It aint good. taking bets

[rocinante 100]

OKAY. I am a self confessed tool tool and for once I thought I would get some help. I got the bullet guide kit from dinzag very quickly I might add. Well my neighbor has a drill press and is very competent and had done tapping before yada yada yada. You guys know the punch line right? THE %$*!% tap snapped. We tried a few other drill bits to bore it out but they either broke or dulled or just walked off the the tap metal. Absolutely zero zero zero joy fellow saiganites, One of your own has stumbled badly.

 

SO what is my plan B? You know the good lord has not always been kind or chummy to use rednecks. besides bar be que and nascar I really can not think of too many favors except DUCT TAPE and J.B. WELD. You heard me. I am trying to J.B. Weld that guide in there. What are my odds of it holding?????

 

Just venting. If the J.B. does not hold I will find a machine shop or something. That will be a bend over for sure.

[Bvamp 604]

take a pair of needle nose pliars and grind the tips if you have to, some wd40, and ease the thing out backwards. next attempt at tapping, dont go straight in with it. turn the tap in a little, back it out, wd40, screw it in again, tap it in somemore, back it out, etc etc.

[quinci956 1]

take a pair of needle nose pliars and grind the tips if you have to, some wd40, and ease the thing out backwards. next attempt at tapping, dont go straight in with it. turn the tap in a little, back it out, wd40, screw it in again, tap it in somemore, back it out, etc etc.

Sounds like a total loss. I'll give you $50.00 for it as it sits.

Seriously, I had the smae problem and ended up using the rivet that came with it frm K-Var. I had to drill the hole bigger and then heated the rivet and tapped it in. I know it is not supposed to but it and the other one I did that way are still holding after many rounds. As far as getting the broken tap out, I was able to remove one with the method Bvamp suggested. The second one broke off flush so I used a punch and tapped it through. There is a space behind there that it will fall into and then you can tilt the rifle and it will fall out.

Edited June 9, 2007 by madmilo

[Bvamp 604]

I see guys pull broken taps with the method above with success.

[Navy87Guy 1]

I guess you didn't see my post last week about the bullet guide. I did the exact same thing!

 

It took some time, but I was able to drill mine out. Of course, the hole was a bit oversized, so I ended up using an 8-32 screw and tapping the hole appropriately. It worked like a champ. Talk to Dinzag -- he has some options to rework the bullet guide for you if you have to do something really dramatic.

 

There's nothing as sickening as that **snap** sound when the tap breaks! And I really thought I was going slowly, too...

 

Jim

[rocinante 100]

I already glued it in with JB Weld.

 

If that fails I will accept all told you sos and suck it up and try to get the freaking tap out.

 

What size drill bit? I went to sears and got two cobalt drill bits 5/32 and 7/32. When I got back they look HUGE. Upon reinterpreting I figured out #6 - 32 is not 6/32 of an inch. What size drill bit would come closes?

[cscharlie 107]

When using any tap do it like BVAMP said. Use cutting oil of some kind. Turn it in a little, and then back it out add a little oil during the process.

 

If you do break off the tap, they usually are made of metal that's brittle enough, that they can be shattered with a good, sharp punch. This is a lot easier for me than drilling them out.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I twisted my tap laterally on the 8th runnion, and it broke... I shouldnt admit this as I blabbed so much about it being a moronic thing to do it...Anyways... I took a ctraight punch and a hammer, and ONE SINGLE WHACK took it out right out the bottom, no fuss no muss... I put another tap in the same hole and retapped and threaded, no problem... give it a whack, thats an "easy out" lol should work for you... make sure the punch is smaller diameter than the unthreaded center of the tap, too...

 

 

[quinci956 1]

I already glued it in with JB Weld.

 

If that fails I will accept all told you sos and suck it up and try to get the freaking tap out.

 

What size drill bit? I went to sears and got two cobalt drill bits 5/32 and 7/32. When I got back they look HUGE. Upon reinterpreting I figured out #6 - 32 is not 6/32 of an inch. What size drill bit would come closes?

Yeah let us know how it holds. By the time I finished my first one the hole was so big and uneven I had to go with the Rivet. It is holding so far but if it quits I may try the JB. I can just use a larger screw on the other one.

