Accuracy of M14 and S-308

[BrandonfromTampa 1]

I've always wanted an M14 because they are awesome rifles that fire an awesome cartridge. Unfortunately the civilian M-14 copies are about two and a half grand. I was excited when I found out about the S-308 because it fires the same cartridge and can be purchased for approximately one quarter of the cost of the M-14, but how accurate are they. Can I take a deer confidently at 200 yards with one or is it just not that kind of gun?

[Genocide 0]

I can get 1.5" groups at 100 yards with south African ammunition with ease, and 6" groups at 300 yards fairly well. I'd say thats good enough for most hunting trips for myself.

 

I'm doing this with a converted 22" S308 with a RSA adjustable trigger installed and a POSP 4-8x42mm, I'm not sure if others can achieve this with a stock unconverted trigger, but they should be fairly close.

[SOPMOD 254]

I've always wanted an M14 because they are awesome rifles that fire an awesome cartridge. Unfortunately the civilian M-14 copies are about two and a half grand. I was excited when I found out about the S-308 because it fires the same cartridge and can be purchased for approximately one quarter of the cost of the M-14, but how accurate are they. Can I take a deer confidently at 200 yards with one or is it just not that kind of gun?

 

 

Yes,yes and yes. As a long time M1A user I can honestly say that an S308 will do anything that a rack grade milspec M1A will do.Maybe not the accuracy of the newer commercial models without some tuning but definitely in the 2"@100yds category and with probably a greater measure of reliability and robustness.

 

If I was going to run iron sights and no scope the M1A would be better

 

If I was needing to stock up on lot's of hicap mags S308 are $45 and M14 are $25

 

If you shoot with a bunch of gun snobs they may snicker at your "Aykay"

 

If you plan on keeping the conventional stock instead of going to a pistol grip it will be hard to get as good a trigger pull as an M1A

 

You can spend $1000+ on getting an Saiga 308 how you want it and you could find a used M1A for right around $1000 so if the M1A is your hearts desire then don't rule it out and the older all USGI models though lacking the accuracy of the newer models are more robust and meant for the long haul.

 

 

I personally pick the Saiga 308 based on the Kalashnikov being the "Long Haul Trucker" of the firearms world and more reliable and robust than any other competing small arms system by reputation.Is my commercial Saiga in a higher powered caliber going to hold up as long as an AKM in 7.62x39? I don't know but considering that Izhmash uses the same technology on their Saiga rifles that they use in their military weapons it should hold up at least as well as any other 308 Kalashnikov variant and I have yet to see one fail in 20 years of paying attention to such things.

 

Here's my work in progress

 

I've spent more on tricking it out than the whole rifle cost me to buy and will eventually be putting over a grand in optics on it and I wouldn't trade it for a new commercial M1A(FAL,HK91,etc)

[SOPMOD 254]

Oops,Double Post

Edited September 28, 2007 by SOPMOD

[fossten 1]

You mind telling me where you can find a used M1A for $1,000? I've never seen that.

[SOPMOD 254]

You mind telling me where you can find a used M1A for $1,000? I've never seen that.

 

 

Well I suppose it depends on where you live but in Oklahoma you will see one in a pawn shop occasionally or on the used gun rack in some of the larger shops.

 

Back before the M1A had a resurgence and got popular with the "Gun Yuppies" you could buy a rack grade Springfield brand new for $650 circa 1996 but a combination of Gun Yuppies seeing one in Black Hawk Down,The US military drying up all of the surplus USGI parts,the barrel ban stopping importation of M14 kits from Israel and Springfield's aggressive marketing strategy of giving M1As away for free to all of the gunwriters to recreate interest they were not the world's most desirable 308 rifle having even been replaced in military High Power shooting by the acceptance of AR15 clones causing serious competitors to lose interest in the M1A.

 

I built my lugged receiver,last Krieger barreled match gun in 1994 for $1200 and that would be an almost $3000 rifle in today's climate

Edited September 28, 2007 by SOPMOD

[snake54 0]

New in box M1A will run about 1300. With handloads, my S308 and my M1A, will do 1" at 100yds. Amazingly, the same load for each.

[fossten 1]

New in box M1A will run about 1300. With handloads, my S308 and my M1A, will do 1" at 100yds. Amazingly, the same load for each.

Hey snake, just out of curiosity, what's your reloading setup? I'm looking to get into it.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=16968

 

There's some info about reloading and various setups in that post.

[fossten 1]

Thanks, Buck, I've got a copy of "The ABCs of Reloading" but I was just wondering what kind of setup snake was using.

[snake54 0]

New in box M1A will run about 1300. With handloads, my S308 and my M1A, will do 1" at 100yds. Amazingly, the same load for each.

Hey snake, just out of curiosity, what's your reloading setup? I'm looking to get into it.

