Grut 0 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Howdy, first timer here and I have a question. I have been trying to get a Saiga 12, either stock or modified but have not been able to find any for sale, they seem to be stuck in Russia somewhere. So I was wondering, I see a lot of US or made AK clones out there, why no US made Saiga 12s? I don't think it would be a licencing issue, would it? I have been looking into a S12 for a while and from what I read they seem to have satisfied owners and there would seem to be a market for them, even at double the price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 I would think it would be the cost of producing it here, since the reason alot of us flocked to the S-12 was the price for a semi-auto 12 gauge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 It's the price, all right. It would cost twice as much to produce as an S12 costs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
quinci956 1 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 It's the price, all right. It would cost twice as much to produce as an S12 costs. I know someone that is gearing up as we speak to produce a US made version of the S12. It will be in the AK configuration with the pistol grip and BHO. The dust cover will also be hinged to flip up and there will be other improvements in the stock gun. He believes he can bring it in for about the same as a converted S12. I post when he gets closer to starting the project and give an update. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 All the "US Made" AKs you see are not made in the USA. They are made from imported parts, and use enough USA made parts to be considered "US Made". The smiths who do this work bought some of these imported parts kits for very little money. Century starts with low-cap imports, opens up the mag wells so you can use high cap milsurp mags, and adds enough US parts for the rifle to be considered "US Made" The majority of the expensive machining / casting work was done overseas on any "US Made" AK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 It's the price, all right. It would cost twice as much to produce as an S12 costs. I know someone that is gearing up as we speak to produce a US made version of the S12. It will be in the AK configuration with the pistol grip and BHO. The dust cover will also be hinged to flip up and there will be other improvements in the stock gun. He believes he can bring it in for about the same as a converted S12. I post when he gets closer to starting the project and give an update. That will be interesting to see. While it's certainly possible to reproduce anything domestically, I figured they weren't being made here because no surplus pats kits are available on the market yet. I'm not aware of any "US Made" AK that isn't made from at least some surplus parts; correct me if I'm wrong on that. While some of the S12 parts are common to other AKs, it seems that a domestic producer will have their work cut out for them in trying to repllicate all of the unique parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 BTW, A hinged dust cover means it won't be compatible with a halo. ...if that matters. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 "I know someone that is gearing up as we speak to produce a US made version of the S12" We have been looking at it for a while now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Wow, a genuine 100% Tromix-made Saiga-12? That'd be awesome! Thats gotta be the only way to improve on the original Ruskie version! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Yep. <looks around> We're definitely in America. lol You guys remind me near daily why I love this country. As for US made AK's: Arsenal. I think they imported an entire production plant, plus workers, from Bulgaria to the US. If their stuff isn't US made, that's a mistake on my part. They certainly charge enough for them to be though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 The Russians made the S-12 as close as possible to the original AK to use as many parts as possible. Take that factor out and you can design for less expensive manufacturing. I think an American company could produce a shotgun similar in capability to the S-12 for under a grand, but it wouldn't be interchangeable, just "inspired" by the S-12. Figure you'd save some manufacturing and money by not converting to sporter config and then converting back to p-grip. I could make such a shotgun. Just give me the time and money. What I can't promise to do is compete effectively with people who've been doing it much longer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Yep. <looks around> We're definitely in America. lol You guys remind me near daily why I love this country. As for US made AK's: Arsenal. I think they imported an entire production plant, plus workers, from Bulgaria to the US. If their stuff isn't US made, that's a mistake on my part. They certainly charge enough for them to be though... I know arsenal started with surplus parts, but I'm not sure if they started manufacturing domestically or not. I believe they are still using Bulgarian parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Yep. <looks around> We're definitely in America. lol You guys remind me near daily why I love this country. As for US made AK's: Arsenal. I think they imported an entire production plant, plus workers, from Bulgaria to the US. If their stuff isn't US made, that's a mistake on my part. They certainly charge enough for them to be though... which Arsenal are we talking about? Arsenal USA or Arsenal Inc? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Well, since you mentioned it would be Patterned after the S12, and not a copy, I'm putting in my vote early! Move the gas system 90 degrees to either side so the bbl is on the sighting plain! This gives a much better ability to hit moving game and clays. I can't hit skeet worth beans with my S12, but they are in real danger if I use my 1187! Trap doesn't make as much difference (less swing). I haven't hunted with the S12, but would be willing to bet that game on the wing would be better with conventional sighting plain. Heck, you can even move it under the bbl (you'll have to figure out the conflict with the mag opening). What, huh, time to wake up? Well, a man can dream can't he? