the questions we all want answered

[Goodman 0]

Here are the questions I've seen asked but not answered!

 

1) Are we limited to 5 round mags? What's the story on the reported 7, 8, and 10 round mags? Can non-law enforcement citizens own them?

 

2) I want to use slugs. Can I use my fixed choke shotgun safely with slugs? Who says so?

 

Please comment on sabot rounds, rifled slugs and non-rifled slugs, especially how well these rounds could be expected to work with a Saiga smooth bore barrel. Also please comment on non-choked barrels with the same mentioned rounds.

 

3) If slugs are safe with chokes can they also be used with screw-on chokes?

 

4) What is the 'Paradox' adapter? Is it a normal cylindrical adapter? Does it help projectile stability in some way? Why the special name?

 

5) I want some of the items listed in the e-store section of this site. Do you have any idea when they will be available?

 

I've got a Saiga 12 on order and plan on posting a detailed range report. If you have ideas on how to make this report better/more useful for everyone please contact me. Thanks!

 

 

I realize this is a lot to ask and could merit an entire separate section for this forum. Again, if I can help find answers please let me know. If you've only got a few answers PLEASE post them as you are able. THANKS!!

 

 

G

[Makc 64]

[Goodman 0]

Excellent! Thank you so much Mackc! I guess the only other question I might have right away is who has the Paradox for sale? It sounds like it would be interesting to toy around with. Maybe you have a link to the Russian forum to which you you refer (if it's in english!)?

 

My S-12 19" came in and I'm VERY pleased! It will be a couple of days until I get it cleaned (GREASY!) and out to the range but I'll post when I do.

Also, it's probably no secret but:

My shotgun is one made in 2000 and DOES have the bolt catch. The book that EAA sent in the packaging reads: "The Bolt Catch was added to some models of Saiga guns so as to allow easier loading of the firearm." There's no indication of where or when the catch was added, though the qualty control sheet was signed Jan 2001. Also, I just noticed the 'manual' with this statement has a copyright of 3/2000. ???

Edited February 24, 2003 by Goodman

[Makc 64]

The forum was at www.saiga.ru - but i think it is ALL in Russian

 

I own 2 of the Saiga-12 shotguns - the one that was made in 2000 (19") had a bolt catch in it (the ugly looking one, so I replaced it with a custom) and the one that was made in 2001 (22") did not have the bolt catch!!! Go figure... I guess the armory felt that it was too much trouble and decided to leave it out... (so I just added it myself!)

 

Good luck with your gun!

[jsr5 0]

Somwhere here I saw a collection of 12 ga shells including a Aguila mini shell by chance do those work in the S12?

[Bvamp 604]

no they do not consistantly work. they are too short, and the shortness of the shell itself causes the shell to feed at the wrong angle, or jam. if they even will eject in the first place.

[ironhead7544 35]

The sabot rounds are for rifled barrels. You could probably use them in the S12 but not with any chokes. From what I heard they will probably keyhole from an open choke. The S12 is very accurate with the standard rifled slug. Try it and you will find that you dont need the paradox choke. Dixie Slugs makes a good slug for smoothbores but I havent tried them yet. It would be interesting to see a detailed report on slug use with the S12 and a scope. The Reminton Slugger slugs seem to be the most accurate slug in my S12.

[Steph 5]

I do not know of any federal regulation that limits the capacity of firearm magazines. Many states have regulations that do; and some munincipalities do. Here in WI, you can have any size magazine. The only way to know for sure is to search through the state and local laws where you live. You can do it on the internet, but in my experience it is really hard to navigate the websites to find specific laws. Your local library would have copies of your state statutes and local codes. Its also a good idea to know your state laws regarding self defense. You'll also learn a lot of strange legal info while you are at it. For instance, in Wisconsin;

 

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of a Class I felony: Commits an act of sexual gratification involving his or her sex organ and the sex organ, mouth or anus of an animal. OR- Commits an act of sexual gratification involving his or her sex organ, mouth or anus and the sex organ of an animal.

 

Damn! Once again an oppressive, overbearing government has curtailed my rights!

[Wombat 0]

[dinzag 31]

Edited February 20, 2006 by dinzag

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I believe the point Makc was making is it is not legal to use a mag with a capacity of more than 5 rds in the stock configuration of the Saiga shotguns or rifles. Unless you live in NY, Cali, or one of the other way F'd up states you can use a mag of ANY capacity in your Saiga if it is converted into a "US made" firearm by meeting the correct parts count required in the compliance rules.