 

 

Just using cheap LEE press I got 25+ years ago, RCBS dies, regular and small base, CCI#200 primers, IMR 4064 41gr (light load) and 165gr Rem Corelokts(bought 1k 20yrs ago). I also use the LEE hand priming tool. RCBS case trimmer. Turns out top quality ammo, but is a bit slow, but my time isn't worth anything, according to .gov. AS ALWAYS,YMMV

 

EDIT: Using LYMAN 48th ed. Reloading Handbook

Edited September 29, 2007 by snake54

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i dont own a M14 (wish i did) but i have read ppl's reports from gun club owners that see ppl bring in a new M14 to the range and the clips keep falling out of the weapon(they see this alot), they say you must buy a mil-spec reciever to fix the problem.dont know if its true but i have read it alot.

 

i get 1" @ 100yrd out of my off the rack 22"saiga-308 useing fed power-shok 150gr / horandy match 168gr. no mod , factory trigger useing a 3x9 40mm scope, semi supported off the bench never shot it at 300yrd, the range i go to only goes to 100yrds

 

pending on where u are hunting/terrain range may be a factor in my neck of the woods its Very rare to get a 300yrd shot most common is 25 -100 yrd shot which the saiga is just fine for where i hunt. I'm very happy with my saiga-308

only complaint ive got is $45.00 for 20rnd mag and dam ammo is getting expensive might be time to start practicing with my 10/22 (lol)

[fossten 1]

i dont own a M14 (wish i did) but i have read ppl's reports from gun club owners that see ppl bring in a new M14 to the range and the clips keep falling out of the weapon(they see this alot), they say you must buy a mil-spec reciever to fix the problem.dont know if its true but i have read it alot.

Just a point of order, cryptkeeper...

 

M1 Garands use clips, M14s use magazines. I wasn't sure at first which rifle you were talking about.

[snake54 0]

If shooting a M1 (Garand), the clip is supposed to fall out, after the 8th shot. If the MAGAZINE is falling out of a M14 type weapon, either they didn't insert it properly, or they have crappy aftermarket mags, or the op-rod guide is worn

[gunnysmith 4]

There sre very few shooters that can out shoot the S-308.

It' good choice.

BTW I own 2 M1A's, neither is for sale though.

Edited October 2, 2007 by gunnysmith

[Montana3gunner 13]

There sre very few shooters that can out shoot the S-308.

It' good choice.

BTW I own 2 M1A's, neither is for sale though.

 

There was another thread on this:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=17458

 

I posted some pics and my load data - 45 Gr Varget, Hornady interlock SP, CCI primers. The pics show a 1.75" 8 shot group. Since then, I've shot a 1.25" 5 shot group with three in the same hole. I think the loads would be better with Fed primers. That load would (If appropriately placed) be a great load for deer or elk.

 

The stock trigger is abysmal. Just installing a good trigger will improve your groups/accuracy. Bad news is that you can't put a new trigger in a S-308 without converting to a pistola grip.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i dont own a M14 (wish i did) but i have read ppl's reports from gun club owners that see ppl bring in a new M14 to the range and the clips keep falling out of the weapon(they see this alot), they say you must buy a mil-spec reciever to fix the problem.dont know if its true but i have read it alot.

Just a point of order, cryptkeeper...

 

M1 Garands use clips, M14s use magazines. I wasn't sure at first which rifle you were talking about.

my bad i ment mags it was a new M14's they where talking about they stressed you must get a mil-spec reciever. i had read this about 2yrs ago in some forms when i was looking into getting a 308 that what made me choose the saiga-308 and i have no regrets

 

 

i just wish some1 would come out with a trigger that i dont have to do any major mod. to the weapon

Edited October 3, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[fossten 1]

i dont own a M14 (wish i did) but i have read ppl's reports from gun club owners that see ppl bring in a new M14 to the range and the clips keep falling out of the weapon(they see this alot), they say you must buy a mil-spec reciever to fix the problem.dont know if its true but i have read it alot.

Just a point of order, cryptkeeper...

 

M1 Garands use clips, M14s use magazines. I wasn't sure at first which rifle you were talking about.

my bad i ment mags it was a new M14's they where talking about they stressed you must get a mil-spec reciever. i had read this about 2yrs ago in some forms when i was looking into getting a 308 that what made me choose the saiga-308 and i have no regrets

 

 

i just wish some1 would come out with a trigger that i dont have to do any major mod. to the weapon

Which trigger are you using?

[Unknown Poster 5]

I'm getting 1 1/2" groups off the bench @ 100yds using south african 308 ball ammo too in my 16" barreld 308 saiga. I'm sure it will shoot better with reloads for sure. I just reloaded 6k of 308 FMJ using the 147gr military bullets with IMR4895 powder with the CCI 34 primers. All 6,000rds are exactly the same, I took my time in loading them. I haven't shot them yet and i can't wait to poke some results from my hard labor in the paper. With the increase in accuracy it will be all worth doing.

 

I'm using LEE 308 dies that cost me $9 a few years back. I haven't had one problem with them or any LEE product yet, they fit my RCBS Rockchucker press perfect. The reloading process can be speeded up by using there powder dipper cups they cost about $7 for the set. I use the cup thats a little less powder then just trickle it up to the exact load and its much faster that way too. You can't beat the people at LEE for having great ideas to speed things up.

