TonyRumore 1,332 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 This was posted by Jason Hinkle over on Subguns. Jason got me into the Saiga market back in 2004 and owns the very first prototype 12" Tromix SBS. He's a pretty colorful guy....... Hinkle writes...... OK so I finally took most of the shotguns out for a spin on the old Chronograph. What I found is that, basically, those of you chuckleheads with no empirical data who have been yapping your cockholsters about how short barrels on shotguns seriously affect ballistics are fucking wrong. Lots of wrong. Like I said long ago, shotgun powder IS pistol powder- it burns fast and quick, and barrel length doesn't fucking matter that much. I can't .PDF a spreadsheet on this computer so I'll get really slow and dumb like those who talk out their ass about ballistics with no basis in reality and list the average FPS for the shot strings. First, using shitass birdshot- 12 gauge, 2 3/4 inches, 1 oz shot 12" barrel average FPS- 1040 14" barrel average FPS- 1069 18" barrel average FPS- 1114 19.5" barrel average FPS- 1114 20" barrel average FPS- 1108 28" barrel average FPS- 1159 Then using Remington 00 Buck- 12" barrel average FPS- 1121 14" barrel average FPS- 1127 18" barrel average FPS- 1216 19.5" barrel average FPS- 1205 20" barrel average FPS- 1182 28" barrel average FPS- 1250 Wow- 119-129 FPS velocity loss in 16 inches of barrel. That's devastating. Oh wait- no, it's actually not, it's fucking nothing at all and is actually about the same velocity variation in factory loaded ammo. I will feel as comfortable fucking up a bear using a shotgun with a 12 inch barrel as I would using one with a 28 inch barrel. Those of you clammering over 20 gauge Serbu Super Shortys rather than the biting sting of a 12 gauge to dust up a gravel pit should stick with the shortest of shotshells. I wouldn't want you to drop your purse while shooting. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 hehehehe, Tony, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel .... I don't know what the tacticians would say about loosing 100+ fps, but shotgun is often overkill on stuff/game at close range so I doubt it does matter. BTW, IMO, the ultimate SBS are chamber length. There was a company "little skeeters" (sold out to browning, IIRC) that had chamber inserts that allowed 12ga to chamber 20, 28 and 40. They were the length of the shotty shell, so basically a 0 inch bbl. They were targeted to skeet cometitors (as the name implies), so they had enough umph to break clays at 15 yards, but had to be fast enough not to alter the lead needed on crossing shots too much (or they would never have marketed them). A close second is that pistol that fires both .45 long colt and .410! But a huge thumbs up for testing it with the real deal. BTW, I think the powder burns out 12 - 18 inches (I don't recall). But what this means is that late burn is making very little difference in ballistics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 kmoore, that's Jason Hinkle talking- not Tony. This is good info. I'm still laughing at "cockholsters". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BUFF_dragon 3 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 I find it interesting that a 20inch barrel is not as good as either an 18-19.5-28..... that is an oddity that caught my attention.. good info to have though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
segasaiga 0 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 I find it interesting that a 20inch barrel is not as good as either an 18-19.5-28..... that is an oddity that caught my attention.. good info to have though... Yeah, thats wild. I wonder what the physics are that cause the 20" to be like that? Anyone know? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Well, I wonder how many sample of each he tested. Could be normal variation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kalash 0 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 It would probably be a bigger difference if you were shooting slugs instead of shot. I'd be interested in what the spread would be with those and the different barrel lengths. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted August 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Caspian posted some slug data a couple of years ago, and I believe the velocity drop was more than what Hink's test shows here. Here's a chart posted by Jeff Z, writer for Small Arms Review Magazine, note the velocity drop with the 20" barrel in his tests as well. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 My data was using slugs @ around 10 feet from the chronograph. i think i only used one slug/barrel length since i didn't have a huge supply of slugs at the time. I had greater drops of velocity, but the final velocity from a 7" barrel was still substantial enough to put an end to the critter on the receiving end. caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crosshair 1 Posted September 2, 2007 Report Share Posted September 2, 2007 Geze, good info, but he sure has something against the 20 Gauge. Some of us want to be able to use our hands and arms after we shoot. It's always fun to watch people like that get all pissy when they get beaten by someone with something smaller/cheaper/lighter/etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NoAim 0 Posted September 2, 2007 Report Share Posted September 2, 2007 My data was using slugs @ around 10 feet from the chronograph. i think i only used one slug/barrel length since i didn't have a huge supply of slugs at the time. I had greater drops of velocity, but the final velocity from a 7" barrel was still substantial enough to put an end to the critter on the receiving end. caspian Caspian, Could we impose on your to re-post your data here in this thread? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
random sylvester 0 Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 very interesting info, I bet it will be hard convincing the old man ,maybe the old double barrells are 30" just to improve sighting. just about the last chart on spread , before everyone gets out their hachsaws is that with full choke or open does barrell length affect spread with a full choke ?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 very interesting info, I bet it will be hard convincing the old man ,maybe the old double barrells are 30" just to improve sighting. just about the last chart on spread , before everyone gets out their hachsaws is that with full choke or open does barrell length affect spread with a full choke ?? Pretty tough to do that experiment. A lot of variables affect pellet spread. But the theoretical answer is no, bbl length will not affect pellet spread given the same choke. As you mentioned, most of the "old men" with shotguns are interested in how hard something hits (with choke, how hard does it hit at distance). A longer bbl facilitates a better aimed hit, so it will hit harder. The answer is patterning. One of the things that affects performance is the internal dimensions of the bbl, esp the length of the tapering/choking section. Many hold that if you ONLY need a full choke (i.e. shooting trap from the 26 yard line) the old fixed choke bbls gave a better performance. Screw in chokes force the constriction in a short distance, older bbls did it more gradually. But there aren't many fixed choke models because of the flexibility screw chokes offer, to the most versatile firearm platform on the planet ... But to the question. As long as you were measuring from the muzzles (proper technique) and both were screw choked and nothing funky going on with bbl internals, they should perform the same. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
banshee 69 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) I find it interesting that a 20inch barrel is not as good as either an 18-19.5-28..... that is an oddity that caught my attention.. good info to have though... Yeah, thats wild. I wonder what the physics are that cause the 20" to be like that? Anyone know? Small arms Reveiw magazine had the same results with the 20 inch barrel. I don't remember which issue, but I think it was last year. They took a single shot 12 ga and cut the barrel 1 inch at a time and chronographed it all the way down to about 7 inches Edited October 1, 2009 by Banshee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YARP 300 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 I have one of the 24 in barrels on my first saiga, I was thinking about cutting it down to 20 in. Guess I'll rethink that. So I guess I'll cut it between 18 and 19 inches... Or I could use this as the perfect time to chrono and cut while at the range to give some data. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsky59721 3 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) "A close second is that pistol that fires both .45 long colt and .410!" Its called a Taurus Judge Edited October 1, 2009 by bigsky59721 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colon Terminus 61 Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 "A close second is that pistol that fires both .45 long colt and .410!" Its called a Taurus Judge Like this one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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