Navy87Guy 1 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 For those who aren't members of Gabe Suarez's WarriorTalk forum, there's a new thread over there on the S12: http://www.warriortalk.com./showthread.php?t=31455 After a month of testing, Gabe has declared the S12 "the only purpose-desinged fighting shotgun available today". He says that given the choice between a Benelli and the S12, he would pick the S12 "hands down". He also claims to have figured out how to quickly load both 5- and 10-rd mags on a closed bolt almost as quickly as an AK reload (must be nice to have a lot of gunfighting time on your hands!) He had previously indicated that he intended to work the S12 into his courses of instruction -- so I guess this probably seals it! As those who are familiar with WarriorTalk know, Gabe's opinion carries a lot of weight with a particular crowd of serious-minded fighters/warriors. So you can probably expect to see a lot more people out there competing with you to get their hands on the incoming shipment of S12's! Anyway, it's just nice to see the S12 discussed in detail on another forum -- it just proves that we're right!! Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 I lurk over at Warrior Talk, I can assure you these guys are very serious about weapons and training (unlike some of the other "enthusiast" forum people who seem to visiting us lately) FWIW I am planning to take a course next year from them like Navy87Guy did. If you read up on them they do some hard core training. For the lazy, here is the post: "I have a staff member's personal Saiga in house at present. I have my own en route to me, but in the meantime.... Observations. This is a far better shotgun than any other I have worked with. If I had a choice between a Saiga and a Benelli, I'd go Saiga hands down. It is the only purpose-desinged fighting shotgun available today. Everything else...even the Benelli (that is what the engineers at Benelli Italy told me) is a "sporting" weapon modified for police/military use. Think of a shotgun with all the characteristics of a shotgun, yet with the same exact manual of arms as your Kalashnikov!! As it comes, it needs to have a few parts replaced. The addition of a Tapco G-2 Trigger Pack and the relocation of the trigger guard to add a pistol grip are essential. As is the subsequent change to a regular AK butt stock. Some come with 22 inch barrels, so I'd recommend chopping these to barely legal 18.5" long. When I get my personal weapon, I will examine turning it into a short barreled shotgun. The main advantage of the Saiga is the magazine feed. No longer do you have to fumble with single rounds of buckshot. You can load a full magazine. In perusing the various Saiga discussions I have heard from some that the Saiga magazine can only be loaded while the bolt is held back. My initial impression of the Saiga was the same. However, after loading and reloading a Saiga 12 with a closed bolt and FULL 5 round magazines, several hundred times, I can tell you that this is absolutely false. You can load the Saiga the same way you load your AK. So the shoot-one-load one process that so complicates the manual of arms of the shotgun is a moot point for the Saiga. Instead, you shoot it. When it stops, you go to pistol if inside CQB range, or drop behind cover and reload it like your AK if outside of pistol range. Caveman simple. While the SI Jury is still out on the select slug issue, it is noteworthy that conducting this maneuver with a Saiga is as simple as executing the speed load which some guys teach for the AK. While I am not a fan of IPSC-based speed reloads that involve needlessly dropping magazines, one could argue that if the need to change ammo is so pressing, the dropping of a magazine of five rounds is not such a big deal. That being the case, you can "speed transition" to slugs on the Saiga in 5 steps. Simply exchange the buckshot filled magazine with a slug filled magazine. 1). Grab Slug Magazine 2). Trip Magazine catch - Dropping On Board Buckshot Magazine 3). Insert & Latch Slug Magazine 4). Run The Bolt 5). Fire Slug (The 870 takes about 7-8 steps...the Benelli takes 5 steps). No need to leave "dead spaces in the tube or anything of the sort. The Saiga will be best equipped with a folding stock of one sort or another. I have seen Saiga 12s equipped with AK-100 stocks in Europe and these are very cool. i will have to talk Jim Fuller into doing the extra work on my Saiga . If not possible, an ACE folder will work fine. Why the folder...because I like to carry my weapons with me...in my car...in my rucksack. A folder makes it far easier to do this than lugging a rifle case around with you. If you do not feel a need for this, you can certainly add a simple AK stock (PLEASE...do not M4-ize your Saiga). On recoil...I will not lie to you and tell you there is no recoil. Any instructor that says that is not being honest. Certainly, if you weigh in at 300 pounds, and are shooting "low recoil" stuff you can shoot the frigging shotgun from a weaver stance if you want. The 12 gauge shotgun is not for frail folks. However, the Saiga feels to me much like my old 11-87 which was one of the softest shooting shotguns of all. For those who want a lighter feel, they also make a 20 gauge which at the ranges shotguns will most likely be used, will do just fine. Bottom line...you will be hearing more from me with regards to the Saiga shotgun. If you are in the market for a semi-auto shotgun, take a long hard serious look at the Saiga before you drop the same money (or far more money) on a Benelli, or 11-87, or any other converted sports gun." __________________ Gabe Suarez Suarez International USA, Inc. One Source Tactical info@suarezinternational.com Office 928-776-4492 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) I am an enthusiast …. I am also a 20 year army service veteran, a 20 year career police officer, and I "enthusiastically" enjoy the sport, hobby and business applications of firearms. I have noted however that some people are not limited to just shooting off there weapons, some like to shoot off there mouths as well, so before these "experts" decide