 

I really wanted an M1a but at that high price plus there having quality problems pushed me towards the russian izhmash saiga when they first were offered here. Now i own a few in 308 and in 223 there the hottest buy on the planet ever since the first chinese norinco sks hit our shores. I have other rifles in 308 that don't come close in performance of the saiga too that cost more than double too.

 

Try some moly on the rails, gas tube and on the trigger sear. Using it on the trigger sear it smooths out the trigger like an expensive trigger job and your groups will tighten up even more.

 

Now if you have to have an M1a I'd look for a used Poly Tech M14s ($800) or break your piggy bank and go for a Fulton Armory M14 ($2,500) these two seem to be the top shelf m14's.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Unknown Poster

[Cryptkeeper 0]

I dont think i will be buying a M14 . 2 friends of mine just got back from a week long of the appleseed training corse( for all who dont know its a training corse that teaches ppl how to shoot) every1 there other than 1 person who had a m1 grand and my 2 friends who had AR15's. every1 else had M14's and both of them said that ALL the M14 had major problems not all the same problems they told me what problems they had they all was diff and really cant remmber well enough to say what the problems where . sevral ppl ended up not finishing the corse with there M14 and had to use my friends 10/22 in order to qualify and finish the corse. 1 of my friends has a M14 for sale now LOL he seen how bad qualty the M14 are now days and will not have 1. before buying an M14 i would look up a few forms ive seen alot of stories like this. the ones who have a good M14 probly where the smart ones and got a mil-spec reciever which is a must. which is BS if you pay $1500.00 ++ the thing better work and hold up. i think i would rather have a weapon not quit so accurate but will shoot than a accurate piece of junk u have to fix every time u fire it.i did want a M14 until my friends came back this week, now no thank you ill send my money some where else springfield needs to get their act together.maybe ill look at an AR10 hmmm just not anything made by springfield, no thanx, LoL

[G O B 3,516]

Anything that fails to fire also fails accuracy.

3 just outside the 10 ring is a lot more accurate than 2 in the 10 ring and one stuck in the rifle.

When you average in the 100yds. between the 2 in the 10 ring and the one stuck in the gun it makes a really shitty group!

[Montana3gunner 13]

Anything that fails to fire also fails accuracy.

3 just outside the 10 ring is a lot more accurate than 2 in the 10 ring and one stuck in the rifle.

When you average in the 100yds. between the 2 in the 10 ring and the one stuck in the gun it makes a really shitty group!

 

I've got a new load, going to try it this weekend - will try to post results if they are better than my other results.

 

I love my Saiga, haven't shot it much, but it's super dependable and far more accurate than people think it's going to be.

 

Having said that, I could use some cash and I'm considering putting it up for sale. It is a fully tricked out Saiga, I'm worried that I'll lose my butt on it.

[fossten 1]

I'm getting 1 1/2" groups off the bench @ 100yds using south african 308 ball ammo too in my 16" barreld 308 saiga. I'm sure it will shoot better with reloads for sure. I just reloaded 6k of 308 FMJ using the 147gr military bullets with IMR4895 powder with the CCI 34 primers. All 6,000rds are exactly the same, I took my time in loading them. I haven't shot them yet and i can't wait to poke some results from my hard labor in the paper. With the increase in accuracy it will be all worth doing.

 

I'm using LEE 308 dies that cost me $9 a few years back. I haven't had one problem with them or any LEE product yet, they fit my RCBS Rockchucker press perfect. The reloading process can be speeded up by using there powder dipper cups they cost about $7 for the set. I use the cup thats a little less powder then just trickle it up to the exact load and its much faster that way too. You can't beat the people at LEE for having great ideas to speed things up.

 

I really wanted an M1a but at that high price plus there having quality problems pushed me towards the russian izhmash saiga when they first were offered here. Now i own a few in 308 and in 223 there the hottest buy on the planet ever since the first chinese norinco sks hit our shores. I have other rifles in 308 that don't come close in performance of the saiga too that cost more than double too.

 

Try some moly on the rails, gas tube and on the trigger sear. Using it on the trigger sear it smooths out the trigger like an expensive trigger job and your groups will tighten up even more.

 

Now if you have to have an M1a I'd look for a used Poly Tech M14s ($800) or break your piggy bank and go for a Fulton Armory M14 ($2,500) these two seem to be the top shelf m14's.

UP, what is the best source for the 147 grain bullets?

[SOPMOD 254]

New in box M1A will run about 1300. With handloads, my S308 and my M1A, will do 1" at 100yds. Amazingly, the same load for each.

 

 

I have to admit that I originally doubted you but didn't say anything and decided to try it for myself and guess what?

 

 

 

You were right!

 

What is your favorite load for the 1 in 12.63 twist Saiga barrel?

Edited April 9, 2008 by SOPMOD