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Nalioth: After searching on Yahoo for a bit, it seems that both are names for the same company. In case there's something I missed, I'm reffering to the company located in Las Vegas, NV. Reading their site doesn't give a good idea of how many parts they manufacture for themselves. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 TR-12.....................yep. ( !!!! ) ...already on that list............ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Nalioth: After searching on Yahoo for a bit, it seems that both are names for the same company. In case there's something I missed, I'm reffering to the company located in Las Vegas, NV. Reading their site doesn't give a good idea of how many parts they manufacture for themselves. Arsenal USA is in Houston, Texas (or was until recently) and is/was part of Global Trades. Arsenal Inc is in Las Vegas and K-Var (yes, that K-Var) is a sister company of theirs. Both companies imported Bulgarian AK factory workers and some equipment, and both companies start with factory new rifle parts imported from Eastern Europe. Which is why I was confused. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Ah. Thank you for clearing that up. I did one of the dumbest things one can: I made an assumption. The particular assumption I made was that these companies might have moved production equipment for all of their parts over here. It really would have explained the high price of their rifles nicely. It wouldn't make sense cost-wise though. D'oh! Of course they're only going to produce the "easiest to make" parts (stocks, hand-guards, pistol grips) here (plus the receiver) and import the rest. <sarcasm> Damn. Another of my fantasies shattered mercilessly by economics! </sarcasm> OK. I'm done. I promise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
quinci956 1 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 It's the price, all right. It would cost twice as much to produce as an S12 costs. I know someone that is gearing up as we speak to produce a US made version of the S12. It will be in the AK configuration with the pistol grip and BHO. The dust cover will also be hinged to flip up and there will be other improvements in the stock gun. He believes he can bring it in for about the same as a converted S12. I post when he gets closer to starting the project and give an update. That will be interesting to see. While it's certainly possible to reproduce anything domestically, I figured they weren't being made here because no surplus pats kits are available on the market yet. I'm not aware of any "US Made" AK that isn't made from at least some surplus parts; correct me if I'm wrong on that. While some of the S12 parts are common to other AKs, it seems that a domestic producer will have their work cut out for them in trying to repllicate all of the unique parts. He has a source for complete US receivers and he is going to CNC the trunion (that metal block where the barrel and gas tube join the receiver. I think that's what it's called). He says he can get the 12 GA barrels made for about $30 each. Once all that is together, the stocks, handguards, and FCG's are all readily available. He wants to use the Krebs type or H&K type sights. It looks like all the parts may even be interchangeable with the S12. He is frustrated like everyone else about the shortage of S12's. He makes a living trying to sell and manufacture guns and the shortage is not helping. The typical red blooded American attitude, "If I can't find one, I'll make it myself!". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 He is frustrated like everyone else about the shortage of S12's. He makes a living trying to sell and manufacture guns and the shortage is not helping. The typical red blooded American attitude, "If I can't find one, I'll make it myself!". ....and then sell it for profit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 He has a source for complete US receivers and he is going to CNC the trunion (that metal block where the barrel and gas tube join the receiver. I think that's what it's called). He says he can get the 12 GA barrels made for about $30 each. Once all that is together, the stocks, handguards, and FCG's are all readily available. He wants to use the Krebs type or H&K type sights. It looks like all the parts may even be interchangeable with the S12. He is frustrated like everyone else about the shortage of S12's. He makes a living trying to sell and manufacture guns and the shortage is not helping. The typical red blooded American attitude, "If I can't find one, I'll make it myself!". Tell him to add a little bit of length to the tang off the top of the barrel inside the chamber. It will ELIMINATE the shortest of the 2 3/4 rounds from being able to nose up like they do now every once in a while. Get with me if you need more detail. The Russian's over looked this because there 2 3/4 rounds seem to be more standard. It isn't possible to nose up their ammo and it can easily be that way for ALL ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tgr934x4 0 Posted August 1, 2007 Report Share Posted August 1, 2007 Yep. <looks around> We're definitely in America. lol You guys remind me near daily why I love this country. As for US made AK's: Arsenal. I think they imported an entire production plant, plus workers, from Bulgaria to the US. If their stuff isn't US made, that's a mistake on my part. They certainly charge enough for them to be though... I know arsenal started with surplus parts, but I'm not sure if they started manufacturing domestically or not. I believe they are still using Bulgarian parts. Arsenal, that is making the well made AK 223 side folder, now does manufacture ALL, yes ALL of its parts in the USA. They are even making there own receivers in the US as of now. I know because I just bought two one with the import parts and one that has every part new from them and made in the USA. Guess there will be no import ban on the Arsenal AK's. I would complain about 922, but the implementation of switching parts to make them legal has only made my rifles better and more accurate. It will be interesting to see the mod's coming form arsenal now and with the quality of there work it will be nice to put on what ever I want and not worry about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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