Shot against my towns finest, AR vs Saiga

[DLT 1,646]

I had a chance to shoot against a local peace officer yesterday at the range. He was using a stag arms AR-15. We both shot from 30 yards standing. He shot first and shot up the entire target. His shots were inside a 2 x 2 foot area. I then pulled out my Saiga 223. He immediately asked me what it was, I explained to him that is was sort of an AK. He then commented on how AK's aren't accurate. I smiled. So I fired my ten shots. All inside a 2 x 2 inch area. He was astonished. He kept asking how that was possible with an AK. I told him I didn't know, but that mine had always shot like that. That poor guy was baffled. The look on his face was priceless.

[Bvamp 604]

there are many MANY times I wish I had a camera when introducing people to my saiga 12 for the first time.

 

it sounds like your rifle produced a similar result that my shotgun produces all the time.

 

you shoulda told the guy "yeh, did you know they make them in 12 gauge too?" and took a picture of THAT perplexed, wide eyed look he woulda given you.

[DLT 1,646]

I did tell him about the Saiga 12. Before I could finish my sentence he brought up the Benelli M4 and how fast it can shoot. I informed him that the Saiga 12 is faster and can be had for $1000.00 cheaper.

[Bvamp 604]

everybody's an expert, right?

 

I have taken to using the term "mr or mrs knowledge" with these types....

[dayanx 1]

the reputation as a peasant gun again. Ever see those 3rd worlders fight?

Edited October 30, 2007 by dayan inikhaton

[DLT 1,646]

Man, and you wonder why they can't hit a thing.

[topmaul 42]

If they had M-16s they would be on target

[loki0629 55]

I've used those same exact pictures in a powerpoint presentation on marskmanship. Basically, it went something like "These are a few examples of an incorrect standing position."

 

High marks on presentation, low ones for effects on target.

[Bvamp 604]

here is a short video of some of the fighting in libera, the country where these photos came from.

 

I think they are a bunch of fools for the way they fight and their beliefs on bravery, but I can re-explain it, if you all like, as I really am not in the mood to go dig up my previous post on the subject. its actually kind of interesting, really, if you ask me (which noone has)

liberiaf.mov

[Paladin 37]

Well, the good news if we ever have to defend our borders against them it will be a short fight.

[muttman2 0]

If they had M-16s they would be on target

 

 

muttman2

[quinci956 1]

I did tell him about the Saiga 12. Before I could finish my sentence he brought up the Benelli M4 and how fast it can shoot. I informed him that the Saiga 12 is faster and can be had for $1000.00 cheaper.

I was at the range last week shooting my S12 when another guy with a Benelli threw up a challenge. The course was an eight round course with multiple targets and a transition to the handgun on the 9th target.

I ran my time in 47 seconds with a perfect score. Mr. Benelli started the course and on the second shot his front sight fell off. The fourth shot caused his rear sight to fall off. He missed two targets after that and his time sucked. needless to say he was a little embarrassed. I expected mor from a Benelli. The front sight looked like it was soldered on and the rear sight was srewed on. The two rear sight screws broke off in the receiver. He keeps his benelli in a hard padded case and cleans it regularly. I keep my Saiga loose in my trunk and have only cleaned it once.

You get what you pay for???? lol

[dayanx 1]

you should market for Izhmash XD

 

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php...hlight=liberian

 

I'm posting the link I got the pics from. there's a TON more and what's more they all have great captions too.

and one of the pics was so funny I turned it into an inspirational poster:

 

[Twinsen 86]

I did tell him about the Saiga 12. Before I could finish my sentence he brought up the Benelli M4 and how fast it can shoot. I informed him that the Saiga 12 is faster and can be had for $1000.00 cheaper.

I was at the range last week shooting my S12 when another guy with a Benelli threw up a challenge. The course was an eight round course with multiple targets and a transition to the handgun on the 9th target.