to pass judgment on other fellow members of the 2nd amendment support team (and probably other subjects they know absolutely nothing about) they should please take a moment to consider there words and who they might be offending with there elitist, high handed, snobbery. As to the Suarez evaluation of the Saiga Gabe is of course dead on, the tactical, practical and competition use of the AK weapon frame in the 12ga. caliber simply can't be argued, as an entry weapon I would have much preferred the S-12 to my 870 police or military issue (kids today have it so easy J), and as I said in my review of the weapon it seems to be the up and coming tool of choice with many new and veteran shotgun competitors, and there is no question as to it's ability to put "tasty" animals on the table. Paladin is quite correct in one respect however….if you ever thought you might want one these fine weapons get it now …just like Harley's the "wanna be weekend warriors" are getting there fat wallets out IMHO. Edited December 4, 2007 by gmorgan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Man, why couldn't he wait until after xmas to do this review? Nuts. BTW welcome to the forum gmorgan. I really hope you're not starting off by implying that Navy87Guy or Paladin are elitist gun snobs. We have a lot of cynical, crusty SOB's but very few gun snobs. I do consider myself a beer and single malt scotch snob. Life's too short to drink swill. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azkamidaka 26 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 I do consider myself a beer and single malt scotch snob. Life's too short to drink swill. Amen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) Man, why couldn't he wait until after xmas to do this review? Nuts. BTW welcome to the forum gmorgan. I really hope you're not starting off by implying that Navy87Guy or Paladin are elitist gun snobs. We have a lot of cynical, crusty SOB's but very few gun snobs. I do consider myself a beer and single malt scotch snob. Life's too short to drink swill. Well said Gunny Negative I'm not picking a fight with anyone, particularly Navy Guy, he put out some good info and I for one appreciate it….but after over 30 years of service and experience I don't plan on taking a lot of crap either, if I got a thing to say I'll say it and if someone don't like what I said or the way I said it then tell me right up front, I appreciate ever ones opinions even the one's that disagree with mine (that's how dialog is started and we learn) but I have no time and even less patience for elitist games. Case in point My post was just trying to bring a little information and fun "I guess the best way to begin is to explain that I am not a Saiga expert, I am your average firearms enthusiast that likes things that go Click! BANG !!! I do however have over 20 years of law enforcement experience and 20 years of service with the army as an infantry soldier, so I like to think I know my way around most modern firearms and the tactical / practical employment of said weapons, also the other "evaluators" I invited to torture this poor Saiga have at least as much time and training as I do, so that having been said …on with the show" His post was in my opinion an immature attempt to put a "new guy" in his place I lurk over at Warrior Talk, I can assure you these guys are very serious about weapons and training (unlike some of the other "enthusiast" forum people who seem to visiting us lately) FWIW I am planning to take a course next year from them like Navy87Guy did. If you read up on them they do some hard core training. So if someone wants an intelligent discussion great, but if you want to start said discussion off with an immature insult then great!! I can play that way to. Edited December 4, 2007 by gmorgan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) Im not a military guy, but I have shot and worked on lots and lots and lots of guns, and have used them in a lot of different conditions. The saiga12 is the BEST gun there is as far as Im concerned, for its role. Ive been saying this for years. Someone should share this picture with the nice feller' over yonder and tell him that several hundred of them were fired in zero F temperatures without flaw of function - including original picture to allow "zooming" in close. this test I did back afew years left me speechless, and finalized what I already knew. My saiga12 is the only gun in my house that is loaded and ready to go at all times...... edit: I demand to see anyone post a flawless result with 200 shells like these out of ANY shotgun without hand feeding them.....and you dont even have to freeze them first, or fire another 8,000 rounds down the gun afterwards.... Edited December 4, 2007 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azkamidaka 26 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Good Form Good Form. Like the man said, welcome to the party. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Navy87Guy 1 Posted December 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Here Here! Welcome aboard! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Well, considering that I have read a first hand account of german stuka pilots fishing on the eastern front during ww2 with 100kg bombs, duck hunting with a 155mm howitzer wouldnt surprise me very much! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Another fine example of folks in violent agreement. 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) Another fine example of folks in violent agreement. 1911 uhh...its the saiga-12 forum....we don't exactly drink cool-aid and sing kumbahya around this joint To gmorgan.... welcome to the board Edited December 4, 2007 by scoutjoe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Does groundhog hunting with Tannerite count? My FAVORITE way to hunt! Works on feral cats too if you add a pan of food. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 Another fine example of folks in violent agreement. 