As far as fucking animals goes, that's what the dumbasses that made these stupid rules do in their spare time.

 

I have shot rifled and non rifled slugs thru my 22" full choked S-12 and my 19" threaded with screw on full choke. As long as you are using slugs like these that can compress and squeeze thru the full choke you will be ok. You will probably see better accuracy with slugs thru the 19" with IC, Cyl, or no choke at all. You can also shoot saboted slugs but don't try to shoot those thru a full choke. The hollow based rifled slugs like Remington Sluggers are soft and will compress but not the sabots. At least that's what I have heard.

I have not seen much difference in accuracy using my paradox choke with these "foster" slugs. I saw somehwere that the paradox was better with sabots. I haven't tried that yet.

I bought my paradox from Rusmilitary and it was delivered in 6 days.

 

I would also like to see some extensive slug testing with scope or red dot. Different types of slugs thru different chokes and without. If possible a comparison between the 19" and 22" barrels with foster slugs would also be cool.

[Steph 5]

Oh, yeah, I didn't notice that this thread started before the AWB sunset. (trained observer that I am...) Of course, if it is an evil import mag rather than a red-blooded patriotic mag molded on US soil, there could be 922 compliance issues depending on your configuration. Thank god we have wise wealthy attorneys to look out for our well being, and keep us from foreign parts and having carnal knowledge with chickens.

[jsr5 0]

Anyone tinkered with re-calibrating a standard ladder type sight to work with slugs in an s12? maybe even with a Ghost ring insted of regular notch? That would I think increase the "combat effectivnes" of the s12 by giving a better chance to hit with slugs at extended ranges.

 

Boy I can't wait till the end of the month so I have my own to tinker with and by then after all my questions you all will probably be glad I got my own too.

[Ronswin 26]

Anyone tinkered with re-calibrating a standard ladder type sight to work with slugs in an s12? maybe even with a Ghost ring insted of regular notch? That would I think increase the "combat effectivnes" of the s12 by giving a better chance to hit with slugs at extended ranges.

 

Boy I can't wait till the end of the month so I have my own to tinker with and by then after all my questions you all will probably be glad I got my own too.

 

Jsr5,

I attached the russian AK-type front sight on the muzzle end of my Saiga-12 and replaced the rear blade with a fully adjustable pistol type sight for accurate slug shooting. Tactical matches will often have shot and slugs mixed on the same stage.

 

RonSwin

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

What type of rear sight did you use Ronswin? That poor excuse for a rear sight is one of the worst features on the Saiga shotguns. Too wide and no elevation.

[Ronswin 26]

What type of rear sight did you use Ronswin? That poor excuse for a rear sight is one of the worst features on the Saiga shotguns. Too wide and no elevation.

 

Cobra,

I was an LPA low profile sight for I believe a Browning HP model III. I'm going to try and have the rear dovetail opened up for a Ruger 10/22 rear adjustable folding blade sight (3/8 dovetail) that I have laying around. It should also make up for the added height of the russian front sight and I'll be able to lower the front post down a bit.

 

RonSwin

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Cool man thanks. Any way you could post a pic of that? I have an old M-1 two position peep sight I was thinking of doing the same thing with.

[jsr5 0]

Does anyone make a "drop in" pistol grip stock It would seem feasible to mount the pistol grip on the butt stock like say a mossberg or remington stock and leave the action alone. That would probably satisfy me.

[stokstad 4]

Does anyone make a "drop in" pistol grip stock It would seem feasible to mount the pistol grip on the butt stock like say a mossberg or remington stock and leave the action alone. That would probably satisfy me.

 

 

Yes ACE does. But by the time you find enough parts to make the gun 922r compliant its just easier to convert.

[jsr5 0]

Do you have a link to 922r? I thought all that garbage was supposed to end with the AWB when it sunsetted.

[stokstad 4]

Do you have a link to 922r? I thought all that garbage was supposed to end with the AWB when it sunsetted.

 

 

Just do a search on this site there are tons of topics on it probably some stickies as well here is a post talking about what you nwant to do :

 

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=9844&hl=

 

922r is the import ban which basically says that inorder to change the gun from it imported configuration you need to make it compliant or a US made gun. this means that it can have no more than 10 forign parts. An S12 has 13 parts total which means 3 have to be changed. An 7.62x39 rifle has 15 parts I believe and will need 5 parts changed. Its a really dumb law but better safe than sorry

Edited February 21, 2006 by stokstad

[jsr5 0]

Thanks and yes it does sound like a dumb law I can't imagine what purpose it serves.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Does anyone make a "drop in" pistol grip stock It would seem feasible to mount the pistol grip on the butt stock like say a mossberg or remington stock and leave the action alone. That would probably satisfy me.