I ran my time in 47 seconds with a perfect score. Mr. Benelli started the course and on the second shot his front sight fell off. The fourth shot caused his rear sight to fall off. He missed two targets after that and his time sucked. needless to say he was a little embarrassed. I expected mor from a Benelli. The front sight looked like it was soldered on and the rear sight was srewed on. The two rear sight screws broke off in the receiver. He keeps his benelli in a hard padded case and cleans it regularly. I keep my Saiga loose in my trunk and have only cleaned it once.

You get what you pay for???? lol

Hahaha, I give no respect to Benelli for anything but their Supernova pump. This is because of the cost, and nothing else. 12 gauge shotguns should not be expensive. It's that simple. In my mind, they'd have to do something AMAZING to be worth so much. I also think that 1100's and 1187's are total trash and should go for like $20 though, so I'm not the guy to ask on shotguns. Because everytime, my answer is going to be Saiga or Supernova. I don't ever want a gun that ONLY works with certain shells and different barrels when a stupid adjustable gas system costs a freaking dollar to draw up and build.

 

I've made out in buying the most kickass semi and pump out there. I just need to get a conversion on them Saigas.

 

As for the M16 and AK debate on accuracy, if you're firing offhand, you'll never notice the difference anyway. A guy that is good with either one will beat anybody that sucks with theirs. Anybody here with any offhand ability will be able to outshoot me at any distance.

[DLT 1,646]

Finally saw the video. Those Liberians have really made a mess of their country.

[loki0629 55]

one of the pics was so funny I turned it into an inspirational poster:

 

That is frigging hilarious!!

[Bvamp 604]

I have a copy of the liberia thread from "some other forum" that was so popular and then had to be removed, if anyone wants it. somewheres, that is. Ill dig it up if there is enough interest.

[Aloxite 1]

Lost one thread till I remembered the title was Monrovian.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2007 by Aloxite

[RedFalconBill 0]

I had a chance to shoot against a local peace officer yesterday at the range. He was using a stag arms AR-15. We both shot from 30 yards standing. He shot first and shot up the entire target. His shots were inside a 2 x 2 foot area. I then pulled out my Saiga 223. He immediately asked me what it was, I explained to him that is was sort of an AK. He then commented on how AK's aren't accurate. I smiled. So I fired my ten shots. All inside a 2 x 2 inch area. He was astonished. He kept asking how that was possible with an AK. I told him I didn't know, but that mine had always shot like that. That poor guy was baffled. The look on his face was priceless.

 

I have fired three Stag Arms Model 2's and found them to be very good AR's.

 

That said, the .223 Saiga's tend to be more accurate then people think, when fed good ammo (ie, not Russian made Wolf steel case ammo)

 

My 16.3" Saiga, for $295.00 (incl. tax), shoots almost as well as my $820.00 16" barrel mid-length AR I built last year. (Don't tell my wife!!)

 

My AR has a better trigger, but once I am done converting my Saiga, I do not think the difference will be that great.

 

My thinking is that if you gave him your Saiga, he would still suck a** at shooting. It is the singer, not the song.

 

Congrats on making that officer second guess himself. Maybe this will spur him on to actually get some quality instruction.

 

Then again, maybe not.

[DLT 1,646]

I'm sure he would stink. I was watching him when he was shooting and I know I saw him closing his eyes between shots, jerking and anticipating the recoil.

[loki0629 55]

I'm sure he would stink. I was watching him when he was shooting and I know I saw him closing his eyes between shots, jerking and anticipating the recoil.

Recoil? From an AR? In .223? With the buffer in the stock?

 

I'd hate to see how he'd do with the 16" .308 with the skeleton stock wearing a t-shirt.

 

Seriously if someone is flinching on an AR they need to do some remedial training. Especially if they are law enforcement.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I'm sure he would stink. I was watching him when he was shooting and I know I saw him closing his eyes between shots, jerking and anticipating the recoil.

Recoil? From an AR? In .223? With the buffer in the stock?

 

I'd hate to see how he'd do with the 16" .308 with the skeleton stock wearing a t-shirt.