1911 uhh...its the saiga-12 forum....we don't exactly drink cool-aid and sing kumbahya around this joint To gmorgan.... welcome to the board It's a good thing Scoutjoe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 This is the place for violent, IN YOU'R FACE agreement! Saiga's bring out animal in people! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wasatch 0 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 This is the place for violent, IN YOU'R FACE agreement! Saiga's bring out animal in people! There certainly is a visceral quality to a Saiga. Ya gotta love it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WS6_Keith 0 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) Gabe's liked them for a while now. Kinda figured this was a no brainer as hard core AK as he was. Edited December 5, 2007 by WS6_Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 Well, could one of you guys be so kind as to share with Gabe that picture I posted with my explanation, so that I dont have to make yet another login to another site that I wont attend? Im sure his eyes will bleed when he sees that someone ran them down a s12 without a hitch....and those were some of the better ones out of the lot, no less Even he would think "holy cow", I think, before screaming bloody murder that someone would actually run those pieces of shit down ANY gun. So far, I think I am the only one out there thats done it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 bvamp, Just out of curiosity while you were loading those POS's into the mag was there a little voice inside your head saying "I wonder if this is a good idea?" Because when I saw your pic of the expended hulls I thought to myself "I wonder if that was a good idea?" On the other hand, thanks for doing the field research! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) Yes, Gunny, it was in my head. I have also used fully loaded shotshells as 22 targets for most of my shooting days, and knew that it wouldnt be THAT deadly if they detonated on me. I DID fire the gun the first mag or two or three away from my face and body. I have never seen another shotgun run shells like these before. I did a write up on it, and reference it once in a while in topics like this one. edit: heres my original post with more information in it from a couple years ago http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=3522 there was also a little voice inside my head saying "go ahead ben, I dare you to feed me those shells, because im hungry". I was suspicious to not be doubtful of the gun, and my suspicions were correct. Edited December 5, 2007 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Navy87Guy 1 Posted December 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 Well, could one of you guys be so kind as to share with Gabe that picture I posted with my explanation, so that I dont have to make yet another login to another site that I wont attend? Im sure his eyes will bleed when he sees that someone ran them down a s12 without a hitch....and those were some of the better ones out of the lot, no less Even he would think "holy cow", I think, before screaming bloody murder that someone would actually run those pieces of shit down ANY gun. So far, I think I am the only one out there thats done it. I'm not quite sure what tone you're trying to put on this. Is it just a demo of how reliable the S12 is? Or are you trying to "counter" something? I'm confused by the part about "I'm sure his eyes will bleed..." I'd be happy to post the pic and background, but I want to make sure I understand the message you're trying to get across. Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) no, im trying to back up what he already knows, with the final test I did to my s12 that puts it in the category of "the gun I wont ever sell". for instance the gun in my avatar? sold that one. my s12 in the corner? not a chance. nothing to read into there. I am SURE those guys wouldnt do what I did, jsut because of what gunny said. not a very safe of smart thing to do, but, well, SOMEBODY had to do it. I still cant believe it fed fired and ejected them all flawlessly, AFTER being frozen, to boot. Edited December 6, 2007 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Navy87Guy 1 Posted December 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) Got it! Posting your testimonial now! And it will be going in the new Saiga Shotgun section Gabe created on his forum (all the other shotguns are lumped together in a "Shotgun Gunfighting" section.) Jim Edited December 6, 2007 by Navy87Guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) thanks, let me know if gabe thinks im completely stupid for doing it! Im sure he will! but now we all know the gun feeds anything.....like i said, anyone is welcome to challenge my s12 for feeding that stuff. i seriously doubt any other shotgun made can do it. none of the ones I tried it with could. rem870 moss500 win12 feel free to go to the original post link and copy it over with the full quality image. Thats a good forum over there, and I dont mind sharing with them. I just dont have time to be a member at other gun forums, really, at this point, and they all over there I am SURE dont want to hear that a large snowman or decent snowbank is fairly bullet proof either, which I found out totally by accident. Edited December 6, 2007 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 thanks, let me know if gabe thinks im completely stupid for doing it! Im sure he will! but now we all know the gun feeds anything.....like i said, anyone is welcome to challenge my s12 for feeding that stuff. i seriously doubt any other shotgun made can do it. none of the ones I tried it with could. rem870 moss500 win12 feel free to go to the original post link and copy it over with the full quality image. Thats a good forum over there, and I dont mind sharing with them. I just dont have time to be a member at other gun forums, really, at this point, and they all over there I am SURE dont want to hear that a large snowman or decent snowbank is fairly bullet proof either, which I found out totally by accident. "You been pluggin FROSTY ?!?!?! Santa aint gonna like this Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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