I was useing cutting oil and turning and loosening but the tap kept binding and broke as I was attempting to loosen it. I even thought of silver soldering it in but got pissed and beat the rivet in.

[rocinante 100]

Well I got the gun back together and hand cycled a couple hundred rounds without nary problem. I guess the real test is when the gun is fired. I wonder how the shock and heat will affect it. I PREDICT THAT SUCKER IS THERE FOR LIFE!!!! Well that is what I hope. Will keep you posted.

 

Next fiasco is going to be trying to thread the barrel

[dinzag 31]

Well this is after the fact, but...

 

I've fixed a couple broken tap situations before. Use a springloaded automatic centerpunch with a carbide tip.

$2.50-$5.00 at harbor freight. Those taps will chip apart.

 

You can also just drive it through with a punch, usually the teeth will peel off or it breaks apart.

 

A #6-32 tap requires a #36 drill bit. If you go to #8-32, use a #29 drill.

 

The #6-32 taps are fragile, for sure. Make sure to use lube and back of constantly - meaning turn a little, back off 180 degrees, turn a little more, back off, etc, etc, etc... You can usually see/feel them flex which is a precursor to bad things. Pretend they are like glass.

 

If you can't get a #6-32 thread to hold, move up to a #8-32. If that fails, is drill a clearance hole all the way through & put a nut on the bottom.

 

I am in the process of revamping the guides so they all have #8-32 fasteners. Actually the x39 round trunnion is the last one I have to change.

[BobAsh 582]

Man not JB weld again....

[Bvamp 604]

those guys love JB weld, dont they?

[rocinante 100]

When all else fails and you are desperate you turn to J.C. and J.B.

 

Not hearing what I expected though. Even though it is not proper it is going to hold for 1,2, a gazillion shots? Hard to say huh?

Edited June 11, 2007 by rocinante

[jimmy_stikx 0]

It'll break, all that's holding it is that tap and JB weld. You might get a 1,000 rnds out of it, but, why wait to fix a problem later, when you can do so now?

 

Now I'm as big a fan of duct tape, bailing wire and JB weld as the next redneck, but I have seen it fail.

 

 

I wouldn't, personally use anything other than a rivet or a grade 8 machine screw of decent quality.

[rocinante 100]

I am going to figure it out. Thanks for the help guys.

[BobAsh 582]

How big is the tap, roc?

[rocinante 100]

How big is the tap, roc?

 

Per dinzag the tap is #6-32 tap requires a #36 drill bit.

 

My plan is after work go to lowes with this whole printed out thread and see if I can find a suitable punch to drive that stubborn tap out. I already tried to grab it with pliers and twist it but it just snapped off. So at this moment it is flush with the metal and nothing to grab. I suppose I could dig around it with my dremel enough to try to get another bite on it but I think that effort would be futile since it just crumbled the last time I had a hold on it.

 

If I can drive it out I will be ecstatic BUT knowing my luck I aint holding my breath.

 

If I do knock the die out will the threads it cut still be okay? If I got another 6-32 tap could I attempt to keep the hole the same size and use the screw that came with it?

 

If I fail to knock out the die I will try to drill it to the next size which per dinzag would be #8-32, use a #29 drill bit.

 

If I can not accomplish any of that stuff I will call around and find some pro help. It is my gun and it will be with me for years and the more I think about it just having the nag that the guide may turn loose some day and spoil my fun just does not cut it. It is not like I have never boogered up something before and needed someone with better tools to save my ass.

 

as far as drill bits isn't cobalt about the hardest sharpest I can find? Titanium does not seem to cut it no pun intended.

Edited June 11, 2007 by rocinante

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Cobalt is way better than titanium.

The tap that you are attempting to drive out is hardened steel and it's very brittle, hence your little situation...The idea is to smack it so hard that it shatters, not just drives thru. It may even help to freeze it first. I heard somewhere once about spraying ether (starter fluid) on it to get it really cold just before slamming it. The tap should break into small enough pieces so that it doesn't ruin the threads you have started.

[rocinante 100]

My wife thought I was nuts when I asked if I could bake my gun but now I have to tell her I want to freeze it?????

 

The time for foolishness has done past! Time to OVERCOME!

