of getting so arguementative, why not at least consider a compromise? If these drums were sold incomplete, like they had no locking lugs and required permanent changes to the saiga, or for the drum to be permanently afixed, wouldn't that circumvent the stock saigas from being reclassified? Aren't other alternatives at least worth considering? If there is a way to do this without getting the saiga 12 reclassified, there is no better support base for development and marketing than this forum...

 

I don't think he cares how it will affect anything other than his bank account.

Hes banking on the fact that many Saiga 12 owners will blindly see this as a blessing because they do not understand what will happen next. This is sort of like the blood on the blade trick used to kill wolves. The wolf comes up and starts licking a blade with frozen blood on it. His tongue slashes and bleeds and the fresh blood triggers more licking until the wolf bleeds to death.

Hes laying out the blade (drum) for the unknowing victims.

 

Mike:All i can say is I hope you lose sleep, lose hair, wreck your nerves, develope cancer, or better yet die from a aneurysm, myocardial infarction, pulmonary embolism, or spontaneous combustion before you distribute one mag, if the atf doesn't stop you first.

Edited March 12, 2007 by dog

[jaywalker 1]

You are going to fuck us all. You know not what you trifle with.

[akdog 3]

No, I'm not one of the guys trying to call bullshit on your drum. All you can say is it's legal, It's legal, it's legal. I don't see many people denying that. That's not the issue here. How could someone who can design and fabricate a twenty rnd. drum not wrap their mind around this? I'm beginning to suspect that you can't see past your own interests at all. EVER- Here's something else rediculous for you to chew on. A ten rnd. box magazine is not a twenty rnd. drum. One is practical the other is not. One threatens to take many S-12's out of our hands the other does not. One was concieved and brought about with the blessing of the ATF, the the other is not. Get it?

Kevin didn't get the atf approval. He just said that to shut everyone up. He just knew it was legal. People have said that Stonecreek dropped the drum idea after the atf contacted them. That is bullshit to. They were trying to make a 10rd drum. 10rds is 10rds whether in a stick or a drum. They couldn't design it right is why they dropped it.

 

You just opened up a big can of worms. Why would AGP stop at 10 rounds? Must be some reason.

 

In an old post, Knoxx was quoted as warning Stoney creek about the legalities/consequences of making a drum for the Saiga 12.

[MikeD 541]

If you really sunk all your money into this, I think you may be deep in shit. Instead of getting so arguementative, why not at least consider a compromise? If these drums were sold incomplete, like they had no locking lugs and required permanent changes to the saiga, or for the drum to be permanently afixed, wouldn't that circumvent the stock saigas from being reclassified? Aren't other alternatives at least worth considering? If there is a way to do this without getting the saiga 12 reclassified, there is no better support base for development and marketing than this forum...

 

I don't think he cares how it will affect anything other than his bank account.

Hes banking on the fact that many Saiga 12 owners will blindly see this as a blessing because they do not understand what will happen next. This is sort of like the blood on the blade trick used to kill wolves. The wolf comes up and starts licking a blade with frozen blood on it. His tongue slashes and bleeds and the fresh blood triggers more licking until the wolf bleeds to death.

Hes laying out the blade (drum) for the unknowing victims.

 

Mike:All i can say is I hope you lose sleep, lose hair, wreck your nerves, develope cancer, or better yet die from a aneurysm, myocardial infarction, pulmonary embolism, or spontaneous combustion before you distribute one mag, if the atf doesn't stop you first.

Maybe you can catch canine parvovirus, aka parvo.

[Gunfighter 1]

Mike ---------- just a late night thought , maybe just offer them as "kits" --------- I have seen auto knifes{switchblades} offered in kit form etc.

 

I really have mixed feelings on a 20rd. drum -------- when I bought my USAS-12s , 20rd. drums were about $85 and I bought 1 for each shotgun. The 10rd. stick mags were around $35/$40 each and I got 5 for each gun.

 

I think that MOST people who have S-12s will only buy 1 or maybe 2 of the drums, at the most. I thought I read that your 20rd. drums would retail for over $250 ?? If you sell 500 units that is around $125,000 --- not bad money !!!

 

What I am getting at is what I consider MORALS, ----- make a buck/what the fuck. If I hire wetback Polacks , wetback Mexs , Koreans , Jamacians , Romeys , Slavics etc. etc. {btw,I AM A POLACK} ---- I can make MORE MONEY !!!! Nevermind , that by doing so -- I am helping flush this country down the toilet. Why should I care ??? If I make enough MONEY -- by God , I can live in a guarded/gated community right next to Rosie O'Donnell !!!! FUCK the unwashed masses , who cares !!!!

 

MORALS NOT MONEY is what made this the greatest country on Earth. Look at it now -- look at it 20 years ago.

 

Its all good that YOU live in a state that allows DDs ---- ME ??? I AM ONE OF THE "unwashed masses" that can not.

 

I just hope your "make a buck" does not turn into "get a fuck" for people like me.

 

Mike --- this is nothing PERSONAL -- as I said before; if it was not YOU , there would be another person thinking/making up a drum. You said you wanted one for yourself -- shit , make yourself up a dozen or two. The truth is -- you want to make a buck out of this. In any venture , you pay your money and you take your chances.

 

Mike --- You , AGP , Tony/Tromix etc. -------- I wish you the best and hope YOU ALL do make money from Saigas. BUT, in doing so --- I REALLY HOPE it don't fuck things up for the rest of us unwashed masses.