 

Seriously if someone is flinching on an AR they need to do some remedial training. Especially if they are law enforcement.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. Also, when someone asks for a recoil buffer for the 7.62 or .223 saigas, i laugh. I don't even think my Mosin Nagant kicks hard, and that's a hell of a lot more power than a .223

 

I <3 Russian Weapons!

[quinci956 1]

I had a chance to shoot against a local peace officer yesterday at the range. He was using a stag arms AR-15. We both shot from 30 yards standing. He shot first and shot up the entire target. His shots were inside a 2 x 2 foot area. I then pulled out my Saiga 223. He immediately asked me what it was, I explained to him that is was sort of an AK. He then commented on how AK's aren't accurate. I smiled. So I fired my ten shots. All inside a 2 x 2 inch area. He was astonished. He kept asking how that was possible with an AK. I told him I didn't know, but that mine had always shot like that. That poor guy was baffled. The look on his face was priceless.

 

I have fired three Stag Arms Model 2's and found them to be very good AR's.

 

That said, the .223 Saiga's tend to be more accurate then people think, when fed good ammo (ie, not Russian made Wolf steel case ammo)

 

My 16.3" Saiga, for $295.00 (incl. tax), shoots almost as well as my $820.00 16" barrel mid-length AR I built last year. (Don't tell my wife!!)

 

My AR has a better trigger, but once I am done converting my Saiga, I do not think the difference will be that great.

 

My thinking is that if you gave him your Saiga, he would still suck a** at shooting. It is the singer, not the song.

 

Congrats on making that officer second guess himself. Maybe this will spur him on to actually get some quality instruction.

 

Then again, maybe not.

I posted this, http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=16826&hl= several months ago. Both rifles were mine and I went in fully expecting the AR platform to out shoot my converted Saiga .223. I had the same results described above. They can say what they want about AK accuracy but in .223 I really don't think it is that different in a moving close (50 yards and closer) tactical situation. AK's kick ass!!!

Edited November 6, 2007 by madmilo

[DLT 1,646]

I also own both and AR and my Saiga and greatly prefer my Saiga for shots under 100 yards. I have never had a single failure with my Saiga, but my AR however has given me headaches. I find my Saiga far superior to my AR in every aspect. I am slowly converting it into my SHTF and home defense rifle.

[RedFalconBill 0]

I also own both and AR and my Saiga and greatly prefer my Saiga for shots under 100 yards. I have never had a single failure with my Saiga, but my AR however has given me headaches. I find my Saiga far superior to my AR in every aspect. I am slowly converting it into my SHTF and home defense rifle.

 

What issues are you having with your AR? It might be off topic for this thread, but if I can help you get your AR up on running, I would like to.

 

For a SHTF rifle, I like my Mid-Length AR I built last year, but to be honest I have fired thousands of rounds through M-16A1's, A2's M-4's and AR's over the last 22 years, so I have a bit more experience with it. I still find magazine changes slow and the safety is awkward to use with all AK's. You can buy a modified safety and add a Mag Latch Extension from PrimaryWeapons, but they still have bad ergonomics.

[ck43001 12]

A two foot group at 30 yards? That's one pathetic "local peace officer."

[csspecs 1,987]

I would not want to be in front of him, but at anyone who may have to shoot to save their life should be able to do better. A two foot pattern at 30 yards is what 72 MOA?

 

I have a bad habit with ARs, I leave my finger on the mag release and if I am spooked by something I flinch and drop the magazine.

Edited November 7, 2007 by csspecs

[RedFalconBill 0]

I would not want to be in front of him, but at anyone who may have to shoot to save their life should be able to do better. A two foot pattern at 30 yards is what 72 MOA?

 

I have a bad habit with ARs, I leave my finger on the mag release and if I am spooked by something I flinch and drop the magazine.

 

When you drill with your AR ensure that the upper part of your trigger finger is touching the bottom magazine fence as a 'memory' point for your trigger finger. Start with no magazine, then an empty magazine before finally going hot with live ammo.

 

Talk-Crawl-Walk-Run-Sprint.