Do you mean like this one? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8517

[jsr5 0]

Yep pretty much what I'm looking for like to see it in a folding configuration but that's a real good start.

[Bvamp 604]

Thanks and yes it does sound like a dumb law I can't imagine what purpose it serves.

 

 

 

these laws are there masquerading as a means to protect the public from criminals and terrorists with superior firepower. I am one of those that firmly believes the government wants to disarm the public in general, as they know that when they do so, they can do whatever they feel like to us.

 

the only ones these laws hurt are me and you, joe public. the criminals get the shit anyway, and the terrorists will get it too, regardless of what bullshit law is on the books.

 

there should be NO gun laws or regulations other than who has what, nevermind the fact that any and all of them are against mine and your constitutional rights.

[PvtPyle 0]

these laws are there masquerading as a means to protect the public from criminals and terrorists with superior firepower. I am one of those that firmly believes the government wants to disarm the public in general, as they know that when they do so, they can do whatever they feel like to us.

 

I would not say that it is msaquerading as a law to protect the citizens, it is more a law to protect the cops. They dont care if the citizens are out gunned, they dont want to see the citizens outgun the cops. Which when you read the Federalist papers you will realize is EXACTLY the intent of the 2nd Ammendment. It is so that the citizens can keep the cops out gunned and under control. The law abiding citizenry is of no threat to an honest and respectful police department. But when they get out of control as they have done in so many places (LA, NY city, Chicago, small town USA run by the corrupt sherrifs) it is the citizenry's right and responsibility to reign them in. By force if thats what it takes. The same goes for the federal government (which at the time of the writing of the Constitution was their biggest concern, but the trickle down affect applies to the local government as well).

 

Thats why the first thing a corrupt government does is disarm the citizens. It is about people control, not crime control.

 

BTW, the 922 section also outlines the clause about shotguns and a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds. It is about the BS sporting purposes clause. The same clause they used to fuck the street sweeper and SPAS.

[Bvamp 604]

uh, the citizens already outgun the cops. nothing new there.

[PvtPyle 0]

As I said, it is a trickle down for the locals, it was written with a centralized federal government in mind. And in places like Chicago and NY city, the law abiding citizens don't have the cops out gunned. No AW's, and pistols can be difficult to get, and the police forces have a significant amount of select fire weapons. So I would say that in two of the most corrupt cities in America, the cops have the upper hand. My biggest question for those two cities would be, with gun laws the way they are, why do Chicago and NY cops need belt fed weapons? Last time I checked, there were no ground based terrorist threats or attack. The only thing I can think of is for crowd "control" when the law abiding citizen gets fed up and marches on city hall.

 

But we are, the law abiding citizen in this country are far from having the centralized government out gunned. We may have them in numbers, but not in strength or force of arms. And they like it that way.

[Bvamp 604]

well, considering most of the guys in my area that have a gun, have at least ten more, AND most all of those guys served in the military, AND most the police I have seen cant hit shit that isnt a piece of paper sitting still, I will have to disagree with you on that one. they WANT the upper hand. obviously they dont think they have it yet. trust me, in certain areas of the states, the police are WAY outgunned.

 

I do agree with your crowd control theory, though. they just want to be able to kill you if you get to the point that you wont do as you are told and lay down and play dead anymore. there are more americans to pay thier taxes. f it, just kill them.

 

if there is ever a situation where a belt fed machine gun is needed to stop a criminal or terrorist act, I am sure the cops will need more than a belt fed machine gun. like try backup. and a LOT of it.

 

...and thats where the american public comes in. and that is why you have your right to bear arms, also. its not just to help the free squash tyranny, and not just to keep uncle sam in line.

[G O B 3,516]

The intent of the 2nd ammendment is to have the general populace as the 'militia'. The basis is from the colonial regulation that every able bodied man have a serviceable military musket in good working order(Brown Bess, then the state of the art military long arm) and 20 rds, suitable powder and provisions for 3 days AT ALL TIMES!

The right of citizenship was universally understood to be tied to the duty to defend the citizenship.

 

G O B