Gunfighter

[Bvamp 604]

there has been a major change here made about ten minutes ago. I feel like my girlfriend cheated on me, and I am not happy to have had to make the decision. Im sure you will all figure it out

 

 

this fucking subject is DONE! OVER!

 

hey mike, or whatever your name is. thanks for turning my friend against us. maybe the next moderator that isnt loyal enough to give me your real name (even though I hvae it now from your ISP), will think twice about not giving up all information.

 

I told you people I dont like being fucked. here you go.

 

I really am sorry, and I really do feel bad in a big way.

 

there is already discussion of what to do to protect the saiga community from a DD declaration IF the person cannot be stopped with court. only a seperatist or total nutjob that is on a greed thing would pursue a drum mag in this manner for this gun. im thinking that it is both cases, and that I will not see our forum and our thing here be destroyed.

 

I am in a bit of a state of shock right now, so that is all I am going to say for the moment. I did what needed to be done. I sorry. there is a lot more to this than meets the eye, unfortunately, which is this forum's personal and private business. I will relate this personally to long standing members here upon request, in time.

 

if anyone emails you asking why they cannot get on here, tell them that I got rid of a few bad apples and went BIG doing so. I hope I dont screw anyone else.

 

I accept full blame for whats to happen with members here. I am sorry ahead of time. cobra is banned for protecting mike davidson. this has nothing to do with juggernaut being put to work. fucked up timing, though, I have to admit.

 

again, I am very sorry to all that are affected by this change in management. I feel absolutely awful. I feel like my girlfriend just cheated on me and lied to me about it when I saw it happen. I am sorry everybody. the forum will go forward, no matter what needs to be done. I gave you all my word, and I intend to follow through on it.

 

 

 

 

7 am edit: I am not amused by this latest drum issue in the least. I will go further to add, that this topic was extremyl suspicious, in that it just so happened that I caught a huge amount of shit from cobra for making juggernaut a moderator last thursday, APPARANTLY AFTER "mike" had contacted cobra about this subject. it is HIGHLY suspicious that the topic was started when it is known that neither myself nor indyarms isnt here at that time for a day or two (the weekend, we do have lives, ya know) it is intersting to note that my former friend had not one response in this topic, when that is PART OF HIS FUCKING JOB to stomp this bullshit out when it starts. this raised extreme suspicion last night from myself and a few others, and action was taken to ensure that my understanding of the situation was clear, and I then related it directly to the owner of this forum. we are tired of being screwed. this forum is where the ideas came from, this is where the research was done, and that is how we are repaid, huh? nice, thanks a lot. just dont get your panties in a cynch when we put the "smack" down on you for it. un-appreciative, greedy assholes, if you ask me.

 

we want this forum to expand and continue to grow at the rate it has been the last three years. this will directly prevent that, cobra knows this, and his reasoning was that "at least I can get a mag out of it" when confronted in an admittedly underhanded manner.

 

If it does come down to that I have to get a petition and get it to mr nixon at the facist ATF to ban drum magazines from being manufactured or sold in the USA for semi-automatic shotguns that are not currently classified as a destructive device, then so be it. THAT should be the fucking law ANYWAY if they want one. fucking idiots. maybe the gun owners NEED to straighten this gun control bullshit out by making REAL fucking laws that make sense. its either THAT, or just watch our rights slowly go the way of the dodo.

 

but I will be fucking godDAMNED if Im going to let these assholes use OUR FORUM to further thier means to greed. if mike wants his twenty fucking dollars back that he dontated last year, Ill send it to him myself, even though I have about nothing. fuck him, the horse he rode in on, and anyone else with him.

 

I have already had a number of emails and messages supporting me completely from people I would never have expected here. I appreciate them all, and keep the opinions coming. this is OUR forum. there are only a handful of controlling things in a limited fashion here, so all input that is thoughtful and honest is greatly appreciated.

 

the decisions made last night are permanent as of right now. this guy was my FRIEND. you all need to understand how hard of a decision it was for us here to make. I had to make the call, as it was me who nominated him and made him moderator to begin with. it sucks, but that is that. if I cant depend on my friends to look out for us, then I guess it is up to me to make the awful choice and do what should have been done.

 

I will leave this thread up for a while so that the rest of the gun community can have thier laughs at myself and our forum like they usually do, and so that you all understand that we dont fuck around with what threatens us and you all. Im sorry if im being rude about it, but that is what I have to say. in part. tune in for more.

 

drums of any capacity and stick mags in excess of ten rounds for semi auto shotguns that are perfectly legal to own by joe schmoe are legal to make, yeh, but maybe that needs to change. it is an excuse for the ATF to ban guns that they normally CANT. BAN THE FUCKING MAGS ALREADY and be done with the whole fuckin thing. the mag dont make the gun a DD, its the mag that is the DD. people need to see the light, and just face the facts as to how it REALLY is. if you think about it, that would put this matter at a dead freaking end for the gun grabbers.

 

besides, Im more interested in our forum, its prosperity, and the joe schomes out there who are a part of this community. not a few quick bucks and a cool mag. you WONT find a better shotgun out there. why let them take it? a LOT of people will get 200 bucks for thier shotguns and no grandfathering. Im protecting mine, this forum's owner's, and this forum's member's interests here. And I dont care WHO hates me for it.

 

it aint about you or me. it is about the fucking gun, our rights, and the guys that can only afford the AKM because they dont have a grand to shell out for another shotgun that does the same thing.

 

We are tired of this community being walked on out of greed, for whatever circumstance it may be.