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Here's how I remove broken taps and bolts when the situation allows it:

I take a dremel with metal cutting wheel. I carefully cut a slot in the bolt/tap to allow it to be turned with a screwdriver. Penetrating oil and patience are crucial ingredients.

 

Now it's my turn for a true confession - my first Saiga bullet guide was a piece of pipe... PVC pipe to be exact. Sanded it down into the traditional shape. It was just supposed to be a stop-gap measure. I just shoved it in there in the space between the barrel and the trunion.

 

Well whadaya know... the thing held there for years and hundreds of rounds. When it finally popped out, the people I was shooting with thought it was a tragic malfunction of a beloved gun of mine. I was just like "Wow, it finally came out." I promptly installed a metal guide with a screw in the typical fashion and haven't had a problem since.

[rocinante 100]

Okay instead of just being screwed I now have a bullet guide screwed down. What worked was a pin punch that forced that broken die through. Redrilled it and retaped it and viola. Let me do my tally by my count I only have two bubba'd improvisions ( used carriage bolt instead of ak nut, retainer pins made out paper clips) so this is OFFICIALLY NOT A RED NECK GUN Hand cycled fine once I got my rhythm.

[csspecs 1,987]

Why did you use paper clips for the retainers? You just cut all but the last two loops off the spring thats already in there and connect the loop to the safety. All of my saigas have the same retainers they came with, I just bent them a little bit more (and you never take the safety out anyway).

 

And how is it you all snap taps off? I have used everything for harbor freight to German made 25.00 a piece, taps and never snapped one off. Focus on how thick the tap metal is and don't try to get more than you can, heck I normally use a cordless drill to run taps because the drill gives me feedback on how much tension I'm putting on it.

 

Oh yeah the carriage bolt works perfectly if you bend it a bit. No shame in saving 8.00 for a 20 cent bolt.

[rocinante 100]

Why did you use paper clips for the retainers? You just cut all but the last two loops off the spring thats already in there and connect the loop to the safety. All of my saigas have the same retainers they came with, I just bent them a little bit more (and you never take the safety out anyway).

 

And how is it you all snap taps off? I have used everything for harbor freight to German made 25.00 a piece, taps and never snapped one off. Focus on how thick the tap metal is and don't try to get more than you can, heck I normally use a cordless drill to run taps because the drill gives me feedback on how much tension I'm putting on it.

 

Oh yeah the carriage bolt works perfectly if you bend it a bit. No shame in saving 8.00 for a 20 cent bolt.

 

 

I like my little paper clip thing because I can shape them just so and easily grab the tip with pliers to remove them individually. I will probably figure out something like you did or use the retaining spring I bought but can not find.

 

I did not snap the tap my friend did. If you read the threads it seems to be a pretty common occurance though.

 

As far as carriage bolts when I did the shotgun it did not have the pistol grip hole precut. I just cut a square just the size of the carriage bolt square and used the carriage bolt as is. I did have to square the head off so it would fit inside the ace internal block. Also that time my tapco saw grip did not come with a screw. Happy with my solution.

 

On the rifle it had the pistol grip hole already cut. Actually once I removed the trigger guard I did not have to do any mods to the bottom of the receiver at all. This time the grip came with the screw but I could not locate the ak nut I had bought previously. So I resorted to trying a carriage bolt again but the pistol grip hole was too big. Ideal would of finding a big and wide washer but I had a spring that wide enough at the base to span the pistol grip hole and small enough at top to fit the carriage bolt head. Worked well and the grip is gutentite,

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

rocinante it sounds like you have a floating black hole somewhere in your shop too...lol. Mine likes to eat things like floorplates, hand tools, and pretty much anything that hits the floor.

 

I posted a thread in the tech section about how to make a good retainer spring out of your original Saiga spring that works great. I wouldn't trust a paper clip, too soft and not springy.

 

I've used carriage bolts when using Saw grips because you can skip cutting the PG nut hole and just put it thru the old trigger hole and it fits tight. I put a bend in it to match the grip angle.

 

Everyone makes a mistake every now and then. It's not hard to brake a tap if you don't take your time. Key is to only advance it about a quarter turn and then back off and repeat til done. Another key is lubrication. Slap some KY on that bad boy! A drill also works great to keep it straight. If you use the clutch on your cordless drill you won't brake any taps.